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quote: There is no denying that religion isn't crap
quote:but there is no denying that a religion that is fully supported and belived in that has a flawless set of rules would create the closest thing to a utopia that will ever work
quote:My evidence is that religions evolve out of every major culture
quote:Religion , not philosophy, seems archaic now because humanity is not so foolish to belive in something as whimsical as the easter bunny
quote:An omnipotent figure (or a philosophy) sets a strict code of moral values for a civilization
quote:Originally posted by Crazy117The other topic for disscussing this degraded into berating astrologers. There is no denying that religion isn't crap.My evidence is that religions evovle out of every major culture. I am not a man of faith but I think that it is (or at least was) for society to include a religion. An omnipotent figure (or a philosophy) sets a strict code of moral values for a civilization. Religion , not philosophy, seems archaic now because humanity is not so foolish to belive in something as whimsical as the easter bunny, but there is no denying that a religion that is fully supported and belived in that has a flawless set of rules would create the closest thing to a utopia that will ever work.
quote:Originally posted by DoctorBeaverHowever, 1 point that neither of us has so-far mentioned is fear. It is the driving force behind most religious dogma - fear of not attaining paradise, of burning in hell for all eternity etc.
quote:Originally posted by DoctorBeaverThat comes back to my point about the difference between spirituality & religion. Fear is not a part of spirituality, it is merely inherent in the dogma of some religions. It has proven to be, though, a very effective tool for ensuring compliance.I must, however, take exception to your point about it being a tool created by those already involved in religion. It is a cornerstone of Christianity & Islam, not a later addition to an original concept. In the New Testament & The Qu'ran it is stated that if you don't do this or that, you'll be in trouble when you die. Those scripts are the very basis of the religions concerned.
quote:But, I think it would be wrong to regard Judaism as a more spiritual religion that Christianity
quote:In this context, the social pressures the Jewish community could bring to bear upon its members would not have applied to these isolated Christians, and so the Christians had to use a mechanism of punishment that could be threatened beyond the reach of the close community. The punishment of a far reaching God, a God that could punish those beyond the reach of their community, served this purpose well.
quote:Originally posted by DoctorBeaverquote:But, I think it would be wrong to regard Judaism as a more spiritual religion that ChristianityI didn't imply that. At least I hope I didn't.
quote:I see the difference between spirituality & religion as the former being a private affair whereas the latter is the organisation of a belief system with dogma.
quote:But if you look at the socio-political & religious situation in the middle east when Christianity was born, it was most certainly a revolutionary way of thinking & bore very little resemblance to anything that existed there at the time. Yes, it drew on the Jewish tradition, but went against it at the same time - especially if you consider the more esoteric aspects of Judaism.
quote: quote:In this context, the social pressures the Jewish community could bring to bear upon its members would not have applied to these isolated Christians, and so the Christians had to use a mechanism of punishment that could be threatened beyond the reach of the close community. The punishment of a far reaching God, a God that could punish those beyond the reach of their community, served this purpose well.That is true to an extent, but only after the fact. That fear of punishment beyond the grave began with Christ. That means it has been an intrinsic part of the religion right from its outset, not added later as a means of control (although it has served that purpose admirably)
quote:if you believe the distinction is one of highly spiritual religions having less need for heaven and hell
quote:I would contend that Christianity was not born in the Middle East.Christianity was born within the Roman Empire. Christ was a Jew, he was not a Christian. Paul was a Christian, and probably the first Christian. Paul, who never personally knew Jesus in life, was born in Asia Minor (OK, that might be regarded as the Middle East, but not Palestine), but he was a citizen of Rome (unlike Peter).
quote:What we can say is that even in his own time, although Jesus was a Jew, he was also a maverick, an outsider (to some, even a terrorist), and as such, one can imagine that he too could find value in applying the notion of damnation in the hereafter to those upon whom he had little control within the here and now. By contrast, Herod could damn those who displeased him within this life, so he had no need to threaten them in the life hereafter.
quote:Originally posted by DoctorBeaver quote:but there is no denying that a religion that is fully supported and belived in that has a flawless set of rules would create the closest thing to a utopia that will ever workI can deny it - at least, I can deny it the way you've worded it; and I think the more extreme forms of Islam & Christianity, for instance, lend weight to my denial. History is littered with examples of people enduring almost anything if they believe that by so-doing they are guaranteed a place in Heaven."Fully-supported & believed in" - let's take the example of female circumcision. Among its adherents, it is fully supported & believed in. It is also 1 of the most barbaric practices imaginable. I certainly would not class it as part of a Utopian lifestyle.Puritan Christians persecuted even their own followers to an horrific extent.You must also take into account the fact it would be next to impossible to get universal support & belief. People are different from each other and so have different needs & wants. A single religion could never cater for everyone; hence the numerous schisms in Christianity, the Sunni-Shi'ite split in Islam etc."One size fits all" has been tried in various fields - religion, education, politics - and has almost invariably been found wanting. That is due solely to people having different wants & needs.
quote:Originally posted by Crazy117notice I said flawless. My point is that following a religion of virtue, whether you belive in the faith or not, would ultimmatley lead somebody to do no purposful wrong.
quote:http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/aug97/865380242.Me.r.htmlThis guy can explain why we sneeze when we look at the sun... But can he explain why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?
quote:notice I said flawless. My point is that following a religion of virtue, whether you belive in the faith or not, would ultimmatley lead somebody to do no purposful wrong.
quote:My point is that following a religion of virtue, whether you belive in the faith or not, would ultimmatley lead somebody to do no purposful wrong
quote:Do all kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?
quote:Originally posted by another_someonequote:Originally posted by Crazy117notice I said flawless. My point is that following a religion of virtue, whether you belive in the faith or not, would ultimmatley lead somebody to do no purposful wrong.Not sure if an explanation of a childish preference for cinnamon toast crunch is available or not, but even if such an explanation is available, I'm sure there will always be many other things that remain unexplained. The fact that some things today remain unexplained, why does that prove the truth of religion? Religion provides effective barriers to knowledge, so one can invoke religion as a means of declaring something to be inherently inexplicable, but does the fact that we do not yet have an explanation for something inherently make it inexplicable? The history of science is littered with things that could not be explained in bygone eras, but are totally explicable today.
quote:Originally posted by another_someonequote:Originally posted by Crazy117This presumes commonly agreed and provable notions of virtue and wrong.
quote:Originally posted by Crazy117
quote:Originally posted by Crazy117I am not saying that the church orginization (as it is the church that stated these things, not the religion itself) has always had the most scientifically apt perspective of the world. I am merely saying that a person that follwed a perfect religion's teachings completely, he would do nothing wrong intentionally. (assuming everybody else in the world followed that religion).
quote: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." does not mean that they person going to hell abided to the rules of the faith of christianity. In fact, it is quite the opposite. I don't know if you knew this already,but Christianity teaches that if you follow the religion you will be spared from hell (at least all Christian faiths that I have heard of).
quote:Postscript: I mentioned Cinnamon toast crunch because I know from personal experience that some kids like it because I am twelve years old. I didn't say that all kids liked it, but at least more than one I am assuming.