Naked Science Forum
Life Sciences => Physiology & Medicine => Topic started by: thedoc on 08/06/2016 12:50:02
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Peter A. Blacksberg asked the Naked Scientists:
http://www.molecularhydrogenfoundation.org/frequent-qa/
Dear critical thinking believers in science. Naked or / not. People are making claims about "hydrogen infused water" as a cure all. We believe the only cure is in the pockets of the purveyors of the products.
Please debunk this for the unsuspecting public.
With respect and admiration.
Peter
What do you think?
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Does hydrogen infused water have any health benefits?
When you consider the proclaimed mechanism of action for "hydrogen-infused water", you'll see that the entire concept is contingent on it's antioxidant capacity -- of which is not even remotely comparable to other antioxidant supplements.
Also note, any of these companies selling hydrogen water are likely using en vitro and/or rodent model-based research to support their claims. The animal diets used in these experiments are completely devoid of antioxidants for an extended period of time, then they introduce the hydrogen water to remediate the antioxidant deficit.
So bottom line, if drinking was the only way to get my antioxidants..... I'd buy orange juice.
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Utter, barefaced bullshit. But what do I know? I'm only a medical physicist, not an advertising copywriter.
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Those of us who do actual medicine upon actual patients are well aware of the importance of belief in any therapeutic modality.
For example, I have known patients who were convinced that any doctor who didn't give them a shot of vitamin B-12 up front on demand was a quack. You could not address their complaints without first injecting 5-6 ml. of Normal Saline in their butts. So would I use "Hydrogen Water" in certain clinical milieus? You better believe it.
Parenthetically when AIDS was stalking the land "Ozone Water" was in vogue. If it made a dying ( or just frightened silly) patient feel better then it qualified as therapy in the book of any decent clinician.
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Utter, barefaced bullshit. But what do I know? I'm only a medical physicist, not an advertising copywriter.
I don't always agree with Alan, but he's bang on with this assessment.
The claim is utter dross. The fact that it is also exploitative does little to help.
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The solubility of Hydrogen in water is 160μg of Hydrogen gas in 100g of water.
See: http://www.wiredchemist.com/chemistry/data/solubilities-gases
You actually need to get molecular hydrogen & oxygen fairly hot before they will react (eg with a flame or a spark). This isn't going to happen when they are dissolved in water. If dissolved hydrogen does not actually react with oxygen, so you can't call it an antioxidant.
I understand that some anaerobic bacteria are able to metabolize hydrogen. Perhaps after you drink your 160μg of dissolved hydrogen, some bacteria in your small intestine might make a small meal of it?
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[???]
You actually need to get molecular hydrogen & oxygen fairly hot before they will react (eg with a flame or a spark). This isn't going to happen when they are dissolved in water.
Hydrogen water can be made by several methods, including dissolving hydrogen gas in water under high pressure, dissolving electrolyzed H2 in water, and by the reaction of magnesium metal with water.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3257754/
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Forasmuch as the NHS reimburses for Homeopathic treatment in the UK under certain circumstances, however ludicrous it may seem to a rational person, I see no reason to look down your nose at "Hydrogen Water".
At least it is non addictive, which puts it head and shoulders above Oxycodone.
I doubt you would ever see a newspaper headline about the "hydrogen water" menace.
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I understand that some anaerobic bacteria are able to metabolize hydrogen.
...in fact, bacteria in the gut produce hydrogen; a high proportion of farts is hydrogen gas. So the contribution from the water is inconsequential up against the volumes of "fart hydrogen" a person produces each week...
Thus, baked beans would probably be a better prescription...
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Peter A. Blacksberg asked the Naked Scientists:
Dear critical thinking believers in science. Naked or / not. People are making claims about "hydrogen infused water" as a cure all. We believe the only cure is in the pockets of the purveyors of the products.
Please debunk this for the unsuspecting public.
With respect and admiration.
Peter
What do you think?
I am confused by your comment. I went to the MHF website and they are a science-based nonprofit and don't sell anything. Perhaps even more the article does not say hydrogen is a "cure-all" in fact, it specifically states that it is not, and that a lot more research needs to be done. They also scientifically refute a number of fallacies like "microclustered water" perhaps better than anywhere else.
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Does hydrogen infused water have any health benefits?
When you consider the proclaimed mechanism of action for "hydrogen-infused water", you'll see that the entire concept is contingent on it's antioxidant capacity -- of which is not even remotely comparable to other antioxidant supplements.
Also note, any of these companies selling hydrogen water are likely using en vitro and/or rodent model-based research to support their claims. The animal diets used in these experiments are completely devoid of antioxidants for an extended period of time, then they introduce the hydrogen water to remediate the antioxidant deficit.
So bottom line, if drinking was the only way to get my antioxidants..... I'd buy orange juice.
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Apparently you haven't read a single one of those 500+ studies. Yes, most of them are just animal models with few human studies (≈20), but none of them fed the animals diets devoid of antioxidants. Also if you read the article on the MHF website "what is molecular hydrogen", it states that the mechanism of action is NOT antioxidant. Please read that article first...
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Utter, barefaced bullshit. But what do I know? I'm only a medical physicist, not an advertising copywriter.
I don't always agree with Alan, but he's bang on with this assessment.
The claim is utter dross. The fact that it is also exploitative does little to help.
It is a fair concern with hydrogen being explosive, but the MHF website clearly explains that the articles published in Nature and others use hydrogen at levels below the flammability level. You'll have to actually read the article on the website....
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I understand that some anaerobic bacteria are able to metabolize hydrogen.
...in fact, bacteria in the gut produce hydrogen; a high proportion of farts is hydrogen gas. So the contribution from the water is inconsequential up against the volumes of "fart hydrogen" a person produces each week...
Thus, baked beans would probably be a better prescription...
The MHF website addresses the bacterially produced hydrogen also, and an article from I believe Nature talks about the dosing enigmas of hydrogen dissolved water and bacterially produced, showing that intermittent exposure is more effective from hydrogen water.
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dosing enigmas of hydrogen dissolved water
Should that be "enemas"?
Sounds less pleasant than drinking it...
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the article on the MHF website "what is molecular hydrogen", it states that the mechanism of action is NOT antioxidant. Please read that article first...
lol.... There is a plethora of peer-reviewed studies which demonstrate my point - including the website you just used as a reference: http://www.molecularhydrogenfoundation.org/what-is-molecular-hydrogen/
"It wasn’t until 2007, when an article was published in Nature Medicine,5 which showed the [selective antioxidant properties] and antiapoptotic (anti-cell death) activity of molecular hydrogen, that the biomedical field took strong interest in hydrogen’s therapeutic potential. Prior to 2007, only 50 articles were published regarding hydrogen as a medical gas, compared to over 500 articles within the past seven years."
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Apparently you haven't read a single one of those 500+ studies.
none of them fed the animals diets devoid of antioxidants.
You wanna bet? Try me.
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Does hydrogen infused water have any health benefits?
Marginal at best.
Is it a cure-all? = Definitely not
Are the benefits worth paying for? = Definitely not
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At least it is non addictive, which puts it head and shoulders above Oxycodone.
I doubt you would ever see a newspaper headline about the "hydrogen water" menace.
Why are you comparing the dynamics of an antioxidant to a narcotic?
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I am confused by your comment. I went to the MHF website and they are a science-based nonprofit and don't sell anything.
Allow me to clarify.... since you apparently didn't do any research:
Molecular Hydrogen Foundation founder: Tyler Lebaron
US Patent #14/922,767
Inventors: Mikhail Kazakevitch, Tyler LeBaron
Hydrogen-generating effervescent tablet and methods therefor
US 20160113865 A1
ABSTRACT
Convenient, inexpensive and portable effervescent tablets that the consumer can add to water to generate hydrogen-rich water just prior to drinking.
https://www.google.com/patents/US20160113865
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they are a science-based nonprofit and don't sell anything.
They also scientifically refute a number of fallacies perhaps better than anywhere else.
the MHF website clearly explains
The MHF website addresses the bacterially produced hydrogen
500+ studies most of them are just animal models with few human studies (≈20), but none of them fed the animals diets devoid of antioxidants.
Just an observation here:
You curiously seem to know quite a bit about MHF, and your use of (≈20).... and the fact that you imply to have read all 500+ studies.... suggests you are involved in R&D.
Carry on.
~
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Molecular Hydrogen Foundation founder: Tyler Lebaron
US Patent #14/922,767
Inventors: Mikhail Kazakevitch, Tyler LeBaron
Hydrogen-generating effervescent tablet and methods therefor
US 20160113865 A1
ABSTRACT
Convenient, inexpensive and portable effervescent tablets that the consumer can add to water to generate hydrogen-rich water just prior to drinking.
https://www.google.com/patents/US20160113865
Good investigative research.
So I assume you wouldnt say they are an independent authority? [:)]
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Good investigative research.
Thank you. Google is responsible though. It's just a matter of using key search criteria.
So I assume you wouldnt say they are an independent authority? [:)]
The way I see it, MHF is just a foundation with a vested interest. They're not an authority on anything.
The founder likely has more conflicts of interests, but I didn't even bother searching.
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the article on the MHF website "what is molecular hydrogen", it states that the mechanism of action is NOT antioxidant. Please read that article first...
lol.... There is a plethora of peer-reviewed studies which demonstrate my point - including the website you just used as a reference:
"It wasn’t until 2007, when an article was published in Nature Medicine,5 which showed the [selective antioxidant properties] and antiapoptotic (anti-cell death) activity of molecular hydrogen, that the biomedical field took strong interest in hydrogen’s therapeutic potential. Prior to 2007, only 50 articles were published regarding hydrogen as a medical gas, compared to over 500 articles within the past seven years."
hmm...well I was referring to the the article entitled "Hydrogen: an emerging medical gas" which you get to from the home page by clicking on "what is molecular hydrogen". That article states: "In short, we consider it inaccurate or at least incomplete to claim that the benefits of hydrogen are due to its acting directly as a powerful antioxidant. Indeed, hydrogen is selective because it is a very weak antioxidant and thus does not neutralize important ROS or disturb important biological signaling molecules."... but I guess it could seem a bit contradictory perhaps...my only point was that the article said that the basis was more about "cell modulation" then as an antioxidant...
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Apparently you haven't read a single one of those 500+ studies.
none of them fed the animals diets devoid of antioxidants.
You wanna bet? Try me.
Well... I guess I personally do not know for sure, but I emailed MHF and asked them if the studies on hydrogen were all done by feeding animals diets devoid of antioxidants in the first place. Their response was that they were not aware of any animal studies on hydrogen where that practice was used, and referenced the Nature Medicine publication where "inhalation of 2-4% hydrogen gas significantly reduced the cerebral infarct volumes in a rat model of ischemia-reperfusion injury induced by middle cerebral artery occlusion"... anyways, if you know any article where that practice was done with hydrogen gas, I would like to ask them about it. I tried searching and couldn't find any, but not sure what key terms to use.
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they are a science-based nonprofit and don't sell anything.
They also scientifically refute a number of fallacies perhaps better than anywhere else.
the MHF website clearly explains
The MHF website addresses the bacterially produced hydrogen
500+ studies most of them are just animal models with few human studies (≈20), but none of them fed the animals diets devoid of antioxidants.
Just an observation here:
You curiously seem to know quite a bit about MHF, and your use of (≈20).... and the fact that you imply to have read all 500+ studies.... suggests you are involved in R&D.
Carry on.
~
Actually after seeing this thread and being marginally familiar with the area, I just emailed MHF direct, specifically I was interested to know if it were true about all the studies just feeding animals food devoid of antioxidants, and then brought up a few of the other points mentioned here. They said that their needs to be a lot more research done, and that hydrogen is not a cure all, and that there are only ≈20 human studies which are reputable, but small (less than 100 people). I asked them what products they recommend, and they said that they are a science-based nonprofit and do not sell or recommend products, but suggest that I do my own research if I decide to try hydrogen products....now that I know that he helped make the those tablets, I am going to see if they are on the market yet.
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That article states: "In short, we consider it inaccurate or at least incomplete to claim that the benefits of hydrogen are due to its acting directly as a powerful antioxidant.
Indeed, hydrogen is selective because it is a very weak antioxidant and thus does not neutralize important ROS or disturb important biological signaling molecules."
J Clin Biochem Nutr. 2010 Mar; 46(2): 140–149.
Published online 2010 Feb 24. doi: 10.3164/jcbn.09-100
PMCID: PMC2831093
Effectiveness of Hydrogen Rich Water on Antioxidant Status of Subjects with Potential Metabolic Syndrome—An Open Label Pilot Study
In this study, we demonstrated that drinking hydrogen rich water increased urinary anti-oxidant enzyme SOD, an endogenous defensive system against ROS-induced cellular injury, associated with reduction of oxidative stress markers, in subjects with metabolic syndrome [7]. SOD plays an important role in the antioxidant defense system against superoxide anion (O2−) generated in vivo and is involved in defense against many diseases [20–22]. Our data demonstrated that subjects consuming hydrogen rich water for 8 weeks showed significantly increased SOD levels from baseline to week 8, suggesting that hydrogen rich water is capable of inducing SOD activity. Although the detailed mechanisms are undefined an increase in SOD levels correlated with decreasing trends in 8-OHdG levels, and thus supported our hypothesis that oxidative stress is reduced by consuming hydrogen rich water.
In conclusion, consumption of hydrogen rich water generated via a magnesium stick demonstrated improvement in the levels of oxidative stress markers associated with metabolic syndrome and boosted the body’s antioxidant activity. Hydrogen rich water represents a potentially novel therapeutic and preventive strategy for the treatment of metabolic syndrome. This method of delivery was advantageous as magnesium sticks are portable and proved to be an easy and safe administration of hydrogen rich water for daily consumption.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831093/
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now that I know that he helped make the those tablets, I am going to see if they are on the market yet.
Why?
Significantly more effective supplements are already available.
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I emailed MHF and asked them if the studies on hydrogen were all done by feeding animals diets devoid of antioxidants in the first place. Their response was that they were not aware of any animal studies on hydrogen where that practice was used
The standard rodent chow diet used in studies is devoid of any appreciable antioxidant activity.
Nonetheless, the premise is simple with these type of studies:
You take a disease rodent model or a toxin-induced rodent model with a compromised immune system, and you introduce an exogenous antioxidant source to determine it's effectiveness in correcting altered antioxidant-dynamics.
The outcome if positive, shouldn't be overly surprising.
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You take a disease rodent model or a toxin-induced rodent model with a compromised immune system, and you introduce an exogenous antioxidant source to determine it's effectiveness in correcting altered antioxidant-dynamics.
The outcome if positive - shouldn't be overly surprising.
PMID: 19789628
PLoS One. 2009 Sep 30;4(9):e7247. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0007247
Hydrogen in Drinking Water Reduces Dopaminergic Neuronal Loss in the 1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine Mouse Model of Parkinson's Disease
It has been shown that molecular hydrogen (H2) acts as a therapeutic antioxidant and suppresses brain injury by buffering the effects of oxidative stress. Chronic oxidative stress causes neurodegenerative diseases such as Parkinson's disease (PD). Here, we show that drinking H2-containing water significantly reduced the loss of dopaminergic neurons in PD model mice using both acute and chronic administration of 1-methyl-4-phenyl-1,2,3,6-tetrahydropyridine (MPTP). The concentration-dependency of H2 showed that H2 as low as 0.08 ppm had almost the same effect as saturated H2 water (1.5 ppm). MPTP-induced accumulation of cellular 8-oxoguanine (8-oxoG), a marker of DNA damage, and 4-hydroxynonenal (4-HNE), a marker of lipid peroxidation were significantly decreased in the nigro-striatal dopaminergic pathway in mice drinking H2-containing water, whereas production of superoxide (O2•−) detected by intravascular injection of dihydroethidium (DHE) was not reduced significantly. Our results indicated that low concentration of H2 in drinking water can reduce oxidative stress in the brain. Thus, drinking H2-containing water may be useful in daily life to prevent or minimize the risk of life style-related oxidative stress and neurodegeneration.
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Now that I've explained why I wasn't at all surprised by the findings, the reason why hydrogen water doesn't interest me whatsoever is due to the fact that if the researchers took any one of the aforementioned studies that I presented - human or rodent - and used a control group [C], a hydrogen-water group [HW], then added an N-acetylcysteine group [NAC].... the results for HW wouldn't even be remotely comparable to NAC. In addition, NAC is available at an extremely affordable price.
Nonetheless.... waste your money if you must.
~
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they referenced the Nature Medicine publication where "inhalation of 2-4% hydrogen gas significantly reduced the cerebral infarct volumes in a rat model of ischemia-reperfusion injury induced by middle cerebral artery occlusion"
NAC would have been a more appropriate agent: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ischemia-reperfusion+injury+infarct+volume+NAC
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I emailed MHF and asked them if the studies on hydrogen were all done by feeding animals diets devoid of antioxidants in the first place. Their response was that they were not aware of any animal studies on hydrogen where that practice was used
The standard rodent chow diet used in studies is devoid of any appreciable antioxidant activity.
Nonetheless, the premise is simple with these type of studies:
You take a disease rodent model or a toxin-induced rodent model with a compromised immune system, and you introduce an exogenous antioxidant source to determine it's effectiveness in correcting altered antioxidant-dynamics.
The outcome if positive, shouldn't be overly surprising.
The chow diet used in these studies was not devoid of antioxidants, which was your first statement and is what I addressed and that is what I emailed MHF on. That is why I asked if you knew of any studies where the diet was devoid of antioxidants....Now you are talking about a toxin/injury-induced rodent model, which is pretty how all studies are done including the ones on NAC, which there is nothing wrong with that. How else are you supposed to see if there is any benefit to something. I would say that it is quite surprising that hydrogen gas could have any positive benefit, helium doesn't, and many other compounds do not. How significant it is, I don't know...but fascinating and potentially useful yes.
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Now that I've explained why I wasn't at all surprised by the findings, the reason why hydrogen water doesn't interest me whatsoever is due to the fact that if the researchers took any one of the aforementioned studies that I presented - human or rodent - and used a control group [C], a hydrogen-water group [HW], then added an N-acetylcysteine group [NAC].... the results for HW wouldn't even be remotely comparable to NAC. In addition, NAC is available at an extremely affordable price.
Nonetheless.... waste your money if you must.
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Maybe NAC is more beneficial, I am not saying that it's not. Just the fact that hydrogen also appears to have promise. But out of curiosity to your statement that hydrogen "wouldn't even be remotely comparable to NAC", I did find a few studies that suggest otherwise.
1)" H2 inhibits TNF-α-induced lectin-like oxidized LDL receptor-1 expression by inhibiting nuclear factor κB activation in endothelial cells" This article showed that H2 was comparable to NAC, even at lower concentrations.
2) "Concomitant inhibition of oxidative stress and angiogenesis by chronic hydrogen-rich saline and N-acetylcysteine treatments improves systemic, splanchnic and hepatic hemodynamics of cirrhotic rats". This article showed that hydrogen was just as effective as and sometimes more effective than NAC at improving (i.e. increasing or decreasing) levels of SOD, catalase, Gpx, CD31, angiopoitien 1, IL-6, IL-1B, TNF-a, TBARS, VEGF, iNOS, NO, and other biomolecules (see figures)
3) "Molecular hydrogen stabilizes atherosclerotic plaque in low-density lipoprotein receptor-knockout mice". This article shows that H2 was as effective as NAC at increasing cell viability.
There may be others...but I did find (and those articles mention it) that NAC is a much more powerful antioxidant that can scavenge things like H2O2, which hydrogen gas cannot do. That is supposedly one of the benefits of hydrogen, is that it is very selective and does not interfere with biologically important ROS, which could explain why hydrogen as been shown in some studies to be more effective than say Vitamin C and E with no toxic effects
a) Long-term treatment of hydrogen-rich saline abates testicular oxidative stress induced by nicotine in mice
b) Effects of vitamin C, vitamin E, and molecular hydrogen on the placental function in trophoblast cells
Also note that NAC may promote oxidative stress. "Supplementation with vitamin C and N-acetyl-cysteine increases oxidative stress in humans after an acute muscle injury induced by eccentric exercise"
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Why?
Significantly more effective supplements are already available.
That may be true, but at least this one seems safe with decent potential. Check out the recent review on hydrogen by Professor Emeritus Garth Nicholson, Noble-Prize Nominee and principle researcher who developed the currently accepted theory of the cell membrane (i.e. Fluid Mosaic Model). "Clinical Effects of Hydrogen Administration: From Animal and Human Diseases to Exercise Medicine" ...
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The chow diet used in these studies was not devoid of antioxidants, which was your first statement and is what I addressed and that is what I emailed MHF on. That is why I asked if you knew of any studies where the diet was devoid of antioxidants
I know exactly what standard rodent chow consists of [see attachment].... and under no circumstance is it considered an antioxidant source in the context of these studies. You do realize the vitamin content is measured via [parts per-million] right?
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note that NAC may promote oxidative stress. "Supplementation with vitamin C and N-acetyl-cysteine increases oxidative stress in humans after an acute muscle injury induced by eccentric exercise"
All antioxidants have pro-oxidant capabilities under the right circumstances. The results in this example are attributed to excessive increased serum Fe3 levels in response to extensive/acute muscle injury.
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That may be true, but at least this one seems safe with decent potential.
In terms of safety & efficacy.... NAC has been used for ages in the clinical setting to detoxify acetaminophen overdose.
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your statement that hydrogen "wouldn't even be remotely comparable to NAC", I did find a few studies that suggest otherwise.
1)" H2 inhibits TNF-α-induced lectin-like oxidized LDL receptor-1 expression by inhibiting nuclear factor κB activation in endothelial cells"
This article showed that H2 was comparable to NAC, even at lower concentrations.
That's merely en vitro data. Let's stick to living systems.
2) "Concomitant inhibition of oxidative stress and angiogenesis by chronic hydrogen-rich saline and N-acetylcysteine treatments improves systemic, splanchnic and hepatic hemodynamics of cirrhotic rats".
This article showed that hydrogen was just as effective as and sometimes more effective than NAC at improving (i.e. increasing or decreasing) levels of SOD, catalase, Gpx, CD31, angiopoitien 1, IL-6, IL-1B, TNF-a, TBARS, VEGF, iNOS, NO, and other biomolecules (see figures)
Really? I didn't realize the study compared the efficacy of the two when administered as standalone treatments.
Post the figures, dosages & administration routes.
3) "Molecular hydrogen stabilizes atherosclerotic plaque in low-density lipoprotein receptor-knockout mice".
This article shows that H2 was as effective as NAC at increasing cell viability.
Post the figures, dosages & administration routes.
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I did find (and those articles mention it) that NAC is a much more powerful antioxidant
Wait.... I thought you said the other "article showed that hydrogen was just as effective as and sometimes more effective than NAC" in terms of it's antioxidant capacity? Which is it?
That is supposedly one of the benefits of hydrogen, is that it is very selective and does not interfere with biologically important ROS
"Hydrogen (H2), a potent free radical scavenger, selectively reduces the hydroxyl radical and peroxynitrate, which is the most cytotoxic of ROS (Ohsawa et al., 2007)."
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The chow diet used in these studies was not devoid of antioxidants, which was your first statement and is what I addressed and that is what I emailed MHF on. That is why I asked if you knew of any studies where the diet was devoid of antioxidants
I know exactly what standard rodent chow consists of [see attachment].... and under no circumstance is it considered an antioxidant source in the context of these studies. You do realize the vitamin content is measured via [parts per-million] right?
Haha Yes. But it is also is not a diet "devoid" of antioxidants. No one said anything about a diet being "considered an antioxidant source". You said they were fed diets "devoid of antioxidants". Plus we typically only need to get sufficient amounts, more is not always better. Maybe I should make the brash statement to you. "You do realize that the content is measured in ppm right" and not % of a DRI, which is why the numbers may look low to you because it doesn't say 100%.
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That may be true, but at least this one seems safe with decent potential.
In terms of safety & efficacy.... NAC has been used for ages in the clinical setting to detoxify acetaminophen overdose.
Yes, not saying that NAC is not safe, or that it is not effective. Just that hydrogen has been shown to be very safe. They have used it since the 1940s, at thousands of times higher concentrations, to prevent decompression sickness in deep sea diving, and that the recent animal and human studies suggest that hydrogen also has potential. But it is no where near studied as much as NAC, and I am not saying that it is. Just that so far the few hundred reports show safety and therapeutic promise. Very simple.
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your statement that hydrogen "wouldn't even be remotely comparable to NAC", I did find a few studies that suggest otherwise.
1)" H2 inhibits TNF-α-induced lectin-like oxidized LDL receptor-1 expression by inhibiting nuclear factor κB activation in endothelial cells"
This article showed that H2 was comparable to NAC, even at lower concentrations.
That's merely en vitro data. Let's stick to living systems.
In vitro data is still very beneficial. But the study also has in vivo data where they used apoE-/- mice and found that the in vivo results were in accordance with the in vitro data.
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I did find (and those articles mention it) that NAC is a much more powerful antioxidant
Wait.... I thought you said the other "article showed that hydrogen was just as effective as and sometimes more effective than NAC" in terms of it's antioxidant capacity? Which is it?
That is supposedly one of the benefits of hydrogen, is that it is very selective and does not interfere with biologically important ROS
"Hydrogen (H2), a potent free radical scavenger, selectively reduces the hydroxyl radical and peroxynitrate, which is the most cytotoxic of ROS (Ohsawa et al., 2007)."
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No not in terms of in vitro antioxidant capacity/ability. That is chemically impossible. The hydrogen molecule is very stable, and can only be broken by very reactive radicals like the hydroxyl radical, and to a lesser extent peroxynitrite, which is what the Ohsawa article states. "H2 selectively reduced the hydroxyl radical, the most cytotoxic of reactive oxygen species (ROS), and effectively protected cells; however, H2 did not react with other ROS, which possess physiological roles." (quoted directly from abstract). The studies I posted were about cell viability, improvements in Gpx, SOD, cytokines, injury, etc.
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Haha Yes. But it is also is not a diet "devoid" of antioxidants. No one said anything about a diet being "considered an antioxidant source". You said they were fed diets "devoid of antioxidants".
Poor choice of wording on my part.
correction: "The animal diets used in these experiments are completely devoid of any appreciable antioxidant activity"
My point was that in contrast to an antioxidant-rich human diet, these are tightly-controlled experiments and standard rodent chow doesn't modify antioxidant status or the researchers would end up with confounded variables.
Maybe I should make the brash statement to you. "You do realize that the content is measured in ppm right" and not % of a DRI, which is why the numbers may look low to you because it doesn't say 100%.
No, the antioxidant content doesn't [look] low.... it is low.... extremely low.
Yes, not saying that NAC is not safe, or that it is not effective. Just that hydrogen has been shown to be very safe.
so far the few hundred reports show safety and therapeutic promise.
And I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying NAC is a better option at a fraction of the cost.
~
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2) "Concomitant inhibition of oxidative stress and angiogenesis by chronic hydrogen-rich saline and N-acetylcysteine treatments improves systemic, splanchnic and hepatic hemodynamics of cirrhotic rats".
This article showed that hydrogen was just as effective as and sometimes more effective than NAC at improving (i.e. increasing or decreasing) levels of SOD, catalase, Gpx, CD31, angiopoitien 1, IL-6, IL-1B, TNF-a, TBARS, VEGF, iNOS, NO, and other biomolecules (see figures)
Really? I didn't realize the study compared the efficacy of the two when administered as standalone treatments.
Post the figures, dosages & administration routes.
So how about some evidence?
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Yes, not saying that NAC is not safe, or that it is not effective. Just that hydrogen has been shown to be very safe. They have used it since the 1940s, at thousands of times higher concentrations, to prevent decompression sickness in deep sea diving, and that the recent animal and human studies suggest that hydrogen also has potential. But it is no where near studied as much as NAC, and I am not saying that it is. Just that so far the few hundred reports show safety and therapeutic promise. Very simple.
Well when they start administering hydrogen water for acetaminophen overdose, COPD, emphasima, pulmonary fibrosis, or contrast-induced kidney damage.... then I'll consider the benefits of hydrogen water. Very simple.
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your statement that hydrogen "wouldn't even be remotely comparable to NAC", I did find a few studies that suggest otherwise.
I don't think so.
So how many of those studies used a C, HW and NAC group?
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That is supposedly one of the benefits of hydrogen, is that it is very selective and does not interfere with biologically important ROS
Neither does NAC.
which could explain why hydrogen as been shown in some studies to be more effective than say Vitamin C and E with no toxic effects
Supplemental vitamin E is garbage, and supplemental vitamin C's efficacy is very much limited in scope.
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Hi Exothermic,
Those are all good questions, and actually I have the same. But it takes me a few hours to review the literature every time I try to answer your questions (I also have my own). This is not my area of expertise. I have researched things enough to see that hydrogen has scientific merit, and therapeutic potential as a medical gas, as opposed to being just another one of those health scams with zero scientific rational/study on anything. It certainly has a long way to go, as the MHF website says 'hydrogen research is still in its infancy and there are only about 500 studies', not thousands like there are with NAC and other things. So no one can claim that it is some miracle cure, but no one can begrudge the scientific data or claim it is all just from low quality journals or something.
Anyways, I would suggest that if you have questions that you either a) write MHF and ask, or b) just search the literature ...I did both. MHF provided helpful information and studies while cautioning me when interpreting the studies, as many are only from animal models, and I found some excellent articles in my search, like the review by Emeritus Professor Garth Nicholson and other high impact factor journal articles. ... great discussing with you, if I run into anything that I think you'll find useful I'll let you know.
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In my quest to guide patients on a path to aging gracefully, I came across the revolutionary bio-benefits of molecular hydrogen. At first, I found studies of molecular hydrogen-infused water in medical journals, detailing its ability to efficiently reduce oxidative stress with potential for the improvement of mitochondrial diseases. <<<<<<SPAM LINK REMOVED>>>>>>
Warning.
This poster has tried to link to a commercial site. Treat any claims for equipment to hydronen infuse water with extreme caution
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Only medical effect is losing money. If you have too much money and it puts you into not healthy state...
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I want to buy a hydrogen generator. Tell me, is such water good for the human body? I read an article here that is very useful. I still doubt the purchase.
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Tell me, is such water good for the human body?
No.
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I have used hydrogen products. I am using a hydrogen water bottle and I feel some benefits of using it. Like I have some relieve fatigue and my blood pressure has come to normal.
I don't know what is people think about it but using it I feel some good changes in my life.
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That's nice, but it's probably the placebo effect.