[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

In this thread I'd like to discuss if there is a goal or desired condition which is applicable for any organisms who have adequate time to evolve or develop until they are basically independent from condition of their natural environments.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

A universal utopia, if there is one, would be classified as a meme. And just like any other memes, it will compete for its existence in memory space, whether in people's minds or computer's storage devices.

For a start, let's list down common goals people have in their lives, and then analyze them by summarizing their strength, limitations, and underlying assumptions. The candidate(s) for a universal utopia may then be built by combining some of those goals, trimming/pushing their limitations, and scrutinizing their underlying assumptions.

 

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

I googled "goals of your life" on September 11th 2017, and found various answers. Most of them are very narrow, based on specific objects (which are configurations of matter and energy in space and time), hence their applicability will vanish when those objects don't exist anymore. For example, travelling to some places, doing some kind of sport, getting some amount of money, meeting famous people, etc.
Other answers I found include being rich, getting some professional positions, having a family, living a healthy life. Others gave individualistic goals, such us giving/doing something to their community (village, city, tribe, nation, world, humanity). Others gave more religious answers, such as obeying particular God, going to heaven in afterlife, defending their God's religion, etc.
There are also mundane goals such as "living for today", seek for pleasure or pursuing for happiness. There are also interesting goal such as learning and finding the meaning or purpose of life itself.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Skipping object based goals, whose universality can be easily refuted, I'll discuss next type of goals, which is acquiring some kind of characteristics, such as being rich, or being healthy, or being happy. I want to discuss the definitions of those characteristics (describe what is, and what's not), what makes some people put those as their life goals, what are their limitations, and what's next, if they are already reached.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

If this universal goal exist, then all organisms will try to achieve it. Conscious organisms will make plans to achieve it, because the plan can increase the probability to achieve target.
Plans work based on assumption that law of causality applies, otherwise, if everything happens at random, then there would be no point in making plans.

[guest39538]

A universal utopia, if there is one, would be classified as a meme. And just like any other memes, it will compete for its existence in memory space, whether in people's minds or computer's storage devices.

My utopia would have to be based on objective reasoning.   It would also be considered for everyone rather than selfishly for myself. 
In an ideal universe, there would be no motion other than that of ourselves or other species.  Obviously this removes any concern about cosmic collisions. 
Secondly the weather experience would not be random, it would be scheduled and conditions would never be too extreme, there would be a fine balance.
Also I would have a steady state entropy where the balance always remained an equilibrium.
Food and water made by replicators, robots doing all the manual work so ourselves could just do our hobbies or things that are pleasurable.
As for personal goals, I go by each day and go with the flow . I go with whats right and best for me and those I care for.
Survival is the prime goal of  any species.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

A universal utopia, if there is one, would be classified as a meme. And just like any other memes, it will compete for its existence in memory space, whether in people's minds or computer's storage devices.

My utopia would have to be based on objective reasoning.   It would also be considered for everyone rather than selfishly for myself. 
In an ideal universe, there would be no motion other than that of ourselves or other species.  Obviously this removes any concern about cosmic collisions. 
Secondly the weather experience would not be random, it would be scheduled and conditions would never be too extreme, there would be a fine balance.
Also I would have a steady state entropy where the balance always remained an equilibrium.
Food and water made by replicators, robots doing all the manual work so ourselves could just do our hobbies or things that are pleasurable.
As for personal goals, I go by each day and go with the flow . I go with whats right and best for me and those I care for.
Survival is the prime goal of  any species.

Thanks for joining this discussion. I agree with some of your points, but as suggested in the title, I'm interested in finding out goals that can be applied universally.
That universal goals should not be limited by a species, because they wouldn't be applicable before the species even existed, nor after the species extinct or evolved into other species.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

If this universal goal exist, then all organisms will try to achieve it. Conscious organisms will make plans to achieve it, because the plan can increase the probability to achieve target.
Plans work based on assumption that law of causality applies, otherwise, if everything happens at random, then there would be no point in making plans.

Another basic assumption which is necessary to get to a universal goal is that there is an objective reality. Otherwise there would be no cooperation among units of a system that tries to achieve that goal.
Perhaps some of you think that those two basic assumptions are so obvious as not to seem worth stating, but without them, I don't think we can go forward discussing this topic any further.
This reminds me of a Bertrand Russell quote

The point of philosophy is to start with something so simple as not to seem worth stating, and to end with something so paradoxical that no one will believe it.
Bertrand Russell
(https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/bertrand_russell_107179)

We'll see if those basic assumptions will lead us to a paradox.

[guest39538]

Thanks for joining this discussion. I agree with some of your points, but as suggested in the title, I'm interested in finding out goals that can be applied universally.
That universal goals should not be limited by a species, because they wouldn't be applicable before the species even existed, nor after the species extinct or evolved into other species.

Thank you , I guess I did not quite understand your post, now I do.

Universal goals

1) A universal alliance and laws
2) To share knowledge
3) For all to be equal
4) Universal maintenance standards

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Thank you , I guess I did not quite understand your post, now I do.

Universal goals

1) A universal alliance and laws
2) To share knowledge
3) For all to be equal
4) Universal maintenance standards

Can you elaborate more? Is there priority among them?
Perhaps something to support your assertions above? For example, why do we have to share knowledge? what if we don't?
Why do we have to be equal? What is the subject of this equality?
etc

[guest39538]

Thank you , I guess I did not quite understand your post, now I do.

Universal goals

1) A universal alliance and laws
2) To share knowledge
3) For all to be equal
4) Universal maintenance standards

Can you elaborate more? Is there priority among them?
Perhaps something to support your assertions above? For example, why do we have to share knowledge? what if we don't?
Why do we have to be equal? What is the subject of this equality?
etc

I think I already prioritised the order in my previous post.  Let us look at the finer details of the list in order.

1) A universal alliance and laws

Number one is for simplicity,  if we ever discovered intelligent life out there, our prime directive will be firstly to establish a communications ''link''.  We would establish communication by getting over the possible language barrier and befriend our new found friends.  We would then have to establish certain ''laws'' for our alliance.  Pretty standard procedure I would imagine.


2) To share knowledge

What goes around comes around, to share knowledge and technology stops unequal dictatorship.  The power is divided equally rather than a specific continent for example.


3)For all to be equal

Fairness is next to kindness, the green eyed monster cannot exist if things are equal.  Inequality is a form of legalised slavery , the poor picking up the scraps .


4) Universal maintenance standards

Speaks for itself really

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

I think I already prioritised the order in my previous post.  Let us look at the finer details of the list in order.

1) A universal alliance and laws

Number one is for simplicity,  if we ever discovered intelligent life out there, our prime directive will be firstly to establish a communications ''link''.  We would establish communication by getting over the possible language barrier and befriend our new found friends.  We would then have to establish certain ''laws'' for our alliance.  Pretty standard procedure I would imagine.


2) To share knowledge

What goes around comes around, to share knowledge and technology stops unequal dictatorship.  The power is divided equally rather than a specific continent for example.


3)For all to be equal

Fairness is next to kindness, the green eyed monster cannot exist if things are equal.  Inequality is a form of legalised slavery , the poor picking up the scraps .


4) Universal maintenance standards

Speaks for itself really

What makes point#1 more important than point#2? etc.

What is the goal of the alliance and laws? We need to distinct the goal and the method to achieve the goal (may be we can call it intermediate goal).
Why do we have to share knowledge? why do we have to stop unequal dictatorship? why do we have to be fair? equal? why must we have maintenance standard? that would be a more fundamental goal.

[guest39538]

I think I already prioritised the order in my previous post.  Let us look at the finer details of the list in order.

1) A universal alliance and laws

Number one is for simplicity,  if we ever discovered intelligent life out there, our prime directive will be firstly to establish a communications ''link''.  We would establish communication by getting over the possible language barrier and befriend our new found friends.  We would then have to establish certain ''laws'' for our alliance.  Pretty standard procedure I would imagine.


2) To share knowledge

What goes around comes around, to share knowledge and technology stops unequal dictatorship.  The power is divided equally rather than a specific continent for example.


3)For all to be equal

Fairness is next to kindness, the green eyed monster cannot exist if things are equal.  Inequality is a form of legalised slavery , the poor picking up the scraps .


4) Universal maintenance standards

Speaks for itself really

What makes point#1 more important than point#2? etc.

What is the goal of the alliance and laws? We need to distinct the goal and the method to achieve the goal (may be we can call it intermediate goal).
Why do we have to share knowledge? why do we have to stop unequal dictatorship? why do we have to be fair? equal? why must we have maintenance standard? that would be a more fundamental goal.

The order is specific for first contact and the advancement of ''our'' friendship.  The point of an alliance is because , WAR , what is it good for? absolutely nothing . To share knowledge would not be a problem because ''we'' would never be in war against each other.  Two friends going fishing sharing tips.  Why have inequality?  Time is equal
As for number 4, care about our environment and it will care for us, simple logic.
 

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The order is specific for first contact and the advancement of ''our'' friendship.  The point of an alliance is because , WAR , what is it good for? absolutely nothing . To share knowledge would not be a problem because ''we'' would never be in war against each other.  Two friends going fishing sharing tips.  Why have inequality?  Time is equal
As for number 4, care about our environment and it will care for us, simple logic.
 

good side of war : reduce population that consume limited resources. Have you seen Thanos?

[Bored chemist]

You seem to have mistaken this site for TheNakedWafflers.com
Were you planning to add something that looks a bit like science later or something?

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

If this universal goal exist, then all organisms will try to achieve it. Conscious organisms will make plans to achieve it, because the plan can increase the probability to achieve target.
Plans work based on assumption that law of causality applies, otherwise, if everything happens at random, then there would be no point in making plans.

Another basic assumption which is necessary to get to a universal goal is that there is an objective reality. Otherwise there would be no cooperation among units of a system that tries to achieve that goal.
Perhaps some of you think that those two basic assumptions are so obvious as not to seem worth stating, but without them, I don't think we can go forward discussing this topic any further.
This reminds me of a Bertrand Russell quote

The point of philosophy is to start with something so simple as not to seem worth stating, and to end with something so paradoxical that no one will believe it.
Bertrand Russell
(https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/bertrand_russell_107179)

We'll see if those basic assumptions will lead us to a paradox.

restating those basic assumptions in fewer words:
1. There is universe.
2. There are universal laws.

As for causality, it is necessary to assume that time exists. This entails that there are changes in things in the universe. Some are fast, some are slow.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

You seem to have mistaken this site for TheNakedWafflers.com
Were you planning to add something that looks a bit like science later or something?

This is more about philosophy, which is the precursor to science.
At some point I'll explain why we need to do science in the first place, on philosophical ground. So bear with me.

Spoiler: show

Some say that goal of science is to find the truth. But when that goal is achieved, then what?
Why knowing the truth (as well as other things such as love, fairness, joy, happiness, peace) is preferable? That is the topic we are going to discuss here.

Science is needed to build good models of the universe which are necessary to make good decisions and plans. It will reduce our chance to make false assumptions which lead to unexpected results. Here I'm going to show how I came to that assertions.

[guest39538]

The order is specific for first contact and the advancement of ''our'' friendship.  The point of an alliance is because , WAR , what is it good for? absolutely nothing . To share knowledge would not be a problem because ''we'' would never be in war against each other.  Two friends going fishing sharing tips.  Why have inequality?  Time is equal
As for number 4, care about our environment and it will care for us, simple logic.
 

good side of war : reduce population that consume limited resources. Have you seen Thanos?

You said universal utopia ,therefore over population would move to an empty planet. No need to kill them off .

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The order is specific for first contact and the advancement of ''our'' friendship.  The point of an alliance is because , WAR , what is it good for? absolutely nothing . To share knowledge would not be a problem because ''we'' would never be in war against each other.  Two friends going fishing sharing tips.  Why have inequality?  Time is equal
As for number 4, care about our environment and it will care for us, simple logic.
 

good side of war : reduce population that consume limited resources. Have you seen Thanos?

You said universal utopia ,therefore over population would move to an empty planet. No need to kill them off .

I just pointed out a counter example to your assertion. War is inevitable when a population doesn't manage their use of available resource to the point of overusage. Except, we can generate new resources at higher rate than population growth. Even if war doesn't happen, some of the population will die anyway due to lack of resources.
Btw, what good is fishing for?

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Here I'd like to build a strong argument on an ultimate goal. That's why I first need to put fundamental basic assumptions with as strong as possible supports. From there, I'll carefully add more arguments on top of it, layer by layer until nothing can be logically added anymore, which means I would have arrived to the ultimate goal.
Then I'll use that result to justify (or dismiss) preferences or intermediate goals as mentioned in previous posts, based on their projected effects they have to the achievement of ultimate goal.