[Kryptid (OP)]

A study is planned for looking at the vaccination effects on pregnant women: https://newstalkkgvo.com/boeson-research-announces-new-maternal-covid-19-study-for-missoula/

[Zer0]

Hi @Kryptid
😊

The Header(OP) & the Body do not match up.

Imma a bit konfused as to wat 2 respond 2
😑

P.S. - Don't work so hard, take a Break!
🍭

[Kryptid (OP)]

Hi @Kryptid
😊

The Header(OP) & the Body do not match up.

Imma a bit konfused as to wat 2 respond 2
😑

P.S. - Don't work so hard, take a Break!
🍭

I have to admit to being confused as well. Did someone split this from the main thread? Did I somehow do it myself without noticing? Weird.

[evan_au]

I moved this thread to a thread on its own, under COVID-19.
A lot of women were concerned that the initial approvals for COVID-19 vaccines did not include pregnant women or children in their scope.
...evan_au (moderator)

[set fair]

Two from medcram

[Jolly2]

Have there been any studies on any differences between naturally occurring antibodies from infection and the antibodies generated by the mRNA shot?

[evan_au]

Everybody generates a different set of antibodies, based on their "Major Histocompatibility Complex" (MHC) genes.

So you really can't compare the antibodies from two people, one who got a vaccine, and one who was infected with live virus.
- It would be possible to do a partial comparison between inbred mice from the same strain, where all the mice have very similar MHC genes.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_histocompatibility_complex

SARS-CoV-2 has four structural proteins, known as the S (spike), E (envelope), M (membrane), and N (nucleocapsid) proteins; the N protein holds the RNA genome, and the S, E, and M proteins together create the viral envelope

The sort of antibody differences you would expect to see in mice studies between a vaccine and a Wuhan strain infection would be:
- The antibodies against the Spike (S) protein of the vaccine would be similar
- For someone with a live SARS-COV2 infection, you would expect to also see antibodies against the E (envelope) and M (membrane) proteins. (The N protein is hidden inside, and is not so likely to provide a good immune response).
      - This would be similar to the response to a killed virus + adjuvent, like the Chinese vaccine.
- For a vaccine like the AstraZeneca, you would expect to see some antibodies against the chimpanzee adenovirus which is a carrier for the vaccine
     - similarly for the virus used to carry the Russian Sputnik vaccine.
- The RNA vaccines should have a more targetted immune response against just the S protein.
- The advantage of antibodies targeting the S protein is that this will neutralise the virus, preventing it from locking into the ACE2 receptor, and entering a human cell.
- Antibodies targeting the N, E and M proteins would be less likely to block an infection.

Of course, there are more SARS-COV2 variants around now, and these variants will trigger a slightly different set of antibodies than the original Wuhan strain.

[evan_au]

Are COVID-19 Vaccines safe for pregnant women (& their babies)?

There have now been many babies born to vaccinated mums, and vaccination does not seem to impact mothers or babies negatively.
- It has been shown that there are SARS-COV2 antibodies in breast milk, providing protection to the baby

On the other hand, it has been found that SARS-COV2 infection is far more severe in pregnant women, perhaps because they are partially immune-suppressed when pregnant. Outcomes are far worse for both mother and baby.

So if you are thinking of getting pregnant, or already pregnant - get vaccinated!

[Jolly2]

Everybody generates a different set of antibodies, based on their "Major Histocompatibility Complex" (MHC) genes.

So you really can't compare the antibodies from two people, one who got a vaccine, and one who was infected with live virus.
- It would be possible to do a partial comparison between inbred mice from the same strain, where all the mice have very similar MHC genes.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_histocompatibility_complex

SARS-CoV-2 has four structural proteins, known as the S (spike), E (envelope), M (membrane), and N (nucleocapsid) proteins; the N protein holds the RNA genome, and the S, E, and M proteins together create the viral envelope

The sort of antibody differences you would expect to see in mice studies between a vaccine and a Wuhan strain infection would be:
- The antibodies against the Spike (S) protein of the vaccine would be similar
- For someone with a live SARS-COV2 infection, you would expect to also see antibodies against the E (envelope) and M (membrane) proteins. (The N protein is hidden inside, and is not so likely to provide a good immune response).
      - This would be similar to the response to a killed virus + adjuvent, like the Chinese vaccine.
- For a vaccine like the AstraZeneca, you would expect to see some antibodies against the chimpanzee adenovirus which is a carrier for the vaccine
     - similarly for the virus used to carry the Russian Sputnik vaccine.
- The RNA vaccines should have a more targetted immune response against just the S protein.
- The advantage of antibodies targeting the S protein is that this will neutralise the virus, preventing it from locking into the ACE2 receptor, and entering a human cell.
- Antibodies targeting the N, E and M proteins would be less likely to block an infection.

Of course, there are more SARS-COV2 variants around now, and these variants will trigger a slightly different set of antibodies than the original Wuhan strain.

Surely the best response is to simply make an inactived vaccine with all the current variants present? Might take a bit more time to inactivate the new strains and add them but surely is a better solution.

Are there any potencial complications if different inactivated mutations are injected together? I could see less virus particles for each mutation could potentially lead to less antibodies creation for each, but once the body has seen them natural immunity will kick in anyway.

[CliffordK]

Are COVID-19 Vaccines safe for pregnant women (& their babies)?

There have now been many babies born to vaccinated mums, and vaccination does not seem to impact mothers or babies negatively.
- It has been shown that there are SARS-COV2 antibodies in breast milk, providing protection to the baby

On the other hand, it has been found that SARS-COV2 infection is far more severe in pregnant women, perhaps because they are partially immune-suppressed when pregnant. Outcomes are far worse for both mother and baby.

So if you are thinking of getting pregnant, or already pregnant - get vaccinated!

The medical community still remembers the Thalidomide disaster, and at least initially was very careful vaccinations while pregnant. 

I would have to think the number of women giving birth after getting the vaccine during the very critical first trimester is still limited. 

Keep in mind that we have several different classes of COVID vaccine available. 

Personally I wouldn't encourage a woman thinking of getting pregnant or in her first trimester to take the AstraZenica, and perhaps not the J&J vaccines.  The potential of vascular involvement would make me nervous, especially when there are better alternative vaccines available.   

[set fair]

Have there been any studies on any differences between naturally occurring antibodies from infection and the antibodies generated by the mRNA shot?

 

Very important question and diserves an answer. I haven't come across a definitive study. Assays to count anyibody levels seem to be an art as much as science, different assays give different results and the same assay in a different lab can give a different answer. And the study would need to be done for at least a six month period. A more severe illness correlates with higher antibody levels so that's a confounder. There will also be people who  have been infected and then vaccinated but don't know they were infected. And of course there are so many vaccines. So nobody knows.

[set fair]

Surely the best response is to simply make an inactived vaccine with all the current variants present? Might take a bit more time to inactivate the new strains and add them but surely is a better solution.

Vaccinating with just the spike protein was questionable but seems to have worked well. I would prefer to have an inactived or live attenuated jab for my secind shot. There are sensible reasons for this but of course this wasn't studied in the trials leading up to use authorisation, There is a trial of this https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-02-04-oxford-leads-first-trial-investigating-dosing-alternating-vaccines, most (all?) trials only enroll folk from proscribed areas so volunteering doesn't guarantee you get on the trial.

[evan_au]

Are COVID-19 Vaccines safe for pregnant women (& their babies)?

Chris Smith addressed this topic on talk-back radio. To summarize:
- we now know that COVID-19 infection leads to very bad outcomes for mother and baby
- we now know that COVID-19 vaccines are far better for both mother and baby

Listen, starting at 7 minutes: https://www.thenakedscientists.com/podcasts/ask-naked-scientists/why-wont-water-burn