Naked Science Forum
General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: DoctorBeaver on 05/11/2008 21:10:42
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Hamilton is being hailed as the first black F1 champion, Obama as the first black US president. But hang on - in both cases their mother is white. That makes them only half black. Why, then, are they classed as black not white? After all they're 50/50.
I've seen white guys with tans who are darker-skinned than Hamilton. Mick Jaggers lips are just as big. So what is it?
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The official terminology is mixed heritage. Both Barry and Lewis should be asked what they see themselves as before labels are applied. There is a new film openning soon called Skin (I think.) It is about a black girl who has two white parents. They are living in South Africa during appartied. The white parents obviously see her as white but the Africa government see her as black. She has to go to a government office where they do tests on her such as, seeing if a pencil will stay in her curly hair, to see if she is black or white. I think it will show just how stupid labelling people is in the first place.
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The official terminology is mixed heritage. Both Barry and Lewis should be asked what they see themselves as before labels are applied. There is a new film openning soon called Skin (I think.) It is about a black girl who has two white parents. They are living in South Africa during appartied. The white parents obviously see her as white but the Africa government see her as black. She has to go to a government office where they do tests on her such as, seeing if a pencil will stay in her curly hair, to see if she is black or white. I think it will show just how stupid labelling people is in the first place.
I'm sure I've read the book
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Q. What colour are Lewis Hamilton & Barak Obama?
A. Somewhere between "Cinnamon" and "Copper teak" on the Dulux colour chart.
http://greatpaintingtips.com/ici-colour-card-2007-available-online/2007/03/30/
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Q. What colour are Lewis Hamilton & Barak Obama?
A. Somewhere between "Cinnamon" and "Copper teak" on the Dulux colour chart.
http://greatpaintingtips.com/ici-colour-card-2007-available-online/2007/03/30/
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbestsmileys.com%2Fdoh%2F2.gif&hash=fef6931e562a6dc5fd0fd29a97202c70)
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Quite right, neither Hamilton nor Obama are black or white. But I can go with the cinnamon description. I’m rather partial to cinnamon. I do like a nice Hot Cross Bun with loads of real butter. Unhealthy? Who cares?
Headline......
Obama, first cinnamon US President.
But why must the media continue to point out their skin colour? They have told us (not that 99.9% of us needed to be told, since we can see for ourselves), there is no need to keep on about it.
On a BBC Radio 4 programme a few days ago, the matter of ‘mention of race’ was discussed. A British psychologist with an English sounding name on his way from London to a meeting had his secretary give a description of him to the man who would be picking him up from the airport arrival lobby. They missed each other. The secretary had not pointed out that her boss was Asian, because she did not think it relevant. Under such circumstances, as the psychologist pointed out, it is!
There is nothing wrong with saying ‘black is black and white is white’. There is nothing racist about it. But once the fact has been established, there is no need for constant repetition. Or if it is patently obvious, why mention it at all.
I think this is all down to the racial PC brigade and their ‘positive discrimination’. While I admit that in some circumstances it may be preferable, on the whole I do not like it. I think it hands ammunition to the racist bigots.
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Don - I quite agree. When I was lecturing I was once berated when talking to a colleague about 1 of the students in my class. So that he knew who in particular I was referring to, I said "The lesbian with red hair". Apparently that is discriminatory.
How can it be? She is a lesbian and, at the time, had red hair.
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I'm somewhat surprised that no-one has called me racist yet for this thread. Maybe the idiots are hibernating.
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Seems reasonable to me Doc. This programme discussed the reluctance of people to mention colour for fear of being branded racist.
Worth listening to on the BBC iplayer.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00f75dg/All_in_the_Mind_04112008/ (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00f75dg/All_in_the_Mind_04112008/)
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It's all down to some people wanting to impress others with how PC they are. "I'm more righteous that you so ner"
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That's right, call a spade a spade - although they prefer to be called negroes.
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The last statement was the only racist thing on this thread. I assume it was in jest, like the Spanyards blacking up at their Grand Prix!!!!!!!!!
People don't mention colour or race because they are afraid of making a mistake and either insulting someone or seeming ignorant. Being politically correct is OK as long as people are educated to use it properly. Ignorance is the enemy in all this. Not talking about or learning about race and colour and what people are comfortable and uncomfortable about reinforces ignorance. Beaver this thread is very relevant. You should never be afraid to ask or you will stay ignorant forever.
I employ a diversity lecturer who is mixed heritage African/British. A teacher asked him "Why is Nigger so offensive to black people?"
The lecturer replied "Because it usually comes with the word Die or kill the f****** in front of it."
The history of this language is what makes it politically incorrect.
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But black people, especially the young, call each other nigger. Just listen to rap songs.
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They are trying to reclaim the word but it isn't working because only best black friends can use it with each other. You try going up to a young black man and try calling him nigger. I think you will find that hospital food has improved under a labour government!
Again it is finding out what people are comfortable with. For young black men, using nigger with each other is the usual teenage rebellion against their parents values. It is like my boys calling everything slightly rubbish, gay.
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But that illustrates my point about PC. How can it be OK for person A to use a particular word but not person B? That is saying that the word itself is not inherently offensive, but that it can be offensive or not depending on who uses it. Isn't that showing up the very differences that PC is supposed to play down?
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As I said before it is all about dialogue and finding out what people are comfortable with. If you don't have the conversation you will be hedging around the topic all the time. To begin with using the PC rules is just being polite. It gives you the basic rules. When I lived in Japan all foreigners were taught ultra polite English because then you would not make mistakes and offend people. Japanese is a very honorific language and can be a nightmare. Once you understand the honorifics then you can explore the language more.
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Well I think it's a load of bollox
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Very mature response. I know what JimBob means now!
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I came to that conclusion after much considered thought.
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If you go back far enough it appears that we are all "of African decent"...
According to the Out of Africa Model, developed by Chris Stringer and Peter Andrews, modern H. sapiens evolved in Africa 200,000 years ago. Homo sapiens began migrating from Africa between 70,000 – 50,000 years ago and would eventually replace existing hominid species in Europe and Asia. The Out of Africa Model has gained support by recent research using mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA). After analysing genealogy trees constructed using 133 types of mtDNA, they concluded that all were descended from a woman from Africa, dubbed Mitochondrial Eve.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_man#Out_of_Africa_model
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The last statement was the only racist thing on this thread. I assume it was in jest,
Yes, the spade reference was made in jest (frankly, I'm amazed that anybody could remember it as it's quite outmoded) - it was intended more as a reference to an older usage within the context of the thread.
I wouldn't have thought any thinking person would regard a pun like that as racist, especially within the context of a humorous thread such as this one - this is usually the default setting of the hastily reactive.
Cross-cultural jokes are acceptable to the extent that my financial adviser, who is Jewish, often finishes our telephone conversations by him telling me a Jewish joke - in the same way that Lionel Blue used to tell one on the Today programme.
True racism is that which is expressed through actions rather than words; for instance, it would be offensive racism to get up and move to another seat on a bus if a black person sat next to you - but not a word would have been spoken.
Where racism really falls on its face is because it criticises/vilifies someone for something they can do nothing about - their facticity.
There is no freedom greater than that which allows us to criticise and/or satirise any belief or activity that is the result of choice - that of course includes religion, dress sense etc, but excludes colour, ethnic origin and disabilities.
PC is much valued by those unable to think for themselves, those practitioners who, in the proper order of things, should be out there digging ditches and coppicing smallwood. They are all mangers now, often in minor government departments, free to dispense their battiness to the rest of us - a pox upon them all.
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Well said, sir.
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So would you count monkey chanting at football matches and blacking up for Lewis Hamilton racist or not?
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Of course I would as it's degrading and insulting. But that is a totally different thing to calling someone a nigger. Black people use that word among themselves but I don't recall ever a black man monkey chanting at another black man
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So you would call a black man a nigger then?
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So you would call a black man a nigger then?
That's not what I said, is it. I was querying why it depends on the colour of a person's skin whether the word can be used or not. That in itself is racist and makes the whole PC issue a nonsense.
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And all I'm saying is that people do worry about being PC because they haven't been allowed to explore what it is and what is acceptable. This is especially the case in rural areas. Ignorance and stereotyping in the media don't help. I read an article recently about a black farmer in Lincolnshire who kept getting the police calling on him when he went out to pick his maize. The ignorant people around him didn't see a black farmer. They saw a black thief steeling maize. The guy was surprisingly tolerant of the situation. If I were him I would be fuming!
I have also been on the other end of racism when I lived in Japan. After a year the pointing and the cries of "gaijin" really gets you down. Name calling is very wearing when it is constant.
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I've been on the receiving end too in Africa because I had a black girlfriend. It was her who got the abuse for being with a "mzungu".
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When I was training to be an Appropriate Adult (in the criminal justice system) there was a young black man from another town in the same group.
He said that when he first went out as an Appropriate Adult to help some one in custody who was deemed vulnerable the police automatically assumed it was him they had to interview - he was very good natured about it and said that he'd half thought to let it run to see how it would develop.
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I would guess they are both different colours depending on your own outlook, but then again i think Obama tried to be all things to all people.
As strange as it may seem, i am often asked if i am "half-cast"! But this tends to be in area's where there is little ethnic diversity or where the people are just racist. The fact that i have a good, year round tan, never occurs to them. Similary my daughter is mistaken for someone of medeteranian origin, i have no idea why this is because both her mother and i are white!
As for the 'N' word, yes this is used by blacks to other blacks and it can be used as an insult or a welcoming greeting.
As for race in America, i think nobody knows how to address people. You will often see the same interviewer refer to the interviewee as black and african american in the same interview, but i do put most of the "blame" on the black population. In their strive to be different, they want to be classed as african americans when they (the majority) are quite cleerly americans. why can we all not just be american, british or french...sorry, i dont think anyone would WANT to be french.
I leave you with this picture, what do you honestly think the missing letter is? This is wheel of fortune and the clue is "people who annoy you"
[ Invalid Attachment ]
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What are noggers?
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It's probably 'NAGGERS' - if the little figure of a woman is significant.
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But that illustrates my point about PC. How can it be OK for person A to use a particular word but not person B? That is saying that the word itself is not inherently offensive, but that it can be offensive or not depending on who uses it. Isn't that showing up the very differences that PC is supposed to play down?
It isn't so much who uses the word, as the context in which it is used. When black people use it among themselves, they are not likely to be being offensive.
My objection to the politically correct dialogue, management speak and similar contrivances, is that they are modish or inflated diction.And, according to the Oxford guide to English usage, only a bad writer uses modish or inflated diction.
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What are noggers?
Same as 'nuggers' but with an 'o', not the same as neggers though.
What a load of hurrr(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freesmileys.org%2Fsmileys%2Ftoilet11.gif&hash=fac6e06b22674725f2fc542a42b192bc) (http://www.freesmileys.org)
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sorry, i dont think anyone would WANT to be french.
I think this is the only racist, or at least, nationalist, comment in this discussion.
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sorry, i dont think anyone would WANT to be french.
I think this is the only racist, or at least, nationalist, comment in this discussion.
How is that? I would not want to be French because of their horrendous beaurocracy - I've had experience of being at the wrong end it - that is devised by the French for the French. Does that make me racist or 'nationalist' whatever that is?
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You suggested that no one wants to be French when what you meant was that you don't. Personally, I'm happy being British because that is what I am used to. Other people would not wish to be British. You do need to qualify bald statements otherwise you do sound racist. This is where political correctness comes in handy!!!!
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Blake - I don't want to be an onion-string-wearing, cycle-riding, stripey-T-shirted, frog eater either! [:D]
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You forgot the garlic-chewing. [;D]
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rhade, I tried, but these uncouth bunch just don't know how to behave.
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I would not want to be French because of their horrendous beaurocracy ...
Does that make me racist or 'nationalist' whatever that is?
I'm glad you didn't say chauvinist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Chauvin), that would have ranked alongside Dubya's "The French have no word for entrepreneur".
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Thanks Rd that really made me chuckle.
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The French are very xenophobic. They fear the British, the Germans, The Spanish, The Monaconians (or whatever they're called) & the Andorrans.
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rhade, why do you think what i wrote was racist? I find it strange that you thought that was racist, but have no problem with the image i posted. Both were (intended) to be humerous, afterall, isn't "knocking" the french a british passtime?
Would it not have been better to ask me if i intended it to sound racist or for clarification on what i wrote? Now, if this was being discussed with a frenchman and he thought i was being racist, we would possibly be sat around a large table drinking wine, our voices would be ever so slightly raised and we would begin eating some cheese. The passionate frenchman would by now be throwing his hands up in the air. No not in a gesture to his frustration, but the typical action of a cheese eating, surrender monkey!
Mil
I hope the above is politically correct and nonracist sounding? Also, did you mean "other people MAY not wish to be British"?
Blakestyger
in the world we live in anything can be turned and manipulated.
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This is one of the most depressing threads I have seen in a long time - we are all just human beings and this should be all that we see in each other.
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This is one of the most depressing threads I have seen in a long time - we are all just human beings and this should be all that we see in each other.
I agree. I was just wondering why Obama & Hamilton see themselves as black as when they are as white as they are black.
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Because they have been racially abused. People who see themselves as a minority group refer to themselves as black or gay!
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Paul if you would like some more French bashing info ....most French people admit to eating whilst on the toilet!!!!!! YUK!
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Paul if you would like some more French bashing info ....most French people admit to eating whilst on the toilet!!!!!! YUK!
Thanks, sharon, I will add that to the list. Did you know that the french have taken their own precautions against al-Qa'ida. To prepare for? an attack, each Frenchman is urged to keep duct tape, a white flag, and ?a three-day supply of mistresses in the house."
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They should just wave an orange suit at them. That usually does the trick.
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This is one of the most depressing threads I have seen in a long time - we are all just human beings and this should be all that we see in each other.
I agree. I was just wondering why Obama & Hamilton see themselves as black as when they are as white as they are black.
I do know why for Obama - in the US any person with half or more (warning P.C. Ahead) African Heritage may be considered black by the Census Bureau but they cannot be considered white.
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What about albino Africans?
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Good point!
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What about albino Africans?
What about albino Africans?
Albino Africans are treated the same way as albino beavers - as outcasts.
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What about albino Africans?
What about albino Africans?
Albino Africans are treated the same way as albino beavers - as outcasts.
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbestsmileys.com%2Fhitting%2F12.gif&hash=700b1e8e335f969537d209e0917186cb)
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What?? [:0] - this is the truth! Albinos Americans of African descent are treated as outcasts. It is fact! At least here in the US. My best friend - who happens to be black - told me this when I asked him just now.
Lord, man, get a life rather than going around bashing people with hammers. Surely you can come up with something better.... on second thought, considering the source, this IS the best you can do, isn't it.
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This is one of the most depressing threads I have seen in a long time - we are all just human beings and this should be all that we see in each other.
I agree. I was just wondering why Obama & Hamilton see themselves as black as when they are as white as they are black.
I do know why for Obama - in the US any person with half or more (warning P.C. Ahead) African Heritage may be considered black by the Census Bureau but they cannot be considered white.
It weird Jim as my Dad is Black Afro caribbean and my Mum is white from England . However skin wise i am White in appearance.
My black friends however see me as black and would have no problem if i were to use the N word. Whilst my white friends see me as white and many would consider it wrong for me to use the N word . Me personally, i don't care about colour and just see people and believe they should remove all mention of colour from application forms etc .
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We are in agreement, Michael, people are people - period!
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Agreed, ukmicky. Forms which ask for 'ethnicity' should be banned, unless it is a crucial factor.
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This is one of the most depressing threads I have seen in a long time - we are all just human beings and this should be all that we see in each other.
I agree. I was just wondering why Obama & Hamilton see themselves as black as when they are as white as they are black.
I do know why for Obama - in the US any person with half or more (warning P.C. Ahead) African Heritage may be considered black by the Census Bureau but they cannot be considered white.
It weird Jim as my Dad is Black Afro caribbean and my Mum is white from England . However skin wise i am White in appearance.
My black friends however see me as black and would have no problem if i were to use the N word. Whilst my white friends see me as white and many would consider it wrong for me to use the N word . Me personally, i don't care about colour and just see people and believe they should remove all mention of colour from application forms etc .
At last someone speaking from experience. Could you tell this lot why both Obama and Hamilton like to be refered to as black.
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Okay, people...
1-The French are mostly white, the same racial group as the majority in Britain, but they are a different nation. Therefore, prejudice against them is nationalism, not racialism.
2-I saw the cartoon as funny. In poor taste, but funny. The comment on the French sounded suspiciously like euro-sceptic reactionaryism.
3-I'm not a fan of political correctness. I think the Americans brought in in 'cause they don't have the European liberal tradition. We are the Europeans, therefore don't need it- yet get it imposed on us.
4-I think I worked out the answer to the actual question. Human hair is mostly white, but has little bits of colour pigmentation, which because of the hairs thickness, gives it colour, so we refer to it as red, or whatever. Obama and Hamilton get referred to as black for the same reason. They may be somewhat white, but the preponderance of pigmentation they have makes them appear black.
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Just wanted to chime in on this topic, the answer is both Obama and Hamilton are black. I see some post going into the technically side of it but the bottom line is the world does not work that way.
If you knew nothing about either of those men, what race would you say they were? If they were both completely unknown and all you had were their pictures and asked a hundred people to guess their race what would most say? It would almost assuradly come back as they were black.
So does that make them black? Well... yes. Race means almost nothing in the grand scheme of things but the main issue is it can dictate the opportunities you get and how people will treat you. I am half black myself and definitely look "less" black than Obama, but I have been walking down the street and been called the N word by complete strangers... did they stop and say "Are you mixed?". No, because it's all about perception.
While it would be nice if we lived in a world were people treated everyone equally, we don't and I am sure both Lewis and Barack have had incidents where they were treated differently solely based on the color of their skin so that's what it boils down to. It is something that may be hard to understand unless you "look" and by de facto are black, but if you look black and get treated as a black person then that's what you are in this world regardless of your genetics, so while you may be part something else there is no need to try to nit pick and say "Hey I'm White too!" because it doesn't change anything or really matter in our day to day life, and any self respecting mixed person that looks black will most likely understand that and call them self black as well and be done with it. And until this world becomes truly color blind that is the way it is and will continue to be.
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I also want to say something on another point that people who aren't black find it hard to wrap their mind around. Why black people don't have a problem using the N word but are bother when others races do.
If a man says "All men are damned ignorant fools and whore mongers". The truth is as a man it is hard to believe that he truly in his heart believes he himself is a ignorant fool and whore monger and by extension he can't truly mean that about all men.
Now if a man says "All women are damned dumb bimbos and whores" well now it's hard to know if that vile train of thought is a true absolute belief or just spewed nonsense, and there in lies the issue.
When the N word is said by a black person it is hard to fathom that the really have vile hate and contempt fot the black race as again by extension it would mean the same about themselves as well, and the truth is most of the time it isn't said in such a way that represents that belief.
When someone of another race says it, there is no way to know if they truly have hate for the black race, if they think that black people are inferior or look down to black people in ANY way, as that is what the word represent.
The bottom line is they may not feel as I sated above, they may just be saying it because to them it is not that big of a deal, but there is no way for anyone to truly know what is in someone else's head. So to MANY black people those questions are what runs through their heads, which will generally NEVER goes through their mind when a black person says the N word. Not being able to ever really know leads to anger when someone of another race uses the word because, as I said in my other post some "white" people as well as other races do treat black people different (and by different that does mean worse) for what ever reason, so anyone can truly harbor those feelings, the only ones we can safely exclude are people who are black.
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Shouldn't we be talking about the talents of these 2 men and anyone else rather than the colour of their skin, which for me does not
matter one jot.
BTW It never has but then I do live in a London, a mixture of the
whole world's different cultures GREAT
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Rosalind, people never talk about topics like this and are therefore often ignorant of what speed 145 has just expressed. It needs to be spoken about as it helps people from rural mainly white communities cope when they go into the big wide world.
The last thing we want is to have a Secretary trying to describe here Asian boss to a client without saying he is Asian because she is afraid of seeming racist. In this case the client was trying to meet up with the boss in a hotel but never found the boss because of the secretaries insecurities.
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To continue the theme of the last few posts, I feel inclined to add the following.
I grew up in Cumbria, where I hardly ever saw anyone none white. I would say most people there had racialist attitudes, rather unreasonably, as it was judging people they never had much contact with. When I moved down here to Huntingdon, I was, at least at first, very conscious of the number of people of different racial groups. I don't believe I ever saw it as a problem, I just wasn't used to seeing it. By now I just don't think about it (except when posting on a thread like this, obviously). I think I treat all people well, regardless of who they are, not necessarily because of any belief in equality, but just because that's the way I am. I'm just not the let's be hostile and cop an attitude type. I don't see the same level of prejudice here I saw in Cumbria, in fact, I seldom see any.
What other people think of me, I leave entirely up to them to decide.
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I've been on the receiving end too in Africa because I had a black girlfriend. It was her who got the abuse for being with a "mzungu".
whats a "mzungu"???
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Mzungu is a KiSwahili word used for white people.
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Is it a polite term? The Japanese call all foreigners "Gaijin" which translated means outsider people. It is not a very pleasent word but I prefer it to Alien, which the Japanese government use when a foreigner registers in Japan. I took along my dealy boppers so I looked like a real Alien. They weren't impressed.
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Mzungu actually means something like "great man". As the early whites were perceived as great men, this is the word that was used and it has stuck. It's not used in a pejorative manner.
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You are a great Beaver, not a great man. Couldn't they tell the difference?
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I was travelling incognito
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I was travelling incognito
In a Fur Coat - In Africa - In Summer ???
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Perhaps this is the time/place to ask - why do (white, in the UK) youths from certain social strata/economic groups sound as though they are speaking with a Jamaican accent?
Does it demonstrate a wish for some sort of affinity aspects of black culture, and if it does, why?
I don't understand it.
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I think it is a music/gang culture thing!
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I think people often just pick up what they here around them. What are "dealy boppers?"
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Is it a polite term? The Japanese call all foreigners "Gaijin" which translated means outsider people. It is not a very pleasent word but I prefer it to Alien, which the Japanese government use when a foreigner registers in Japan. I took along my dealy boppers so I looked like a real Alien. They weren't impressed.
In Thailand, white people are called 'Farang' (sometimes Falang). It becomes very obvious when you hear the word over and over again while you're walking around.
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Rhade - these are:-
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F9%2F95%2FDeely_Bobbers.JPG%2F180px-Deely_Bobbers.JPG&hash=7931105c352d64398ed2779bb623f1b4)
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Right! I think the technical description is "unconventional items of headwear, the wearing of which is usually associated with excessive alcoholic consumption."
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They are also worn to represent antenna. Lots of people think that aliens have antenna hence my wearing them to register as an alien.
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Cool! I've never made it with an alien!
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Made what exactly?
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Nothin' printable in a family newspaper... Sorry, I was exhibiting stereotypical male behaviour... That happens, sometimes.