[Mike Gale]

Putting it in easy perspective, you can observe the ''empty'' space in a box or you would not know it was ''empty''.

Observing the wall of the box tells you nothing about the intervening space. Space could be curled up seven ways from Sunday; you'd never know the difference because light follows the curvature of space. The only way to determine if the box is empty is to measure its mass.

[guest39538]

Putting it in easy perspective, you can observe the ''empty'' space in a box or you would not know it was ''empty''.

Observing the wall of the box tells you nothing about the intervening space. Space could be curled up seven ways from Sunday; you'd never know the difference because light follows the curvature of space. The only way to determine if the box is empty is to measure its mass.

Observing the wall of the box allows you to observe the length of space between you and the wall of the box.  For the space can be measured and the wall can be measured to be in exact geometrical position relative to the observer.   You do not need your eyes to observe space, motion is proof that space exists between you and the wall of the box.
You can see space because it is not reflecting light, if it were not for this , you would not see things that do reflect light.

[guest39538]

Light couples the brain to matter, sight is live, remove away the matter and the coupling is broke, hence we see darkness although it is light.


Understand the two twins decide to measure time using a time measure, twin 2 departs with the 0 end in his hand and off he goes into deep space.

The reason they do this is because they both agree they must an equal length apart to return in an equal time tot he present and each other.

Twin two can not be 2016 why twin one is in 2017 because time ran slower for him.

[Mike Gale]

Light is just one way to ascertain the location of the wall. Your arm will do just as well. Both of them must follow the curvature of space. Have you read Flatland?

[guest39538]

Light is just one way to ascertain the location of the wall. Your arm will do just as well. Both of them must follow the curvature of space. Have you read Flatland?

I have not heard of or read Flatland, is it any good?

[Colin2B]

I have not heard of or read Flatland, is it any good?

Very good, well worth a read. You can take it at face value as an interesting view of 4d perspective from a 3D world, or you can, on a different level, see the social comment on those times.

[GoC]

Yes your angles can be dangerous.

[puppypower]

Time propagates to the future, never to repeat itself. Yet clocks, which we use to measure time, are cyclic, which is not how time propagates. The theory of reincarnation is how clock express time, allowing one to return to a rebirth at midnight, each day.

Science is using the wrong tool to measure time, thereby leading to conceptual confusion. The tool needs to reflect the nature of the phenomena and not reflect a different phenomena. Cycling, like clocks do, is closer to wave motion and energy; wavelength, d and frequency, t.  Clocks simulate express time and distance; oops!

The topic, the speed of time, is really about expressing time as a composite of distance and time, that has been conceptually biased by the tool choice of the traditions. Clocks were designed with human productivity in mind, allowing us to repeat out tasks in a coordinated way. But that is still not how time propagates except in an artificial way to maximize profits. 

Time is better expressed by a mono directional concept, like entropy, instead of a two directional concept like cyclic waves. The entropy of the universe always increases; 2nd law, meaning it propagates, like time, to the future and not also the past. Energy can go both ways as long as it is conserved.

A better clock that reflects the nature of time, would be the dead fish clock. We take a dead fish and measure time based on when it starts to stink. Like the nature of time, the dead fish can only go one way; decay. We can't reverse or un-stink the decaying fish and reuse it tomorrow. The stink does not cycle and repeat like a clock. Each day you will need a new fish, just as time is new each day.

Interestingly, the dead fish clock can be made to run slower, not only with relativity, but it can also be made to run slower via refrigeration. The dead fish clock, conceptually implies an equivalency between heat and relativity. Or relativity has a connection to an energy balance.

Relative reference does not use an energy balance, but is an artifact of the wrong tool; 2-D.

[kymere]

Time is solely relevant to the observers position in a gravitational field and relativity to the objects being observed. I've posted a hypothesis potentially explaining the three dimensional reality of space-time fabric that we live in which is enacted upon by four dimensional forces and energy.

[Mike Gale]

The dead fish clock is a good analogy for the arrow of time, but the decay process involves atomic oscillations. The level of stinkiness is just a way of counting oscillations.

[guest39538]

Time is solely relevant to the observers position in a gravitational field and relativity to the objects being observed. I've posted a hypothesis potentially explaining the three dimensional reality of space-time fabric that we live in which is enacted upon by four dimensional forces and energy.

Only if we measured time correctly would that be true.   Unfortunately we do not measure time correctly.

[guest39538]

The dead fish clock is a good analogy for the arrow of time, but the decay process involves atomic oscillations. The level of stinkiness is just a way of counting oscillations.

A dead fish clock, lol,

[Colin2B]

Yes your angles can be dangerous.

A very acute observation. Is it a pointed comment?
Maybe a little obtuse for the current discussion

[guest39538]

Yes your angles can be dangerous.

A very acute observation. Is it a pointed comment?
Maybe a little obtuse for the current discussion

I did not understand lol

[guest39538]

After several discussions,  my conclusion and I feel a must be...


The rate of time/entropy is at the speed of light. The rate of time being defined by input rather than entropy output. All observers experiences an equal synchronous rate of time/entropy because c is constant. I feel we wrongly consider the output of the Caesium and ignore the synchronous input.

An assumption and speculation would be that time slows down in the dark.

This may sound wack, in gardening, time can be slowed down for the plant by decreasing the light wattage.

Added- I know you like formulas etc, so I suppose I had better put one for time.


R_t=(hf/S)/S

Where R is rate and t is time and hf is high frequency and S is entropy. 


I consider the above to be accurately true.

We must also consider that the rate of time is relative to the rate of time of space, which is 0. That is why and how we can measure time, space being the 0 comparative of relativity. Everything is relative to 0.


added note - Space has no entropy and can not hold an entropy, space allows permeate , objects hold energy.
Energy permeates through the S of objects...hmmmm.

more note -  space can not be configured in more than one way.

more note - Matter pertains hf , space can not, there is no mechanism to pertain hf. Fields pertain hf...hmmm.

[guest39538]

Just had this other thought on other forum.

Time is constant, reference frames are the variant.

If m₁=m₂  and m₁S=m₂S  and m₁dx=m₂dx   then m₁R_t=m₂R_t  because c is constant and the rate of S would always be equal.

[puppypower]

Time is solely relevant to the observers position in a gravitational field and relativity to the objects being observed. I've posted a hypothesis potentially explaining the three dimensional reality of space-time fabric that we live in which is enacted upon by four dimensional forces and energy.

The way we measure time is based on cyclic clocks, which is not how time behaves and propagates. Time moves forward, never to repeat. This is due to the second law, which requires entropy increase over time. Therefore even if we return to the place we were born, we don't cycle as a new child, like a clock at midnight. Time, in this special case, would be more like a helix, seen from above, where the z-axis can't be seen. The change in z prevents us from being reincarnated like clock time.

Cyclic events, like a wave clock, require two dimensions to be fully expressed; distance and time. What that means is all the functions of time F(t), we use in all science equations, actually express time, with space-time (d,t) and not just time. This is an implied, but a never spoken assumption, based on how we measure time. The idea of the speed of time is a good intuition of this unspoken affect, since time is being express as F(d/t); speed. This may be taboo to say but this is naked science.

The reason this is so, is because we measure the material objects of the universe, indirectly, based on their emitted and/or reflected energy. Science uses an energy middleman to speak for the main man. When we look at the sun, what reaches our eyes or our telescope is the energy that the sun gave off, minutes before. We do not directly measure the sun by its matter. The solar wind moves much slower than energy and sort of limits us to the surface of the sun. The energy can tell us things of the core.

The net effect is we infer the state matter, from its energy signal. This 2-D (space-time dependent) energy middleman is where all the problems of simultaneity and reference, appear. Energy is relative to observational reference, while mass is an invariant. We try to infer an invariant using a relative variant.

For example, when a hydrogen atoms lowers potential and gives off a quanta of energy, this quantum can blue or red shift based on relative motion and GR. However, the hydrogen atoms remains the same hydrogen no matter what your reference is. The law of physics do not change with reference. We cannot turn that hydrogen into helium simply by us moving or using a clever reference. Matter can act simultaneously, but the energy we use to infer, has relative reference  limitations. This, I believe, is what Einstein really meant; reference is relative for energy inference, but laws are the same for matter.

The dead fish clock is different from the traditional wave clock because it measures entropy, which is a state variable, connected to a particular state of matter. This is the original definition of entropy and should not be confused with cyclic clock definitions.

The stink of the dead fish clock is connected to the concentration of odor particles that reach our nose. This is not connected to energy waves. Waves are secondary to the chemical particles. This clock requires a more direct connection to matter. It uses a different sense; smell, rather than the eyes, and therefore measures matter instead of energy. It is based on chemicals binding to enzymes with lock and key precision.This causes a secondary energy signal to the brain. The number of molecules, a fish clock can give off at time=t is an invariant.

The entropy clock is based on entropy, which is a state variable, the value of which is dependent on the state of the matter. For entropy to increase, matter needs to absorb energy/heat. This is why the time, as expressed by the entropy clock, will change based on whether it is hot or cold; level of energy. Entropy, in many ways, is a bridge concept between matter and energy, since the entree change of matter needs the absorption of heat or energy.

In that sense, the dead fish clock, by being a bridge between matter and energy, defines t as F(d,t,t), instead of F(d,t) used by cyclic wave clocks, based on waves and energy. It is connected to acceleration, instead of velocity based on dimensional analysis. This is still not pure time, but is 66% time instead of 50%. It is an upgrade, but it also adds complexity to the analysis.

In other words, matter is influenced by the forces of nature, which create acceleration in matter. Energy appears as a side affect of the forces acting upon matter; hydrogen atom lowering energy levels. The forces of nature helps to define which states of matter are possible, and therefore helps to define the quantized limits of entropy, that go hand in hand with the emitted quanta of energy, which appear as matter changes state.

If you wish to go all the way to a function of pure time, while also lowering the complexity, you need to leave the limitations of inertial reference, and use the speed of light as the ground state. It may be easier, to use the entropy clock bridge, first so you can see the other side from a distance.
   

[Mike Gale]

The entropy clock is ultimately based on reciprocal motion. Entropy represents the number of possible configurations of microscopic objects in a macroscopic system. The rate of change of entropy is inversely proportional to temperature (or rather temperature gradient.) Temperature is a measure of the kinetic energy of the microscopic objects as they bounce around inside the macroscopic system. The bouncing is tantamount to reciprocal motion for the purposes of time keeping. The reason why an entropy clock like the dead fish is irreversible is that it radiates energy (and information.)

[guest4091]

page 3
questionable quotes:

I agree there is no absolute reference frame.

The emission of light could define an absolute frame since events don't move, but it leaves no marker to serve as a reference. The cmb has been suggested as such.

/the speed of time is one second per second

that is not a definition, it's a tautology, and the worst type, without even comparing two different but similar words, along with "it is what it is" and "when they're gone they're gone".

/Einstein suggested all views are equally valid. Interestingly enough this allows that no view is valid.

valid relative to the frame where the view originates.

/The measured speed of light is unambiguous. The distance measured is ambiguous.

After looking up "ambiguous" and finding these definitions,

1.  having more than one meaning: having more than one possible meaning or interpretation
an ambiguous response
2.  causing uncertainty: causing uncertainty or confusion
an ambiguous result
 
it shouldn't apply to any measurement, unless someone suspects an error.

/Putting it in easy perspective, you can observe the ''empty'' space in a box or you would not know it was ''empty''.

It's not empty, but full of air!

/ Light couples the brain to matter, sight is live, remove away the matter and the coupling is broke, hence we see darkness although it is light.

to see: the awareness of the mind of the extended world beyond the mind through processing sensory data in the form of light.

/Twin two can not be 2016 why twin one is in 2017 because time ran slower for him.

They will return to the same location, but their clocks will have accumulated different quantities of ticks, because the faster a clock moves, the slower it counts ticks.

/Time propagates to the future, never to repeat itself. Yet clocks, which we use to measure time, are cyclic, which is not how time propagates. The theory of
reincarnation is how clock express time, allowing one to return to a rebirth at midnight, each day.

Clocks count clock events (ticks), which serves as a standard for recording events of interest. Just as in math, cycles in counting are practical and convenient. Without place values, the symbol set would have to expand for large values. Eg. hexadecimal requires six additional symbols to the base ten system. A clock still accumulates intervals from  seconds,..., to years. There are cycles but the accumulation is unidirectional.
Midnight repeats but it's a new day.

/ The entropy of the universe always increases;

Not while there are organizing processes like plant, animal, and human growth, star and galaxy formation, volcanic land formation.

[LB7]

"but it leaves no marker to serve as a reference"

If I'm right, there is a reference, if there is a symmetrical rotation of the time-particle then the time is the speed of light. And it is possible to measure the absolute velocity (translation), for that, measure the deformation of the rotation of the time-particle.