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  4. How do Electrons Cancel?
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How do Electrons Cancel?

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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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How do Electrons Cancel?
« on: 20/01/2022 17:53:19 »
In the double slit experiment for photons we have photons cancelling anti-photons. But the same can't happen in the case of electrons. How do the probabilities of two waves cancel?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #1 on: 20/01/2022 18:18:31 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 20/01/2022 17:53:19
In the double slit experiment for photons we have photons cancelling anti-photons.
Not really.
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Offline Kryptid

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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #2 on: 20/01/2022 19:00:52 »
Photons are their own antiparticle, but antiparticles aren't involved in such double slit experiments anyway.
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Offline Origin

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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #3 on: 20/01/2022 19:14:59 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 20/01/2022 17:53:19
How do the probabilities of two waves cancel?
I think the question is how do 2 waves cancel each other, the answer is it is just normal wave interference.  Probabilities can't cancel.
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Online evan_au

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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #4 on: 20/01/2022 19:42:24 »
Quote from: talanum1
How do the probabilities of two waves cancel?
Every particle (eg photon or electron) has a quantum wave function (I see physicists tend to run it together as "wavefunction").
- This represents the amplitude, phase, position of that particle at a particular time.
- To see what happens to the particle, you follow the evolution of that wavefunction over time.
- When this wavefunction strikes the double-slit experiment apparatus, the amplitude and phase of the wavefunction on the detector screen takes a more complex form than if the source just illuminated the screen (with no slits in-between).
- This is because the wavefunction interferes with itself.
- The wavefunction can have 0° phase or 180° phase (or anywhere in-between), with a high amplitude. But when parts of the wavefunction meet, the amplitude may be increased (constructive interference) or reduced ( destructive interference), perhaps even to 0 amplitude.
- You can calculate the probability of the particle being found at a particular position on the detector screen by taking the square of the wavefunction (ie measure it's amplitude2 after cancellation).

So it is not a matter of photons & antiphotons or electrons & positrons cancelling, it is because the wavefunction cancels.

This still works if there is only one particle at a time in the apparatus, because the wavefunction of that particle cancels itself.
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #5 on: 22/01/2022 14:42:53 »
Light is a real physical wave made of photons and anti-photons while an electron wave is only a wave of probability. By the way, my model of particles predicts that photons and anti-photons are not the same particles. You could see that that way a photon and anti-photon cancel, while if they are the same, momentum does not cancel.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #6 on: 22/01/2022 14:48:33 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 22/01/2022 14:42:53
Light is a real physical wave made of photons and anti-photons
No
Quote from: talanum1 on 22/01/2022 14:42:53
By the way, my model of particles predicts that photons and anti-photons are not the same particles.
Then it is wrong.
(Though we already knew that).
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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #7 on: 22/01/2022 16:01:34 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 22/01/2022 14:42:53
while an electron wave is only a wave of probability.
No.  An electron is neither a wave nor a particle.  An electron has has aspects of a wave and aspects of a particle.  A wave of probability is meaningless. 
Making up absurd stuff is kind of fun, but learning about physics also fun not to mention rewarding, you should try it.
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #8 on: 22/01/2022 16:10:04 »
One can see with my model that if photons and anti-photons didn't encode momentum in complimentary ways, they would not fully cancel.
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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #9 on: 22/01/2022 17:54:45 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 22/01/2022 16:10:04
One can see with my model that if photons and anti-photons didn't encode momentum in complimentary ways, they would not fully cancel.
You don't have a model, you have a WAG, and you have been shown over and over that your WAG is wrong.
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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #10 on: 22/01/2022 20:24:30 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 22/01/2022 14:42:53
By the way, my model of particles predicts that photons and anti-photons are not the same particles.

What are the differences?
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #11 on: 23/01/2022 08:05:35 »
An anti-photon is a photon turned through 180 degrees and with momentum encoded with added points of space instead of with left-out points.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #12 on: 23/01/2022 10:19:20 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 23/01/2022 08:05:35
added points of space instead of with left-out points.
That's still meaningless.
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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #13 on: 23/01/2022 14:39:13 »
How do you tell the difference between a photon and anti-photon with a particle detector?
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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #14 on: 23/01/2022 20:51:25 »
Quote from: talanum1
An anti-photon
A laser beam produces coherent photons of a single wavelength (and energy and phase, if it is a high-quality laser).

Does a laser beam produce anti-photons, in your theory?

What happens when this monochromatic light from a laser hits a double-slit experiment? The conventional theory shows how the wavefunction of the photons produces bright and dark bands behind the slits. No anti-photons needed, just a 180° phase shift of "normal" photons from the laser.

Quote
an electron wave is only a wave of probability
An electron wavefunction has all the properties of a real electron (or anti-electron=positron).
- That includes charge, velocity, momentum, position, and phase
- as well as the fact that if you measure the position accurately, you can't measure the momentum accurately (Heisenberg's uncertainty principle).
- And it can also tell you what is the probability of finding the electron at a particular position. It doesn't just tell you this probability.

The double-slit experiment on photons is essentially the same as the double-slit experiment on electrons (taking into account their different wavelengths).
- It is essentially self-interference by the wavefunction, in both cases
- If your theory requires anti-photons in one case, why doesn't it require anti-electrons in the other case?
- The presence of anti-electrons is indicated by bursts of gamma rays, so anti-electrons clearly aren't present....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #15 on: 24/01/2022 09:55:55 »
Quote from: Kryptid on 23/01/2022 14:39:13
How do you tell the difference between a photon and anti-photon with a particle detector?

It can be detected indirectly by noting a photon disappeared.

Quote from: evan_au on 23/01/2022 20:51:25
Does a laser beam produce anti-photons, in your theory?

Yes it produces alternating photons and anti-photons. They don't annihilate because they don't overlap but goes along at the same velocity.

Quote from: evan_au on 23/01/2022 20:51:25
The double-slit experiment on photons is essentially the same as the double-slit experiment on electrons

Then we must be consistent and call the photon waves: waves of probability.
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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #16 on: 24/01/2022 10:13:41 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 24/01/2022 09:55:55
It can be detected indirectly by noting a photon disappeared.
They don't disappear.
Sometimes they get absorbed by stuff.


Quote from: talanum1 on 24/01/2022 09:55:55
Then we must be consistent and call the photon waves: waves of probability.
I would agree with you but, if I did that, we would both be wrong.

Why would it be better to be consistently inacurate?
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #17 on: 24/01/2022 10:52:43 »
I got a photon and anti-photon drawn here in the attachment:


* Photon, anti-photon.png (2.83 kB . 202x327 - viewed 609 times)
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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #18 on: 24/01/2022 11:54:09 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 24/01/2022 10:52:43
I got a photon and anti-photon drawn here in the attachment:


* Photon, anti-photon.png (2.83 kB . 202x327 - viewed 609 times)
That picture is meaningless.
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Re: How do Electrons Cancel?
« Reply #19 on: 24/01/2022 20:05:54 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 24/01/2022 09:55:55
It can be detected indirectly by noting a photon disappeared.

Why can't it be detected directly?
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