Naked Science Forum
Life Sciences => Physiology & Medicine => Topic started by: Titanscape on 22/08/2009 17:35:50
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This documentary is by the work of doctors, psychologists and physiologists and mentions the brain in terms of physics and relativity, the human quantum computation, being in two places at once. I'd like it if scientists would watch this and comment on and explain these concepts, post links...
This documentary is a study of the brain and mind in experiences under doctors observation, of people who died on the operating table.
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What's to explain?
I only watched the 1st 10 minute clip and it didn't say anything that cannot be explained by simply accepting that the brain, when deprived of oxygen, does not work properly and produces odd effects.
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The things they mention are interesting. The patients brains are inactive, dead, not merely starved of oxygen.
They see operating instruments and hear things, they later describe.
A woman blind from birth reports seeing for the first time, seeing things as the others who NDE.
Their is mention of microscopic parts of neurones, quantum computation, generating the mind, as one theory. The psychologist/physiologist describes what you bored chemist think, brains starved of oxygen, about part three I think, but this is insufficient an explanation as the documentary goes on. Lights and joy and peace, coming from endorphins or something...
But there is more to it. Because people see their operations, see instruments, procedures, tool boxes, hear procedurses... that mean they are conscious, and observing from above, while brain dead. Makes the point about mind and brain, and questions what generates consciousness.
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The fact that they can tell us about it afterwards might raise the question about whether they were actually dead, as well as the fact that after being starved of oxygen for a period of time, the brain can often plant what could be called 'false memories' of event sor things that did not actually happen, or they did not witness. The power of suggestion is a strange thing.
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Re "The patients brains are inactive, dead, not merely starved of oxygen."
How can you tell exactly when someone is having this experience?
Doesn't it make more sense to say that the experience must have happened before or after the brain was shut down?
As I said, I don't see anything here that really needs an answer.
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How could these false memories, or hallucinations/delusions arise, the distortion of time... that lead to factual difficult to explain observations of things at that time? And not far off from the event dreams instead?
The look or a saw for example, "like an electric tooth brush". Or again he comes in unconscious, but later recognises a nurse and tells her what he saw her doing? He was correct.
Why not LSD like, or Mescaline like hallucinations? Why facts?
Also, if they are for example from a cardiologist experience, a science field professional with others around the world, with up to date technology, how could they get it wrong with regards to brain death and no pulse over measured times?
Dead or not, how can they see things with their eyes taped shut, lying on their back?
And just one Dr documented 150 cases.
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Wanabe pilots who undergo centrifuge testing can experience "the tunnel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-LOC#Effects_of_g-forces) with white light",
because their brain is temporarily deprived of blood/oxygen at high G ...
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[:)]
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RD your point is explained and is rendered insufficient in the course of the documentary. With regards to nerve cells in the retina and oxygen starvation. The view held by the psychologist/physiologist.
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Just trying to point out that "the tunnel" is not a channel from this life to "the afterlife" as is often suggested,
it purely is physiological, as are the vivid dreams which can accompany hypoxia...
Effects of g-forces
As g-force increases, or the longer it is sustained, the victim may suffer progressively:
* Brownout- a loss of color vision
* Tunnel vision - loss of peripheral vision, retaining only the center vision
* Blackout a complete loss of vision but retaining consciousness.
* G-LOC where consciousness is lost.
Recovery is usually prompt following removal of g-force but a period of several seconds of disorientation may occur.
Brief but vivid dreams have been reported to follow G-LOC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-LOC#Effects_of_g-forces
BTW euphoria is also a symptom of hypoxia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoxia_%28medical%29#Symptoms), (again physiological explanation for the feelings of "love" described).
So "the tunnel", the visions of dead relatives, and luvved-up feelings are all explicable without invoking the supernatural.
BTW #2 some patients may have their eyes taped, but their other senses may still be able to function, e.g. their ears are not plugged.
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The instruments used in the situations described in the documentary may not have been sensitive enough to detect extremely low level brain activity. To my knowledge, very few vigorous experiments of NDE/OBE patients have been performed. This, together with the strong possibility that the memories may be of events that occurred before and after the NDE/OBE, explain the phenomenon.
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Re: original question
Some individuals slowly lose their mind years prior to death ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7579352.stm
Is this possible with the afterlife "hypothesis": can your psyche "pass over to the other side" in installments ?.
Belief in the afterlife is not a harmless delusion ... http://www.google.co.uk (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&ei=RPiRSuG4LuWrjAfG5Yn8DQ&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=kills+family+then+self&spell=1)
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People going blind or born blind, see, after they leave their damaged brain, I suppose dementia's cloud is gone.
As for the killing, the person doing it was not apparently religiously motivated.
Indeed, belief that a clean heart, and justice, and love, means you will see God, and injustice, and unclean deeds mean you go to the world below, should deter bad behaviour.
Only centuries into the Christian church did things really begin to go wrong with politicisation... burnings at the stake, killing the Christ all over again.
I did read that the Jewish Christians in the first century fought to retake Jerusalem, but lost and it was burned down and evacuated by the Romans. So all that is left of the temple is the wailing wall.
Stefan, some people documented arrived unconscious, did not know what procedures they were to hear, and not know what equipment they were to see. But described it. Sights and sounds, the saw. The box it was in... she was a singer. She'd never seen it before. Eyes taped shut and unconscious before entering surgery.
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I think BC, RD & Co have given perfectly reasonable answers here.
As to the question "What happens to the brain and mind at death?", the brain dies along with everything else. End of story.
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If the message is justice, cleaness and love, along with humility and a sense of honour. And it goes wrong, then, what can't?
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BC
This sounds like a great example of where Double Blind Testing would be applicable!
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Please tell me what double blind testing is?
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Double blind testing is when the subject of the experiment and the experimental staff is deprived of some information concerning the experiment, so that they can not distort the outcome of the study not consciously nor unconsciously.
For example you want to test the effectiveness of a new pain killer to ease the pain of people after surgery. You recruit the subjects and tell them that in this study you will compare the effectiveness of a new pain killer with an older one. Then you randomly assign the subjects to either an experimental group (they get the new pain killer) or a controll group (they get the old pain killer, that has proven effects). The hospital staff administers the painkiller as needed by the subjects.
The key is that not the patient, nor the hospital staff knows which group is the individual patients are in, so the staff doesn't know if the painkiller that they are giving is the old or the new experimental one.
The reason for this is that if the experimental staff would have that information, they would maybe be more concerned about the patients getting the experimental medicine, watching over them more, giving them bigger doses or other types of medicine, responding to there requests or painkiller needs in a different way, this way distorting the outcome of the study as it will contain "artifact".
This could have an effect on the patient too, seeing the more concern towards himself by the medical staff could cause him to respond more rapidly or intensively to little pain too, requiring more medicine. etc.
I'm not exactly sure what could be a double blind setting in a near death experience study. The most important thing would be that the medical staff and the patient who are interviewed shouldn't have any contact after the experience/operation etc. So that the patient can't get any information about the procedure this way.
It is important that this is not just to ensure that the results can't be altered deliberately, but to avoid unconscious false evidence too.
The problem with these kinds of experiences is that they are so rare (or reported so rarely) that it's almost impossible to devise an experimental design for them, you can only do retrspective study by finding and interviewing the patients. This way you can't controll factors like communication with the staff.
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Under NDE in youtube, there are testimonies of people who do not see a spot of light. They see pitch black, and others horrible places. Not joy but intense fear. Like Dr Whitaker. Assuming our brain physiology and chemistry is much alike, then brain death, or going through or recovery from Oxygen starvation should be similar in all cases, light and joy. But it is not.
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But we know that the brain produces all sorts of weird and wonderful (and unreal) things - dreams, hallicinations. No one argues that these are evidence of an external spiritual reality, but they're visions produced by the brain, just like vsions produced during NDEs are.
The brain will no doubt be in a highly stressed state during death - brain chemistry is almost certainly altered.
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The cases with discerning surgery observations without Hell or Heaven are the most debatable issues. Just that I think everyone's eyes and larger brain should be the same in the same conditions. Especially the nervously simple eyes and white spot of light.
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This is what happens to the brain at death:
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/10/06/near-death-brain.html
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"Assuming our brain physiology and chemistry is much alike, then brain death, or going through or recovery from Oxygen starvation should be similar in all cases, light and joy. But it is not."
Then the assumption is faulty.
This is also indicated by, (as a trivial example) the fact that some people react differently to alcohol than others.
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Years ago Timothy Leary experimented with LSD on groups of people, willing volunteers. He found that most people "tripping" who held some form of religious belief were more likely to have some form of religious experiences. It was not as common in those with no belief and that's what I think is happening here. I have "been there, done it" so to speak and it seems about right to me. Most of what has been found out about NDE's seems to suggest its the religious that hope and want it to be true to prop up their faith. Most sites about NDE's seem to be religious based and try and use NDE's to prove its a real God based phenomena.
I like the idea that the neurons spike as they discharge on death.
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I agree with stefan and that mad man over there :)
It will fall out differently depending on your expectations/imprints/experiences.
Which makes it all true in a way.
If you're a Christian there will be heaven or hell waiting.
For us thickheaded northerners our beloved Valhalla is waiving.
And for you blessed Muslims those houris are waiting.
Ah well, it describes some of the observable phenomena of our brains electrochemical discharges in death, but it does not explain consciousness. And as for out of body experiences when unconscious I've seen enough reports of it to think that there might be something to it, but what it is? Don't know.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/23/science/23cnd-body.html
But then again, there are also testimonies to people describing others talking and colors and things/objects inside rooms where they've been taken while in a coma, so?
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A statistical analysis of more than 100 NDE subjects revealed that prior religious belief and prior knowledge of NDEs did not have an appreciable effect on the likelihood of having an NDE
Of course, this only scratches the surface of all the possible explanations for an NDE. NDEs seem to offer some hope that death is not necessarily something to be feared, nor is it the end of consciousness. Even science has a difficult time grasping death -- the medical community has struggled with specific definitions for clinical death, organ death and brain death for decades. For every aspect of an NDE, there is at least one scientific explanation for it. And for every scientific explanation, there seem to be five NDE cases that defy it.
The above quotes are from a previous link called, How It Works, Near Death Experiences.
I would be interested in finding and have searched for Muslim... NDEs I know they have them but never heard of any where people meet Zeus or Garnish...
The issue is not limited to consciousness but also perception in sight and hearing after death.
Dr Whitaker by now should have received treatment and overcome his NDE delusion, or he is sane and is educated and competent to assess the fear and darkness he perceived. Regarding my previous point about similarities that should be, and the endorphins and other chemistry goes on, it should be like morphine, but some find it fearful and painful, when do morphine or endorphins cause pain? Surely for some they should.
Endorphins are endogenous opioid polypeptide compounds. They are produced by the pituitary gland and the hypothalamus in vertebrates during strenuous exercise,[1] excitement, pain and orgasm,[2][3] and they resemble the opiates in their abilities to produce analgesia and a sense of well-being. Endorphins have also been shown to be released in profound relaxation in a float tank.[4] Endorphins work as "natural pain relievers."
The above Endorphins from Wikipedia.
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This neuroscientist explains his near death experience. The formation of complex thoughts and memories while seemingly brain dead. And the document refers to seventies USAF experiments, as referred to above that prove HYPOXY is not the explanation, too different from near death experiences.
Their light is different from the tunnel many see.
They have something more like dreams.
They do not meet loved ones or beings...
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From one of my favourite resources comes an article, that finds high G forces can cause out of body experiences. It is a trigger.
http://near-death.com/experiences/triggers06.html
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It stops worrying about really stupid stuff.
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As soon as I saw the title of this post I assumed it would be full of answers about DMT being released to "shut the body down" etc.. It seems I as wrong :-X