The Naked Scientists
  • Login
  • Register
  • Podcasts
      • The Naked Scientists
      • eLife
      • Naked Genetics
      • Naked Astronomy
      • In short
      • Naked Neuroscience
      • Ask! The Naked Scientists
      • Question of the Week
      • Archive
      • Video
      • SUBSCRIBE to our Podcasts
  • Articles
      • Science News
      • Features
      • Interviews
      • Answers to Science Questions
  • Get Naked
      • Donate
      • Do an Experiment
      • Science Forum
      • Ask a Question
  • About
      • Meet the team
      • Our Sponsors
      • Site Map
      • Contact us

User menu

  • Login
  • Register
  • Home
  • Help
  • Search
  • Tags
  • Member Map
  • Recent Topics
  • Login
  • Register
  1. Naked Science Forum
  2. Non Life Sciences
  3. Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology
  4. Has there always been a constant number of photons?
« previous next »
  • Print
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Has there always been a constant number of photons?

  • 31 Replies
  • 5977 Views
  • 0 Tags

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 53448
  • Activity:
    100%
  • Thanked: 171 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Re: Has there always been a constant number of photons?
« Reply #20 on: 29/12/2018 10:57:43 »
No, but it's good fun rereading it, lightarrow is another guy I enjoyed. Damn Bill but we're getting old here, eight years of discussing one topic, physics,, and nowhere closer to the goal
Logged
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."
 



Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 16374
  • Activity:
    97.5%
  • Thanked: 1318 times
  • life is too short to drink instant coffee
    • View Profile
Re: Has there always been a constant number of photons?
« Reply #21 on: 29/12/2018 17:57:08 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 28/12/2018 16:50:53
Does the circumference of a circle with infinite radius equal a straight line?
No. See Cantor on multiple infinities.
Logged
helping to stem the tide of ignorance
 
The following users thanked this post: jeffreyH

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 16374
  • Activity:
    97.5%
  • Thanked: 1318 times
  • life is too short to drink instant coffee
    • View Profile
Re: Has there always been a constant number of photons?
« Reply #22 on: 29/12/2018 18:10:15 »
Quote from: Bill S on 28/12/2018 17:10:01
Quote from: Alan
Depends on the nature of the interaction. At low photon energies the photon generally disappears into heat, a chemical change, or the movement of charge in an electrical circuit, but at energies above the visible spectrum you can get all sorts of secondary emission including photonuclear reactions.

What is the likelihood that emissions arising from these interactions would influence the original beam?
Would there be any effect other than "attenuated intensity"?


I'm dealing with just such a case right now: the phenomenon of "buildup" as a photon beam passes through a concrete barrier.  Multiple interactions within the barrier means that you can end up with more photons coming out than went in, but at a lower mean energy per photon.

This is a useful phenomenon in industrial radiography where we use a thin sheet of tin or lead o "intensify" the image - more, lower energy, photons are captured by the x-ray film than if you just use the raw 300 kV x-ray beam. It's a pain when designing radiotherapy bunkers because you need to use an iterative process to determine the required thickness of concrete - more doesn't always mean less! And it caused great hilarity when a pompous and ignorant Health and Safety Inspector (he always spoke in Capital Letters) insisted that staff handling high-energy gamma sources should wear lead aprons, which not only slowed them down, but actually increased their instantaneous skin dose.


Quote
We use all kinds of filters to remove photons of specific energies from a beam to produce a more monoenergetic  (monochromatic) beam of lower intensity.

In these cases; would a filter equate to a “target”, in the original quote?

[/quote] Indeed. At the low energy end of the business, we use aluminum filters to remove the part of the x-ray spectrum that would cause skin burns without producing an image. Other folk use filters to remove high energy bits from the visible spectrum so that your room lights don't interfere with your TV remote control.
Logged
helping to stem the tide of ignorance
 
The following users thanked this post: Bill S

Offline Bored chemist

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 29183
  • Activity:
    86%
  • Thanked: 1070 times
    • View Profile
Re: Has there always been a constant number of photons?
« Reply #23 on: 30/12/2018 13:39:11 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 29/12/2018 18:10:15
I'm dealing with just such a case right now: the phenomenon of "buildup" as a photon beam passes through a concrete barrier.  Multiple interactions within the barrier means that you can end up with more photons coming out than went in, but at a lower mean energy per photon.

A more commonplace example is where the Sun shines on a rock + warms it up.
Logged
Please disregard all previous signatures.
 

Offline Bill S

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 3633
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 114 times
    • View Profile
Re: Has there always been a constant number of photons?
« Reply #24 on: 31/12/2018 11:20:41 »
Could be, I’m getting there. I’ll try re-wording my interpretation of:

Quote
As consequence of such kind of interactions a photon that interacts with the target is completely removed from the incident beam, in other words a beam of photons that cross a medium is not degraded in energy but only attenuated in intensity.

A beam of photons is travelling through (e.g.) a vacuum.  It hits a transparent/translucent target.  Any photon that interacts with the target is removed from the beam.  If this interaction is such that it does not result in the production of further photons, the continuing beam is not influenced by any energy exchange involving these removed photons, and continues, as before, but with fewer photons, of which the energy is unchanged.  However, if the interactions result in the emission of new photons (possibly more photons, with lower energy), the influence on the emerging beam will not be restricted to attenuation.
Logged
There never was nothing.
 



Offline Bill S

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 3633
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 114 times
    • View Profile
Re: Has there always been a constant number of photons?
« Reply #25 on: 31/12/2018 11:29:15 »
Quote from: BC
A more commonplace example is where the Sun shines on a rock + warms it up.

If this is an outcrop of rock which is warmed through, what is detected on the far side?  Obviously, this would not be visible light, unless the rock became ridiculously hot, but presumably there would be photons of some wavelength.
Logged
There never was nothing.
 

Offline jeffreyH (OP)

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 7002
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 192 times
  • The graviton sucks
    • View Profile
Re: Has there always been a constant number of photons?
« Reply #26 on: 31/12/2018 12:20:36 »
OK I'm going to pose a subsequent question. How does the wavelength of a photon affect its ability to penetrate a material?
Logged
Even the most obstinately ignorant cannot avoid learning when in an environment that educates.
 

Offline Bill S

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 3633
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 114 times
    • View Profile
Re: Has there always been a constant number of photons?
« Reply #27 on: 31/12/2018 17:07:30 »
Just a guess, but I would think that the shorter the wavelength, the greater the penetrating power.
Logged
There never was nothing.
 

Online yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 53448
  • Activity:
    100%
  • Thanked: 171 times
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Re: Has there always been a constant number of photons?
« Reply #28 on: 31/12/2018 17:14:11 »
Isn't it more a question of what is 'compatible' when it comes to the absorption of a photon?
Logged
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."
 



Offline evan_au

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 10761
  • Activity:
    20%
  • Thanked: 1386 times
    • View Profile
Re: Has there always been a constant number of photons?
« Reply #29 on: 31/12/2018 19:22:41 »
Quote from: BillS
I would think that the shorter the wavelength, the greater the penetrating power.
There is another mechanism at work for wavelengths that are much longer than the object size.

If the wavelength of the radiation is much more than twice the size of the object, the radiation tends to go through and/or around the object as if it wasn't there. This is the ultimate penetrating power!
Logged
 

Offline PmbPhy

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 3903
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 126 times
    • View Profile
Re: Has there always been a constant number of photons?
« Reply #30 on: 31/12/2018 20:05:35 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 26/12/2018 19:11:24
Since the big bang has the number of photons remained constant? If not then what kind of interactions changes this number?
A simple example is when an electron annihilates a positron producing two photons. My TV produces photons while its on.
Logged
 

Offline jeffreyH (OP)

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 7002
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 192 times
  • The graviton sucks
    • View Profile
Re: Has there always been a constant number of photons?
« Reply #31 on: 31/12/2018 20:51:49 »
Quote from: evan_au on 31/12/2018 19:22:41
Quote from: BillS
I would think that the shorter the wavelength, the greater the penetrating power.
There is another mechanism at work for wavelengths that are much longer than the object size.

If the wavelength of the radiation is much more than twice the size of the object, the radiation tends to go through and/or around the object as if it wasn't there. This is the ultimate penetrating power!

This is something Leonard Susskind discusses in relation to black holes. If the photon wavelength is twice the diameter of the event horizon then the black hole won't capture it.
Logged
Even the most obstinately ignorant cannot avoid learning when in an environment that educates.
 



  • Print
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
« previous next »
Tags:
 

Similar topics (5)

Are Photons "pushed" or "pulled ?

Started by RE.CraigBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 19
Views: 9239
Last post 27/02/2013 10:29:27
by yor_on
Two low energy photons for one high energy photon in fluorescence possible?

Started by McKayBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 6
Views: 4842
Last post 19/05/2019 13:05:28
by alancalverd
Does a live human body and a dead human body have the same number of particles?

Started by Pseudoscience-is-malarkeyBoard General Science

Replies: 2
Views: 2555
Last post 20/03/2021 20:30:11
by Zer0
Could the missing 6 dimensions be atoms, protons, neutrons, neutrinos, photons and consciousness?

Started by thedocBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 3
Views: 4643
Last post 06/08/2016 23:36:07
by evan_au
Do photons absorb energy when entering strong gravitational field differentials

Started by jerrygg38Board General Science

Replies: 3
Views: 3967
Last post 10/09/2016 14:11:02
by jerrygg38
There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
  • SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
    Privacy Policy
    SMFAds for Free Forums
  • Naked Science Forum ©

Page created in 0.206 seconds with 64 queries.

  • Podcasts
  • Articles
  • Get Naked
  • About
  • Contact us
  • Advertise
  • Privacy Policy
  • Subscribe to newsletter
  • We love feedback

Follow us

cambridge_logo_footer.png

©The Naked Scientists® 2000–2017 | The Naked Scientists® and Naked Science® are registered trademarks created by Dr Chris Smith. Information presented on this website is the opinion of the individual contributors and does not reflect the general views of the administrators, editors, moderators, sponsors, Cambridge University or the public at large.