[james oliver (OP)]

It's easy to identify cells - electron microscopes can do that. The smaller elements that are within cells (proteins, amino acids and the atoms that come together to make them), require more advanced technology, which still, in 2012 isn't entirely accurate.
  Mass spectrometry is still not an exacting medium, and that again only allows for study and analysis in vitro.
As for other industries that have user agreements, sure, there are plenty, but "user" in electronics et al doesn't mean if you swallow a computer chip. Drugs can and do do damaging stuff to your body - including killing you - and they do these things each and everyday.
  Right now someone is having a bad reaction to some drug. And right now again, and now, and now again... Each second someone in america is having a bad reaction to non smart drugs that were poorly thought out, rushed on the market to satisfy profit needs, and as long as there is a disclaimer - it's all good.
  I am not really just singling out pharmacology. They profit the most by a large margin, but they are not alone.
Sick pets should be treated. They should be treated by people who know how to treat, and drug companies don't know how to treat.
  Most humans don't know how to treat - in part because we don't know how to "treat" our bodies each and every day so we aren't in need of medications. If you are comfortable living inside that ever increasing viscous cycle that is spiraling downwards, then by all means have at it - and take your pet to hell in a hand-basket as well.
  The point of my original post and the point of my book, is on the matter of how far we have gone away from taking care of our bodies in the simplest of manners, which includes simple diet and water, which embraces all manner of microbials in our garden foods (as opposed to rinsing our fruits and vegetables and cooking them).
  We are the most unhealthy species by a long shot and the reason is directly related to our diets which more and more includes less nutrients - it is nutrients that is the key to health and to life. Biologists are always puzzled and amazed at how the other species survive and thrive. From alligators and sharks (who have been here for 400 million years), to the many species in the amazon jungle and all tropical rain forests etc, scientists continue to marvel at the resilient, resistant, and super strong immune systems of the many other species that share this planet.
  And to that, biologists around the world immerse themselves in dense jungles for weeks on end trying to get "clues" as to how those many species do what they do so amazingly and how we can learn and or mimic them in any way so as to helps humans from a medical standpoint. This is the same with studying alligators and sharks. We are even trying to graft alligator tissue with human tissue in that we may also "not get cancer" (direct quote).
  It’s actually quite simple: The one thing all the other species have in common is that they are “Nutrivores”; that’s my way of saying that whether they survive on meats or plants or the sun, they don’t mess with their nutrients, in any way, shape or form.
  Diet, which to me means only nutrients, is so fundamentally and critically essential to health. And we humans so brutally mess with each and every nutrient that we can - cooking can be at the top of that "destroy" list. All species are either sick or healthy due to nutrients. This is so, for better or worse, depending on the lack of or amount of vital nutrients provided to our bodies.
 The only other "species" which experience the health issues we humans have, including weight problems, is our pets, starting with cats and dogs, who eat the same processed cooked crap that we humans eat.
 

[Geezer]

This thread is getting a bit "preachy". Please refer to the Acceptable Use Policy which you'll find in the Guest Book. In particular -

The site is not for evangelising your own pet theory.  It is perfectly acceptable that you should post your own theory up for discussion, but if all you want to do is promote your own idea and are not inviting critical debate about it, then that will not be acceptable.

[james oliver (OP)]

I was just thinking the same thing as I wrote that last post; we are getting away from my original post.
Anytime one "promotes" their own idea it automatically and quite naturally invites critical debate. I was not preaching in as much as i was answering a question, one, and two, defending my viewpoint.
  My original post had nothing to do with evangelizing. As a result of no chemists on this forum having any specific answer to the early question, inevitably it evolved to a back and forth opinionated debate. I even mentioned that if no one had did these types of experiments that it was fine, and I would seek the answers elsewhere:"If anyone on this forum has done these specific tests, that would be great, and I/we would look forward to your input."
  I was happy to stay on the subject of bond strengths and what can breakdown an amino acid. All the other stuff, I have had to many debates about already in the past 3 years - ad nausea - almost to a point where I am getting bored repeating myself after hearing pretty much the same things on several forums (most of my answers at some point are cut and paste from my manuscript - which I don't care to promote either - not yet anyhoo).
  If anyone cares to get back to the discussion of how any of the bonds of an amino acid can be broken (outside of the human body) using everyday chemicals, Dimethyl sulfoxide (C2H6OS) for instance, that would be great and for me, way less boring (as in new stuff).

[Bored chemist]

"It's easy to identify cells - electron microscopes can do that."
Nobody said it wasn't
"The smaller elements that are within cells (proteins, amino acids and the atoms that come together to make them), require more advanced technology, which still, in 2012 isn't entirely accurate."
protein sequencing (which tells you the proteins, amino acids and atoms present) has been around since 1950
http://actachemscand.org/pdf/acta_vol_04_p0283-0293.pdf
"Mass spectrometry is still not an exacting medium," spoken like someone who has never used one.
They are, in fact, so precise and exact that there are proposals to redefine the kilogram based on mas spec results rather than a lump of metal in Sevres.
"and that again only allows for study and analysis in vitro."
Sort of.
Actually there's now a lot of work looking at stuff taken out of living systems and put through a mass spec.

"As for other industries that have user agreements, sure, there are plenty, but "user" in electronics et al doesn't mean if you swallow a computer chip. Drugs can and do do damaging stuff to your body - including killing you - and they do these things each and everyday."
It seems to have escaped your notice that people take drugs because they are already unwell.
Sure, the drugs have side effects, but those are generally less of an issue than whatever the illness was in the first place.

" Right now someone is having a bad reaction to some drug. And right now again, and now, and now again... Each second someone in america is having a bad reaction to non smart drugs that were poorly thought out, rushed on the market to satisfy profit needs, and as long as there is a disclaimer - it's all good."
they are doing that right now because, in many cases, if they wait they die.
It's not as if rushing a drug to he market really helps a lot. There will still be sick people when you get there.
There is, of course, a tension between testing and getting a drug into use.
Do you understand that it's never going to be possible to guarantee that a particular drug will be safe for a particular person?
Since it never will work that way why are you grumbling about the fact that we haven't reached perfection yet?

"Sick pets should be treated. They should be treated by people who know how to treat, and drug companies don't know how to treat."
You might have missed this but actually most drug companies have a better idea how their products will act in animals than they do in humans.
Guess what the testing is done on.


"The point of my original post and the point of my book, is on the matter of how far we have gone away from taking care of our bodies in the simplest of manners, which includes simple diet and water, which embraces all manner of microbials in our garden foods (as opposed to rinsing our fruits and vegetables and cooking them)."
Are you seriously considering not cooking all your food?
Have a look at how often the word "raw" turns up here.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002618/#adam_001652.disease.causes
I'm afraid I can't be bothered going through the rest of your post pointing out the other errors.

If you actually have any evidence rather than, for example, nonsense about mass spectrometry, I think it would help if you cited it.

[james oliver (OP)]

BC - with all due respect, you are not the one to engage in this discussion. I don't want and can't use "links". If u have never done these specific tests yourself - i will be content moving on. because u are bored suggests that u are not on the leading edge of what is actually going on in labs beyond what you read - and anyone can read them as well.
  As i mentioned, this month i will be meeting up with some of the leading folk in the field of proteomics - one person in particular is very well up on all the latest advances in that her lab is one of the leading facilities (in NY) in cancer research and development. She herself has has been quite celebrated for her work on the p53 protein and other areas of drug treatment and gene study.
 When she speaks to me she doesn't say "Oliver you need to learn chemistry in order for us to discuss anything". I never get that from people in real life - it seems only people on forums (some) need to distinguish themselves and belittle others - as if we are stupid and have no clues about anything chemistry related.
  It is I who can no longer be bothered with itemizing your comments and showing you just how off base some of them are. If you believe drug science is perfect and wonderful and headed in the right direction (for me that would be the direction where there are less side effects...) then that is your right. It is also your right to defend chemists and chemistry. It is my right as a citizen and human to take anyone to task and hold them accountable - we do this with politicians, bankers, wall street, educators, architects and city planners and building builders, accountants, baby sitters and nannies, lawyers, doctors, scientists, economists, the military leaders and all other captains of industry. In the city we have letter grades for restaurants - the owners don't like it but it is vital to keep them on their toes and deliver quality products and quality service.
  Chemists and chemistry are not exclusive from this scrutiny - it seems so - and science takes advantage because many don't know science so we can be told whatever and we have to except it. Well wonderfully so, many more people each day are not excepting drugs that "may' work yet will definitely cause some mal effects.
   You can be delusional about this perhaps and sing the praises of Pfizer et al, but we don't have to dance to the music.
  Moderator, sorry for the preachyness, but again, I wanted to discuss Dimethyl sulfoxide etc. I am fully willing and capable of saving my preaching and ranting and raving for my book which most books are wont to do, but it is clearly the ego of others as well as my self that keeps dragging us back into speculative dribble  and conjecture- which is not the worst thing, and a lot of it will be included in my book (how others feel...)
  I came to this forum not seeking speculation or conjecture rather specific answers of specific circumstances with specific criteria under certain and specific conditions - i got none of that.
  I'll have some of that this month and perhaps i'll report back to this forum just exactly what does happen to amino acids when exposed to certain criteria that we use in the kitchen and elsewhere prior to ingesting them. Maybe not BC, but someone of the hundreds viewing this thread might be interested in what we've learned - I know I have thousands already waiting for the release of the book (which I'm not promoting - that would require a title which i have not given to this or any forum)

[Geezer]

I know I have thousands already waiting for the release of the book (which I'm not promoting - that would require a title which i have not given to this or any forum)

Better start clacking the keys then.

I'm locking this thread.