Naked Science Forum
General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: Andy28 on 25/09/2006 20:33:18
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Yes or no? Simple as that.
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For some people it's not a black or white question/situation
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Flying Monkey Slayer AKA The Big Cheese says:
My famous last words will be
"I dunno, press the button and find out."
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I think for or against would be clearer. Definitely AGAINST!!!
Gaia xxx
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Against!
"Lo" Loretta
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Against!!
Karen
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In general, against. I do not think it serves any judicial purpose.
I think the more complex issue is where someone serving a life sentence actually asks to be allowed to die (such as Ian Brady did, and such an Ian Huntly and Harold Shipman did by their actions if not by their request).
But then, this side issue may itself imping upon the wider debate about euthanasia.
George
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Against.
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Theres lots of kind hearted people on this forum, lol. I've never seen so many people at peace with the world. I suppose i get annoyed because where i live you can murder someone and make parole in as little as 12 years. How is that paying your debt?
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Too bad peace with the world does not mean world peace...we are still a minority!
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
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I wish I could give a straight forward answer, but I'm still kind of straddling the fence on this one.
Carolyn
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I was once given a wedgie on a gate, that wasn't very nice, they ripped my trousers [:(!][V]
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Flying Monkey Slayer AKA The Big Cheese says:
My famous last words will be
"I dunno, press the button and find out."
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
Theres lots of kind hearted people on this forum, lol. I've never seen so many people at peace with the world. I suppose i get annoyed because where i live you can murder someone and make parole in as little as 12 years. How is that paying your debt?
What debt - you cannot repay a debt with an eye for an eye.
As far as I am concerned, the guy may as well come out as soon as people can be reasonably sure he wont do it again (in some cases, the guy would never do it again anyway - after all, if a wife happens to lose it against a habitually abusive husband, does she really even deserve 12 years inside?).
There are other people who will be spending the rest of their lives in jail (in the case of Ian Huntly, it was a fairly short rest of his life) - but then, even that often seems more like a political gesture than a carefully judged assessment of public risk.
I see absolutely no value of vengeance for the sake of vengeance. I do not see that as being kind, just pragmatic.
George
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quote:
Originally posted by another_someone
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Originally posted by Andy28
Theres lots of kind hearted people on this forum, lol. I've never seen so many people at peace with the world. I suppose i get annoyed because where i live you can murder someone and make parole in as little as 12 years. How is that paying your debt?
What debt - you cannot repay a debt with an eye for an eye.
As far as I am concerned, the guy may as well come out as soon as people can be reasonably sure he wont do it again (in some cases, the guy would never do it again anyway - after all, if a wife happens to lose it against a habitually abusive husband, does she really even deserve 12 years inside?).
There are other people who will be spending the rest of their lives in jail (in the case of Ian Huntly, it was a fairly short rest of his life) - but then, even that often seems more like a political gesture than a carefully judged assessment of public risk.
I see absolutely no value of vengeance for the sake of vengeance. I do not see that as being kind, just pragmatic.
I just don't know how to respond. I just cannot believe that you guys see murderers as people who deserve compassion and a second chance. We are on different planets.
George
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I just don't know how to respond. I just cannot believe that you guys see murderers as people who deserve compassion and a second chance. We are on different planets.
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
I just don't know how to respond. I just cannot believe that you guys see murderers as people who deserve compassion and a second chance. We are on different planets.
As I said, to me it is not a matter of compasion for the individual, it is about trying to build the society I would like to live in.
Oh, yes, I do have compassion for those who have been wrongly convicted (and no-matter what your belief in DNA analysis, we still get plenty of false convictions); and I also have compassion for the family of the person convicted of murder (they too are just as much victims as the person who has been killed). More than that, I want to see more positive steps broghte about to reduce violence in society, and matching violence with violence does not to my mind serve that end.
George
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I understand what you are saying. I think that brings this debate to a close unless a different member decides to contribute.
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I agree with George, and I didn't realize this was a debate , but merely a question being answered honestly!! I do note that you wanted yes or no... but a question can be answered that way but indeed at times it is neccessary to allow further dialog to occur with answer!
Karen
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Excellent Karen! I can concur with your statement given. What does it solve if we kill a person? What satisfaction does it give to the victum or victum's families? Does it really repay for what was taken? There should be other alternatives given...if the person is locked up for life...and supposed rehabilitation is given(not usually)then the person should work and pay compensation to that family while they are alive under supervision since we are paying for them being locked up the money they would normally earn on the outside should be sent to the family in a fund for them to decide what to do with it. For those on shorter term sentences, they should be monitored more closely by parole and not have freedoms like they have now, but placed in classes for rehabilitation for life. Okay, not all the solutions but some short term ones I am thinking of as there is no value on life, but they should have to pay other than receiving an education in jail and no real rehabilitation for their behaviour...etc...
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
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Andy, It really bothers me that You say Yes or No, its that simple! It is not simple .. the fact is it is one of the hardest questions I have ever faced in my life! Fact I am 46 years old It took me over half of my life to have the life experience that I have had dealing with specific topic subject for me to finally be able to say "Against!" and stand confident that it is really the best thing for me. I find you a unique "Young Man" and this is not at all a put down, so please don't take offence as there is none intended! When I hear the words you use and the matter of fact tone you seem to me to be very young.. Do you mind me asking how old you are?? Just curios.. as many of the things you say tell me you are a very young man.
Do you have any experience ever being the family or close friend of a murder victim? I hope you never do as It tears you up inside and makes you question your own existance. There is no way I can explain to you where you will understand that is something you will learn through life experience.. I hope that you get through it as well as I.. I almost didn't! Other members of my family have ruined their lives dealing with this pain.. they have turned to drugs to forget others just become bitter and angry..hostile and very short tempered... You should live awhile and have some more life experiences before you try to decide one way or the other..its really much more the yes or no, its not that simple...
Karen
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Well i hope i don't offend you by telling you i have served 4 prison sentences and have made the national papers in 1998. I have been hooked on heroin and am an alcoholic. All this at 28. That does'nt mean that i can't now behave like a normal citizen and have an opinion that criminals should be adequately punished. Forums need outspoken people otherwise they become stale.
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
Well i hope i don't offend you by telling you i have served 4 prison sentences and have made the national papers in 1998. I have been hooked on heroin and am an alcoholic. All this at 28. That does'nt mean that i can't now behave like a normal citizen and have an opinion that criminals should be adequately punished. Forums need outspoken people otherwise they become stale.
Why should we be offended? As you say, you are still a human being.
That you use the term 'alcoholic' in the present tense is of concern, but it is concern over your well-being, not anything else.
But, I would still ask, of the prison sentences you served, would they not have been better served if they had focused more of rehabilitation than on punishment, on giving you the strength to live without props like alcohol?
I would also ask, when you were on heroin, could you imagine yourself having committed murder while in that state (many heroin addicts do)? While you were an addict, would any deterrent have been strong enough to match the need to find the next fix?
Sorry if I am asking my questions with assumption that may be more from ignorance than personal experience, and feel free to tell me where you feel my understanding of addiction and its effects (at least insofar they applied to your experience) may be flawed.
George
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I know what you mean. When you are 'clucking' it makes you irrational and you do things you would'nt normally. I would never kill anybody because i have'nt got it in my nature but i still agree with capital punishment. The reason for that is because it is killing to prevent killing so it is justified in my view.
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
I know what you mean. When you are 'clucking' it makes you irrational and you do things you would'nt normally. I would never kill anybody because i have'nt got it in my nature but i still agree with capital punishment. The reason for that is because it is killing to prevent killing so it is justified in my view.
But then, if these people can be brought off heroin, and become perfectly good citizens, then have you not wasted a life unnecessarily?
In any case, capital punishment is not about preventing killing, it is after the event. Now if we had capital punishment for all people with the potential to kill, before they actually do kill, then that would be another matter (was there not a film recently along that theme?).
Ofcourse, if you kill everyone who has the capacity to take human life, who would you have left to be your executioners (or your soldiers)?
George
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
Well i hope i don't offend you by telling you i have served 4 prison sentences and have made the national papers in 1998. I have been hooked on heroin and am an alcoholic. All this at 28. That does'nt mean that i can't now behave like a normal citizen and have an opinion that criminals should be adequately punished. Forums need outspoken people otherwise they become stale.
Hi Andy - I certainly am not offended by you having served 4 prison terms. You are very young to have gone through all that. What's important is that you've learned from your past, both the failures and successes.
We all have things from our past that we're not so proud of. For instance, I bet most people would be surprised to know that I too have been charged with a felony. I did not serve prison time fortunately, but I was arrested, and fingerprinted and all of that humiliating stuff that goes with it. I'm currently under a deferred prosecution agreement for the next few years, so if I screw up, I could very well go to prison. I didn't make the national news, but it might as well have been (I live in a tiny little town). I was the lead story in the local news, papers and radio. It was by far, one of the most trying times of my life. The humiliation was almost unbearable for me. I lost my business, and my family was subjected to the humiliation as well. That's probably what was the hardest for me, knowing what my loved ones were having to deal with because of me. I found out very quickly who my friends were.
Please don't take this as a criticism, it is certainly not meant that way. I'm just very curious about this. For me, going through all of this has given me more compassion. I used to be very unsympathetic when it came to law breakers and was very much for the death penalty. Now I guess I can see both sides. What purpose would it serve for me to have spent time in prison? I'm still "paying back my debt to society", so to speak. It would've cost the tax payers a lot more money to send me to prison, my children would suffer and my husband quite possibly would've ended up on welfare.
I know my crime doesn't compare to murder, but I still have a very hard time, for lack of a better term, sitting in judgement of people.
Carolyn
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Very well spoken Carolyn. It is amazing how many "good" people had a bad rap just because a mistake...don't we all make mistakes? I was on jury duty one time for someone who was allegedly accused of a major crime...I was the minority as I would not follow the pack of wolves sitting in the stand...the Top Juror Jerk...sorry, I know that is not what they are called...wanted us all to vote guilty because of "circumstantial evidence" I asked to review a tape again...still it did not look like him, face shape totally different and I pointed it out...but no one cared..."someone needed to pay for the haneous crime, being that he fit the profile he was the perfect candidate" I was also told by the foreman that he was bound to do something anyways and we were protecting society...uh, how do you know that was my argument? He said, because he fits the background of most killers...Amazing huh? I argued with this Jerk for 3 hours and everyone was mad at me! They did not care. I asked him if he was psychic, or any certification he may have to know...then told me he owned his own business...I told him, oh, yeah, you are a thief as you rip everyone off and maybe involved with the mafia...oh, boy it set him on fire...I told him I had the same certifications as he did...NONE to assume this because of his background...hung jury...man was let go free and clear of charges...when the Jerk was asked by someone from the media(after being told we were not allowed to talk to them...soundslike a lawbreaker to me...he told them there was not enough conclusive evidence and most of us said he was not guilty...when the votes were counted...only 1 was not guilty..hmmm, was it him or me? It was me (most of the jurors slept through our argument and did not hear a worddddd!)
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
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I hear that Loretta and carolyn.. Hi Geaorge nice points..
Andy you do not shock me or worry me in any way... I think you are a bright young man .. and I'm sorry you have been through and are going through such an ordeal in your life.. You seem to think I don't think you can function in normal society.. Oh contraire, I think you can.. and you should be allowed to .. As should all people should be given the oportunity to grow from their mistakes and reestablish themselves into a society which in the perfect world would welcome them back.. It is sad that alot of people and you must be awre do not welcome those in your shoes back into society.. I am not one of those people and you do not shock me.. I love human beings and therefore Try to always find the good in everyone I meet.. So please don't worry about that but thanks for the answer to your age.. I see you are very young, I seen your picture earlier, You remind me of my son and daughter.. He is 21 and she is turning 25 so that accounts for why I felt you were so young.. I could feel young vibes...LOL ! I wish you luck in your lifes Journey and hope that your future gets brighter and people treat you fairly and Kindly!! We certainly don't begrudge you your opinion and I see you have a strong one.. Seems that you were bothered by our opinion.. but they are after all opinions and if you go back and read my post.. You will see that I said, This is the best thing for me.... I cannot make this decision for anyone else and I feel you should do the same.. I had to let go of what others thought and then learn for myself what I could live with!! Your experience will guide you in the direction it dictates as long as you follow your heart and your conscience!
Karen
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If someone, or a Country, kills for revenge or as a punishment, makes the same crime of murder of the murderer.
You cannot simply say: "but I'm right" or "The Country is right".
The killer could say the same, and he would be right, because everyone can have "right" human motivations.
Furthermore, even if in some cases it could be true that such an extreme punishment is a deterrent against crimes and, maybe, useful to change in better a person's behaviour, however this is not always true.
So, I'm against death penalty not because I'm compassionate, in general, with murderers (even if I could be in some cases), but because I'm not compassionate with who makes that sentence.
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Originally posted by Carolyn
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Originally posted by Andy28
Well i hope i don't offend you by telling you i have served 4 prison sentences and have made the national papers in 1998. I have been hooked on heroin and am an alcoholic. All this at 28. That does'nt mean that i can't now behave like a normal citizen and have an opinion that criminals should be adequately punished. Forums need outspoken people otherwise they become stale.
Hi Andy - I certainly am not offended by you having served 4 prison terms. You are very young to have gone through all that. What's important is that you've learned from your past, both the failures and successes.
We all have things from our past that we're not so proud of. For instance, I bet most people would be surprised to know that I too have been charged with a felony. I did not serve prison time fortunately, but I was arrested, and fingerprinted and all of that humiliating stuff that goes with it. I'm currently under a deferred prosecution agreement for the next few years, so if I screw up, I could very well go to prison. I didn't make the national news, but it might as well have been (I live in a tiny little town). I was the lead story in the local news, papers and radio. It was by far, one of the most trying times of my life. The humiliation was almost unbearable for me. I lost my business, and my family was subjected to the humiliation as well. That's probably what was the hardest for me, knowing what my loved ones were having to deal with because of me. I found out very quickly who my friends were.
Please don't take this as a criticism, it is certainly not meant that way. I'm just very curious about this. For me, going through all of this has given me more compassion. I used to be very unsympathetic when it came to law breakers and was very much for the death penalty. Now I guess I can see both sides. What purpose would it serve for me to have spent time in prison? I'm still "paying back my debt to society", so to speak. It would've cost the tax payers a lot more money to send me to prison, my children would suffer and my husband quite possibly would've ended up on welfare.
I know my crime doesn't compare to murder, but I still have a very hard time, for lack of a better term, sitting in judgement of people.
Carolyn
This was my point earlier. First people say the death penalty is wrong and next comes 'what purpose would my imprisonment serve'. We have to have rules and we have to be punished when we break them. That is the purpose - punishment.
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I think that sombody murders another, they should live in prison the number of years that person that was murdered had left in his/her live, to a minimum of 15. If a person that was murdered at 50 and was projected to live till 80, the killer should be in prison for 30 years.
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I would engage you in a battle of wits, but it is against my moral code to attack the unarmed.
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Originally posted by Andy28
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Originally posted by Carolyn
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Originally posted by Andy28
Well i hope i don't offend you by telling you i have served 4 prison sentences and have made the national papers in 1998. I have been hooked on heroin and am an alcoholic. All this at 28. That does'nt mean that i can't now behave like a normal citizen and have an opinion that criminals should be adequately punished. Forums need outspoken people otherwise they become stale.
Hi Andy - I certainly am not offended by you having served 4 prison terms. You are very young to have gone through all that. What's important is that you've learned from your past, both the failures and successes.
We all have things from our past that we're not so proud of. For instance, I bet most people would be surprised to know that I too have been charged with a felony. I did not serve prison time fortunately, but I was arrested, and fingerprinted and all of that humiliating stuff that goes with it. I'm currently under a deferred prosecution agreement for the next few years, so if I screw up, I could very well go to prison. I didn't make the national news, but it might as well have been (I live in a tiny little town). I was the lead story in the local news, papers and radio. It was by far, one of the most trying times of my life. The humiliation was almost unbearable for me. I lost my business, and my family was subjected to the humiliation as well. That's probably what was the hardest for me, knowing what my loved ones were having to deal with because of me. I found out very quickly who my friends were.
Please don't take this as a criticism, it is certainly not meant that way. I'm just very curious about this. For me, going through all of this has given me more compassion. I used to be very unsympathetic when it came to law breakers and was very much for the death penalty. Now I guess I can see both sides. What purpose would it serve for me to have spent time in prison? I'm still "paying back my debt to society", so to speak. It would've cost the tax payers a lot more money to send me to prison, my children would suffer and my husband quite possibly would've ended up on welfare.
I know my crime doesn't compare to murder, but I still have a very hard time, for lack of a better term, sitting in judgement of people.
Carolyn
This was my point earlier. First people say the death penalty is wrong and next comes 'what purpose would my imprisonment serve'. We have to have rules and we have to be punished when we break them. That is the purpose - punishment.
I did not say that I should not have been punished.
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What purpose would it serve for me to have spent time in prison? I'm still "paying back my debt to society", so to speak. It would've cost the tax payers a lot more money to send me to prison, my children would suffer and my husband quite possibly would've ended up on welfare.
I said what purpose would it have served for me to go to prison? I was punished, quite severely, thank you very much. I am still being punished, and will continue to be punished for another 2-3 years. The only people that suffered from my crime were my family and myself.
Carolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by science_guy
I think that sombody murders another, they should live in prison the number of years that person that was murdered had left in his/her live, to a minimum of 15. If a person that was murdered at 50 and was projected to live till 80, the killer should be in prison for 30 years.
Sorry, but does this mean you get less of a sentence for murdering a smoker than a non-smoker, less for murdering an obese person than a person who has supposedly an ideal body mass index, does killing a defencless 95 year old widow deserve only a minimum sentence (and if her expected life expectance was only 80 years at the time - do you get 15 years credit)?
George
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolyn
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Originally posted by Andy28
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Originally posted by Carolyn
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Originally posted by Andy28
Well i hope i don't offend you by telling you i have served 4 prison sentences and have made the national papers in 1998. I have been hooked on heroin and am an alcoholic. All this at 28. That does'nt mean that i can't now behave like a normal citizen and have an opinion that criminals should be adequately punished. Forums need outspoken people otherwise they become stale.
Hi Andy - I certainly am not offended by you having served 4 prison terms. You are very young to have gone through all that. What's important is that you've learned from your past, both the failures and successes.
We all have things from our past that we're not so proud of. For instance, I bet most people would be surprised to know that I too have been charged with a felony. I did not serve prison time fortunately, but I was arrested, and fingerprinted and all of that humiliating stuff that goes with it. I'm currently under a deferred prosecution agreement for the next few years, so if I screw up, I could very well go to prison. I didn't make the national news, but it might as well have been (I live in a tiny little town). I was the lead story in the local news, papers and radio. It was by far, one of the most trying times of my life. The humiliation was almost unbearable for me. I lost my business, and my family was subjected to the humiliation as well. That's probably what was the hardest for me, knowing what my loved ones were having to deal with because of me. I found out very quickly who my friends were.
Please don't take this as a criticism, it is certainly not meant that way. I'm just very curious about this. For me, going through all of this has given me more compassion. I used to be very unsympathetic when it came to law breakers and was very much for the death penalty. Now I guess I can see both sides. What purpose would it serve for me to have spent time in prison? I'm still "paying back my debt to society", so to speak. It would've cost the tax payers a lot more money to send me to prison, my children would suffer and my husband quite possibly would've ended up on welfare.
I know my crime doesn't compare to murder, but I still have a very hard time, for lack of a better term, sitting in judgement of people.
Carolyn
This was my point earlier. First people say the death penalty is wrong and next comes 'what purpose would my imprisonment serve'. We have to have rules and we have to be punished when we break them. That is the purpose - punishment.
I did not say that I should not have been punished.
quote:
What purpose would it serve for me to have spent time in prison? I'm still "paying back my debt to society", so to speak. It would've cost the tax payers a lot more money to send me to prison, my children would suffer and my husband quite possibly would've ended up on welfare.
I said what purpose would it have served for me to go to prison? I was punished, quite severely, thank you very much. I am still being punished, and will continue to be punished for another 2-3 years. The only people that suffered from my crime were my family and myself.
Carolyn
I'm not saying that in your particular case that you should have been banged up. Seeing as you were'nt it must have been a misdemeanor as your country will send you to jail for almost anything. I do think the USA goes over the top when it comes to length of sentence for other things other than murder. I heard one guy got 7 years for drink driving and another got life for nicking pizza (Under the 3 strikes and you're out law)!
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Originally posted by Andy28
I'm not saying that in your particular case that you should have been banged up. Seeing as you were'nt it must have been a misdemeanor as your country will send you to jail for almost anything. I do think the USA goes over the top when it comes to length of sentence for other things other than murder. I heard one guy got 7 years for drink driving and another got life for nicking pizza (Under the 3 strikes and you're out law)!
No misdemeanor. Two felonies and was facing up to 5 years in prison, and $5,000.00 in fines.
Carolyn
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I'm not really clued up on the American justice thing. What does felony mean? I take it it means you are in the sh*t?
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Originally posted by Andy28
I'm not really clued up on the American justice thing. What does felony mean? I take it it means you are in the sh*t?
LOL. Yep, that's pretty much what it means. A felony is a crime of a 'grave' or serious nature, punishable by more than one year in prison. A misdemeanor is a crime that is less serious and usually punishable by less than one jear in jail, and by a fine of generally not to exceed $2,500.00.
Carolyn
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Although one thing we have to clarify, that Carolyn's crime was not of a violent nature, and she never actually posed a real threat to the average citizen (it is what some people would classify as a 'victimless crime').
George
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Good grief, I forgot to say that didn't I. I can't believe I left that out, it was an important fact. Thank you for looking out for me George - again.
Carolyn
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What was the crime Carolyn? Sorry if it's too personal but i am nosey. Not only that but i very much doubt it will be anything that i would be horrified by. You seem like you just made a mistake, thats all.
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No, it's not too personal. I'm very nosey myself. The exact charges were failure to file tax returns, and failure to produce business records for inspection as required by law. My opinion is that my actual crime was ignorance. I started my business with a lousy accountant that disappeared and I didn't hire another one. I didn't know anything about the restaurant business when I opened it. I spent all of my time learning how to operate and keep a restaurant running, but didn't take the time to learn the accounting end of it. I buried my head in the sand and hoped all the problems would just go away. I didn't make just one mistake, I made a whole series of them. But hindsight is 20/20.
Carolyn
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Lol. They were out of order taking you to court over that. I thought you were gonna say you were done with armed robbery or something. Anyway, the main thing is you did'nt go down eh?
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Boy Carolyn I have so been there..Back Taxes Fortunantly I was able to fix it.. before it proceded to that , but I burried my head to, and it did not help!! Ours was a new business also.. what a scarey mess... Never again!!
Karen
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Darn....Bad A--Betty...if it were armed robbery....it would've been so juicy for your rep here...hehe
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
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Armed Robery is the other way around when your talking business taxes etc.. The business man has to pay out of the nose in tons of different taxes!
Karen
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I know, I have been there and done that..no fun and reputable accountants...the percentages are no fun when looking for one that does not charge an arm and a leg
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
Lol. They were out of order taking you to court over that. I thought you were gonna say you were done with armed robbery or something.
The nature of the law is that before it protects the citizen, it protects the government, and that means protecting the government's source of revenue, and protecting the government's authority.
They took her to court first and foremost to protect their authority.
George
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Originally posted by another_someone
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Originally posted by Andy28
Lol. They were out of order taking you to court over that. I thought you were gonna say you were done with armed robbery or something.
The nature of the law is that before it protects the citizen, it protects the government, and that means protecting the government's source of revenue, and protecting the government's authority.
They took her to court first and foremost to protect their authority.
George
Right you are George. They filed charges and were extremely hard on me. My lawyer, as well as a few reputable accountants, said the State was making an example of me to show the rest of the business community that they better cooperate. After they filed charges and the community saw what I went through, the State went after several businesses in the area. To the best of my knowledge, they all cooperated and payed out their noses.
Carolyn
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So you became the "Martha S" in your community as they did the same thing to her....
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
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Yes exactly. Every where I went, people whispered and giggled. I had been very active in my church, and was a Sunday school teacher for the teenagers. Almost the entire church community turned against me. It broke my heart. You would've thought I had burned their homes down or something equally bad. Of course, now they're real sweet. You know the type, sugar wouldn't melt in their mouths.
Carolyn
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Hmmm, did the church do that too? Oh, yeah...the lovely sugary type...I had something similar happen when I sent my son to Kansas one summer and my biological mother and him got into it...(he was my scientist and also, he was the principal person in the family(Just like him mom...oh brother!)He would verbalize something if he didn't think it was right? So she hit my son on the head with a shoe! He threw it back at her and it struck her cheek(can't blame him, as she had cursed him out on top of hitting him on the head for that one...)She called the police on him..he was stuck in the system for 2yrs...I had to hire an attorney and fight her legally as she tried to get him taken from me and the state of Kansas...You would not believe how they militantly took him from her house and I could not drive there quick enough (51/2hrs from here)to protect him. He was locked in the system, we went to court the next day...they ordered him into an immediate Juvenile home...I was stunned...I hired an attorney quickly...my mother was going down for this one...she told the court I was hooked on drugs and an alcoholic mother!!! I came back distraught of losing one of my sons and swore she would never have another one visit her again let alone see her once he was free! They allowed her more rights than me...a parent with nothing taken away from her and they assumed it was true. They did background checks on me, home studies, etc...and I was clean as a whistle...sanely sound(oh, boy...how did I pass that one? LOL)Kids were stable...and then another big whammie...I was a single parent and could not provide a stablized male influence in their lives..they wanted to work with Texas about removing kids...uh, Texas told them to kiss their hind quarters after they did their investigation and home studies again...stating that their findings was I was a single parent without support from the father and reviewing my court documents from the divorce, agreed that the father should have no rights to them at all as he would definitely be detrimental in their lives as an influence. Texas social worker stated she could not believe she was doing homestudies on us...she felt like it was a waste of time as I was providing a home(which I was buying)clothes, and food. Also, the boys were busy with activities, school grades were honor roll for each of them...when Michael went there, he manipulated the system, he wouldn't go to school as they couldn't make him, it was against his rights, flunking grades, intolerable behaviour. I was angry and took action and dared them to come up against my decision to be a distant parent...I went to Kansas once a month(all the visitation they would allow me)made daily calls to wake him up for school in the morning(as the state didn't know what to do??)"bribed him with a gameboy so he would go to school and pull up those stupid grades he was getting(he did not get in trouble for as they advised him of his rights there)called him after I would get off work to make sure he attended school and was doing his work..etc..He did and passed...when I rewarded him with gameboy...the state became angry...They said it was bribery...I accused them of trying to keep my son from me (which the courts agreed)and trying to turn him into a real juvenile...they put him on ridlin and some other ridiculous medicine...I had to fire my attorney as he was not doing anything he was supposed to and working in their hands...I was advised by the judge this was not a wise move and I advised the judge back after reviewing the amount of money I paid and the representation I received I had a 50-50 chance...I had to take parenting classes and they released me after 3 classes as I took all the written tests and passed...geez. Judge thought it was impressive...I told her I thought it was ridiculous as no one tested me before I had those kids...she laughed. Then December 10, 2002 arrived the day Michael was supposed to be released back to me after my victory...mother was sad as she knew she would never see my kids again while she was alive. I faced her in court and told her in front of the judge and her representative and that she made a big mistake with me as she did my father...but my kids will always be the closest thing to me....she should've decided on having a relationship with me instead of trying to have my kids taken from me. As she found out, I was not a drug addict nor an alcoholic but through the findings of the court, home studies, and in person, I was more of a parent than she was ever to me, to take this to heart and try to forgive my father who has passed on and stop hating herself and learn to live again. The Judge applauded on my final statement. I addressed the state of Kansas and their representation to let them know I wanted to make sure they were aware of my written orders of release of my wonderful son they promised to never let me have him again(which the lady who said that was fired for that horrible statement)That they better pray for the 7yrs I have to think about a recourse in action to take against them they better be quiet and never militantly take any of my sons whenever I am in the state of Kansas and also comply to the courts orders as I am watching them carefully and have an attorney in Texas who would be glad to take them to court...I advised them my son would be in a doctor's office first thing to be re-evaluated for all the diagnosis they gave him and the medicine better not affect him as he will can take them to court later when he is old enough. The state rested their case and wished me luck and no more than that as a statement...which I was documented still...my records were better than theirs...it was not a pretty 2 years...I lost time with my son...but what a joyful reunion when they had to bring him back 100 miles away from my home...I would like to say this was the end of Kansas issues...but it was not...I had to deal with them infringing on my rights as a parent as they took valuable documents from me and lost them...but I did get them returned after another court battle (birth certificate and shot records)School here did not want Michael in school without them...I had to use our constitution to keep him in school...Yes, Carolyn, the school knew me by name everytime I walked in it...I don't think they cared for me much...hehe
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
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Man Loretta, I am so glad you are my friend... you stood up and fought for those children as I know you would as you have for me... You are a wonderful mother and I think you Deserve a star!!!!! I wish I could give you one.... Daniel.. Can you give the lady a star??? I don't know how to do the pics!!
Karen
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OMG Loretta. That's a terrible thing to have to go through. I can't imagine how difficult that must've been. Your boys are blessed to have you as their mom. I'm so sorry that happenend to you and your family. I bet you found out you had a lot more strength than you ever thought possible. Maybe we should start calling you bad a betty.
Carolyn
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Loretta, that is truel unbelievable, it's so sad that you and your boys had to go through that. I'm blown away, I don't know what to say apart from you are an amazing wonderful woman.
And that also goes to you Karen and Carolyn, you girls, and not forgetting Gaia are my favourite internet girls (and my friend tracie on another site). I love you all, you are all truely amazing, wonderful, special, lovely and sexy girls.
Ooooop almost forgot this
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.villagephotos.com%2Fp%2F2002-5%2F22659%2FDrusy-Gold-Star-1a.gif&hash=64deb0c0659787f4a23e1c34b17adad4)
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Flying Monkey Slayer AKA The Big Cheese says:
Of all the things I have lost, I miss my mind the most
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Lo, your kids are SO lucky to have you as their mum!
Gaia xxx
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quote:
Originally posted by Karen W.
Man Loretta, I am so glad you are my friend... you stood up and fought for those children as I know you would as you have for me... You are a wonderful mother and I think you Deserve a star!!!!! I wish I could give you one.... Daniel.. Can you give the lady a star??? I don't know how to do the pics!!
Karen
Yeah, it was the most stressful time in my life ever! At the same time that Kansas took my son, I made it back and my house caught on fire. Then the smart socialworker called me and said, "I would never get my son back!" I was a documenting queen....2 months later, she lost her job once I made copies of my documented phone calls with dates and times on it along with copies of my phone bills...uh, they had to do something quick with her...I was just a bit upset and my attorney had to be told what to do and that is why after so long into the process I fired him and went on my own. They kept sending me documents of trying to get me to sign over my son....I would send them back certified with no signature....with one phrase written across it....I will see you in court, please send the date and time when you get this on the docket!
You are so wonderful thank you Karen! I am that way with anyone dear to me. My job was very supportive as I told them when it came to my family I will fight to survive, but we will be together! [B)] They supported me and said, just let us know when you need off and we will honour that...and they did![:D]
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolyn
OMG Loretta. That's a terrible thing to have to go through. I can't imagine how difficult that must've been. Your boys are blessed to have you as their mom. I'm so sorry that happenend to you and your family. I bet you found out you had a lot more strength than you ever thought possible. Maybe we should start calling you bad a betty.
Carolyn
Carolyn, I felt like my life was taken, I was physically ill from stress during that first week and lost more sleep than I care to remember. I cried and cried. Those heartless socialworkers would hang up on me and much more. I wanted answers and they would tell me my answers would be when I gave in and gave up my son. They told me they would run me out of money before I would get my son. I told them they would have to kill me first before I would ever give up....and then told me I was suicidal! aagghh! I did not think I was going to make it, but I did.[:D] I will never forget the look in my mother's eye when I told her that in the courtroom. She never apologized and I still gave her a chance before she died...but she died before we could see her on her deathbed.[:(]
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
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Lo - I'm so proud to know you. You are a true example of "that which does not kill us makes us stronger". You obviously excell at the hardest job on the planet. Being a parent. Love you babe!
Carolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Gaia
Lo, your kids are SO lucky to have you as their mum!
Gaia xxx
Thank you Gaia! I felt so bad as my oldest and youngest missed out on a lot of things those two years. I told them as a family we must do everything we can to keep from losing one another...I pray they remember it. After reviewing my son's Magnum's page...he has as his hero me! LOL It made me feel good anyways. He knows I went to bat for him in a couple of situations too...and I do believe he remembers.[:)]
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
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Carolyn, you are wonderful to say so. I made a lot of mistakes as for some reason, when the little guys were born someone threw away their manuals? Parenting was the toughest thing I have ever done...I think the hardest part was discipline...in fact, my middle son said he thought it was funny as I would ground them to school when we got home when they were grounded...hehe They would get out of school come home, sit on the couch for 30 mins to begin with gripe about their day...then I would oversee them with their homework, and additionally give them a page(from computer)of their weakest subject and they had 30 minutes to complete the assignment and turn it in. Sometimes it would be fun and sometimes not. Michael would try to be funny and try to get out of "my class" like can he see the principal. I would grab a hat and put it on...hehe He would be in shock after I told him now I am the principal what I could help him with..and so on and so on for different characters from the school, counselor, advisor, cafeteria lady-as he couldn't wait for his snack before dinner...Magnum and Danny would just play along with it so school would be over quicker. LOL
Love you too as you are an amazing parent too.
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
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Wow Loretta you are definetly a keeper!! GOOD FOR YOU TO STAND SO STRONG!!
Karen
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Those boys had me going...2 of the 3 didnt like writing so essays was the order for them..hehe
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
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Pretty Good thinking! Your a good mom!!
Karen
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don't know about that...but Daniel had to deal with science...chemistry/physics...not his strongest subject
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
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Poor nic is mad at me because I took away his xbox 360 for bringing home 2 b's on progress report.
Carolyn
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What subjects?
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
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Literature and Social Studies. The only reason he doesn't have an A in both of these is because the little bugger is making an F in the homework portion of his grades. He's making a C in algebra, but I know he's trying in that class and he's only a few points away from a b, so he has time to get his grade up before report cards come out. I don't know about science yet, but he better be doing well in that too.
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Definitely AGAINST!!! What does the Bible say about killing???
"Thou shalt not kill" Jesus didn't give any "exceptions" to this law. I haven't ever read in the Bible where it says "Thou shalt not kill unless you are killing a murderer"...ummmmmmmmm, NO! Sorry!
~Joy~
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NIce Joy! Welcome to Just Chat, nice to see you here!!
Karen
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Literature can be loads of fun with him if you make it into a game for him Carolyn(he is a male...lol)I used to make games out of their lessons so they had to guess the answers, of course I had to take time and read their lessons and would get the copy of the teacher's lesson plan so I would know where they were at and work with them at home over these subjects...Social Studies....another one, read over it, make up questions with bountiful awards, such as a night at his favourite restaurant...(I did favourite event...ended up at a wrestling match a few times...ewww...football games, basketball games, went to where the cowboys practice so we could autographs, river to tube, race waterboats, miniature golf, ride horses, six flags, glenrose park to look at dinosaur tracks, rock museum, toilet lid museum, science fair park, and etc...different rewards instead of just money all the time. (Looked for places for them to have fun and learn too...even on family vacations, where we panned for gold, went to the US Mint, historical places like Liberty Bell, Constitution..many of the museums etc)
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
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THAT IS A GREAT TOOL LORETTA.. WORKED FOR MY OLDER BOY TOO! nOW HE READS EVERYTHING AND GET THIS, HE'S A GREASE MONKEY AND HE LOVES SHAKESSPHERE!! WHO'D OF THUNK.. THE DOCTOR TOLD ME AND HIM THAT HE WOUYLD NEVER BE ABLE TO READ WITH HIS LEARNING DISABILITY! THE KID HAS NO LEARNING DISABILITY OTHER THEN MOTIVATION.. BUT WHEN THE DOCTOR SAID THAT IT BROKE MY HEART AND p****D HIM OFF! SORRY HE SAID TO ME MIND YOU HE WAS 8 YEARS OLD AND COULD READ HARDLY ANYTHING..BUT HE GRABBED MY HAND IN THE CAR WHEN LEAVING DOCTORS OFFICE AS I WAS CRYING AND HE SAID, DON'T CRY MOMMIE, HE IS WRONG I AM GOING TO READ JUST FINE, I PROMISE...! WELL LET ME SAY HE READS CONSTANTLY AND LOVES IT HE READS WELL AND WHEN HE IS HOME HE IS CONSTANTLY READING AND HAS BECOME QUITE THE BOOKWORM, LOVES HISTORY SCIENCE, MYTHOLOGY, EVERYTHING, THE THEATER THE ARTS AND HAS BECOME QUITE THE LITTLE POET, COWBOY POETRYT, BUT VERY GOOD...RODEO STUFF!
Karen
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quote:
Originally posted by tootsie78
Definitely AGAINST!!! What does the Bible say about killing???
"Thou shalt not kill" Jesus didn't give any "exceptions" to this law. I haven't ever read in the Bible where it says "Thou shalt not kill unless you are killing a murderer"...ummmmmmmmm, NO! Sorry!
~Joy~
Unfortunately, that is something of a simplification.
As I understand it, "thou shalt not kill” was one of the 10 commandments brought down the mount by Moses, and was not something Jesus himself gave us. But then, one also has to remember that Moses lead his people into battle against many enemies, and was merciless in his pursuit and destruction of his enemies. There are also many parts of the bible where there is some controversy as to whether Jesus was himself as much of a pacifist as many modern Christians would wish to believe (he certainly was not averse to carrying a sword – although carrying and using is not the same thing).
George
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I understand where Joy is comming from but agree with you George as there are many a wars waged in the bible and not just by non believers!!
Karen
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolyn
Literature and Social Studies. The only reason he doesn't have an A in both of these is because the little bugger is making an F in the homework portion of his grades. He's making a C in algebra, but I know he's trying in that class and he's only a few points away from a b, so he has time to get his grade up before report cards come out. I don't know about science yet, but he better be doing well in that too.
Don't you think you are being a tad unreasonable. My mum used to try and push me all the time and i ended up going the opposite way to rebel against her. So what if he did'nt get A grades?
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quote:
Originally posted by tootsie78
Definitely AGAINST!!! What does the Bible say about killing???
"Thou shalt not kill" Jesus didn't give any "exceptions" to this law. I haven't ever read in the Bible where it says "Thou shalt not kill unless you are killing a murderer"...ummmmmmmmm, NO! Sorry!
~Joy~
Thou shall not kill - exactly. Murderers kill and that is why god made us carry out his will when they do (ie, execute them).
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Good morning Andy.. How are you this morning? I hope your weekend is going smoothly!
Karen
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Yeah it is. My partner has gone out for the night with her mates for the first time in ages so i got some peace for the first time in ages.
I'm just sitting here with my dog and my cider, lol.
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Sounds like a relaxing time.. What kind of dog do you have? I like dogs!!
Karen
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
quote:
Originally posted by Carolyn
Literature and Social Studies. The only reason he doesn't have an A in both of these is because the little bugger is making an F in the homework portion of his grades. He's making a C in algebra, but I know he's trying in that class and he's only a few points away from a b, so he has time to get his grade up before report cards come out. I don't know about science yet, but he better be doing well in that too.
Don't you think you are being a tad unreasonable. My mum used to try and push me all the time and i ended up going the opposite way to rebel against her. So what if he did'nt get A grades?
Hi Andy - I know I sound unreasonable here. Yes a B is a good grade. If it were the best he could do, then I would be satisfied. But it is way below his abilities. The only reason he isn't making A's in these subjects is because he doesn't do his homework. He has been reading since he was a 4 year old. He loves to read. He's one of the few boys his age (that I know) that reads for pleasure. He just doesn't want to spend an hour an evening doing homework. He'd rather play his video games or be online.
His punishment isn't really about the B, it's about the F in his homework. I couldn't tell you if his IQ is genius or not, but I do know his intelligence is well above average. He has big dreams for his future and that includes college. I consider it one of my most important jobs as his mom, to do everthing within my power to help him see his dreams come true. I don't want him to look back in 10-15 years and have regrets about what he should've done with his education.
I appreciate your concern about me pushing him too far. I worry about that as well, so I am careful to pay attention as to when to push and when to back off. Notice I didn't punish him about the C in algebra. I know he's working hard to do better there. And if I do push to hard, he's quick to remind me to back off, because he'll be the one picking out my nursing home.[:D]
Carolyn
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LOL good job MOM!! Sounds Like my kids!
Karen
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
Thou shall not kill - exactly. Murderers kill and that is why god made us carry out his will when they do (ie, execute them).
I think the simple answer to this is that two wrongs don't make a right.
George
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolyn
Yes exactly. Every where I went, people whispered and giggled. I had been very active in my church, and was a Sunday school teacher for the teenagers. Almost the entire church community turned against me. It broke my heart. You would've thought I had burned their homes down or something equally bad. Of course, now they're real sweet. You know the type, sugar wouldn't melt in their mouths.
Carolyn
I have to say that I find this disgraceful behaviour from any group of people (I am not even going to go into the hypocrisy of a church that preaches forgiveness and inclusion – and in Jesus's own words “let him who is without sin cast the first stone”). But then, maybe it is an unfortunate aspect of human nature that he who preaches the loudest least follows their own doctrine – maybe one should listen more to the quiet voices to show by their actions and not by their load words.
George
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolyn
Hi Andy - I know I sound unreasonable here. Yes a B is a good grade. If it were the best he could do, then I would be satisfied. But it is way below his abilities. The only reason he isn't making A's in these subjects is because he doesn't do his homework. He has been reading since he was a 4 year old. He loves to read. He's one of the few boys his age (that I know) that reads for pleasure. He just doesn't want to spend an hour an evening doing homework. He'd rather play his video games or be online.
His punishment isn't really about the B, it's about the F in his homework. I couldn't tell you if his IQ is genius or not, but I do know his intelligence is well above average. He has big dreams for his future and that includes college. I consider it one of my most important jobs as his mom, to do everthing within my power to help him see his dreams come true. I don't want him to look back in 10-15 years and have regrets about what he should've done with his education.
I appreciate your concern about me pushing him too far. I worry about that as well, so I am careful to pay attention as to when to push and when to back off. Notice I didn't punish him about the C in algebra. I know he's working hard to do better there. And if I do push to hard, he's quick to remind me to back off, because he'll be the one picking out my nursing home.[:D]
Carolyn
I have to say that my instinct if to agree with Andy here – but maybe we are both wrong.
I must admit, I never rebelled, but then my mother never really pushed me with regard to schooling – she knew I was learning, and was interested in things, and never really worried too much about what actual grades I got (in fact, her attitude was often that if I knew my stuff, and the school were complaining, then it was the schools problem for not recognising that I had learnt all I was meant to learn).
OK, i will freely admit, all of this has caused me problems – the trouble was that the learning was too easy, so I never learnt the need to put any effort into anything difficult. This is often a problem with bright kids (particularly in a school system that pays more attention to helping the stragglers than to stretching the bright kids – not saying that the stragglers do not need help, but it can be very boring for the bright kids).
It is also a problem that some people are happy just to plod along, and run at 75% capacity all of the time; but other people (particularly boys – it is a gender thing) work better on adrenalin, and are capable of doing 100% for short bursts, and then need to shut down for a while, while the recover their energy. No-one is ever capable of running at 100% capacity all of the time.
George
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quote:
Originally posted by another_someone
quote:
Originally posted by Carolyn
Yes exactly. Every where I went, people whispered and giggled. I had been very active in my church, and was a Sunday school teacher for the teenagers. Almost the entire church community turned against me. It broke my heart. You would've thought I had burned their homes down or something equally bad. Of course, now they're real sweet. You know the type, sugar wouldn't melt in their mouths.
Carolyn
I have to say that I find this disgraceful behaviour from any group of people (I am not even going to go into the hypocrisy of a church that preaches forgiveness and inclusion – and in Jesus's own words “let him who is without sin cast the first stone”). But then, maybe it is an unfortunate aspect of human nature that he who preaches the loudest least follows their own doctrine – maybe one should listen more to the quiet voices to show by their actions and not by their load words.
George
Thanks George. I thought the same thing.
One day, when I had just about reached my breaking point, a minister that I had heard of but never met, called on me. He called me and talked briefly and asked if he could come to my home. I agreed. He turned out to be a retired judge, before that he was a prosecuting attorney. He listened to every aspect of what was going on and was very reassuring. He prayed with my husband and with me. Corky joining in was amazing in itself as he was livid with the religious community in their treatment of me. When this minister left, I felt renewed in my faith. For the first time in months I felt at peace.
I tried to stay at my church but could not handle the hypocrisy any longer, so I left it. The church finally closed it's doors.
Carolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolyn
quote:
Originally posted by Andy28
quote:
Originally posted by Carolyn
Literature and Social Studies. The only reason he doesn't have an A in both of these is because the little bugger is making an F in the homework portion of his grades. He's making a C in algebra, but I know he's trying in that class and he's only a few points away from a b, so he has time to get his grade up before report cards come out. I don't know about science yet, but he better be doing well in that too.
Bravo Bad A-- Betty! LOL
Don't you think you are being a tad unreasonable. My mum used to try and push me all the time and i ended up going the opposite way to rebel against her. So what if he did'nt get A grades?
Hi Andy - I know I sound unreasonable here. Yes a B is a good grade. If it were the best he could do, then I would be satisfied. But it is way below his abilities. The only reason he isn't making A's in these subjects is because he doesn't do his homework. He has been reading since he was a 4 year old. He loves to read. He's one of the few boys his age (that I know) that reads for pleasure. He just doesn't want to spend an hour an evening doing homework. He'd rather play his video games or be online.
His punishment isn't really about the B, it's about the F in his homework. I couldn't tell you if his IQ is genius or not, but I do know his intelligence is well above average. He has big dreams for his future and that includes college. I consider it one of my most important jobs as his mom, to do everthing within my power to help him see his dreams come true. I don't want him to look back in 10-15 years and have regrets about what he should've done with his education.
I appreciate your concern about me pushing him too far. I worry about that as well, so I am careful to pay attention as to when to push and when to back off. Notice I didn't punish him about the C in algebra. I know he's working hard to do better there. And if I do push to hard, he's quick to remind me to back off, because he'll be the one picking out my nursing home.[:D]
Carolyn
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta
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quote:
Originally posted by Carolyn
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone
quote:
Originally posted by Carolyn
Yes exactly. Every where I went, people whispered and giggled. I had been very active in my church, and was a Sunday school teacher for the teenagers. Almost the entire church community turned against me. It broke my heart. You would've thought I had burned their homes down or something equally bad. Of course, now they're real sweet. You know the type, sugar wouldn't melt in their mouths.
Carolyn
Hmmm, it is amazing how people can be...why kill their own, when they should embrace them and support them through this trial![V]
I have to say that I find this disgraceful behaviour from any group of people (I am not even going to go into the hypocrisy of a church that preaches forgiveness and inclusion – and in Jesus's own words “let him who is without sin cast the first stone”). But then, maybe it is an unfortunate aspect of human nature that he who preaches the loudest least follows their own doctrine – maybe one should listen more to the quiet voices to show by their actions and not by their load words.
George
Thanks George. I thought the same thing.
One day, when I had just about reached my breaking point, a minister that I had heard of but never met, called on me. He called me and talked briefly and asked if he could come to my home. I agreed. He turned out to be a retired judge, before that he was a prosecuting attorney. He listened to every aspect of what was going on and was very reassuring. He prayed with my husband and with me. Corky joining in was amazing in itself as he was livid with the religious community in their treatment of me. When this minister left, I felt renewed in my faith. For the first time in months I felt at peace.
I tried to stay at my church but could not handle the hypocrisy any longer, so I left it. The church finally closed it's doors.
Carolyn
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta