[wolfekeeper]

Yup, that... and he's not correct.

The reason I know this fact is because I was pricing up house batteries and solar panels, turns out that even the average cost of solar power over the life of the system is about 8p, and the lowest tariff I could find on grid electricity to charge a battery was BELOW that of the gas. If you're on that tariff, running space heaters or immersion heaters at night is actually cheaper than using gas right now. Maybe in the long run, natural gas will come down again, but so may grid electricity, and my point about heat pumps remains.

And I haven't even touched on the environmental credentials.

The model I have of the battery/solar panel system is giving double digit ROI, and seems to be a goer.

[Petrochemicals]

Yup, that... and he's not correct.

The reason I know this fact is because I was pricing up house batteries and solar panels, turns out that even the average cost of solar power over the life of the system is about 8p, and the lowest tariff I could find on grid electricity to charge a battery was BELOW that of the gas. If you're on that tariff, running space heaters or immersion heaters at night is actually cheaper than using gas right now. Maybe in the long run, natural gas will come down again, but so may grid electricity, and my point about heat pumps remains.

And I haven't even touched on the environmental credentials.

The model I have of the battery/solar panel system is giving double digit ROI, and seems to be a goer.

Oh no the electricity company says that electricity is cheaper at night.

Except no, that's bullshit, because electric is cheaper in Norway with hydro electric than Qatar with gas.

[Bored chemist]

Except no, that's bullshit, because electric is cheaper in Norway with hydro electric than Qatar with gas.

Do you think I can use a very long extension lead, or do you realise that what you said is irrelevant?

Here in the UK a heat pump may can easily be cheaper (it largely depends on installation costs. If I could tap into the underground river culverted under the street where I live, I'd be on a winner).

[Bored chemist]

Oh no the electricity company says that electricity is cheaper at night.

That's because... it is cheaper at night.
Did you not realise that?

[wolfekeeper]

Except no, that's bullshit, because electric is cheaper in Norway with hydro electric than Qatar with gas.

Do you think I can use a very long extension lead, or do you realise that what you said is irrelevant?

There already is a long extension lead, and it's 450 miles long (!):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Link

But yeah, the price of electricity varies depending on usage and availability, either average or instantaneous and a whole bunch of other factors.

In general, the idea that electricity MUST be more expensive than natural gas per kWh is flawed, although it's historically true, the price of natural gas is determined by the world market and isn't necessarily causally related to the price of electricity, because some of the ways of producing electricity, including hydroelectricity, wind and solar, don't necessarily require much natural gas or other fossil fuels to produce them.

[Petrochemicals]

Except no, that's bullshit, because electric is cheaper in Norway with hydro electric than Qatar with gas.

Do you think I can use a very long extension lead, or do you realise that what you said is irrelevant?

There already is a long extension lead, and it's 450 miles long (!):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Link

But yeah, the price of electricity varies depending on usage and availability, either average or instantaneous and a whole bunch of other factors.

In general, the idea that electricity MUST be more expensive than natural gas per kWh is flawed, although it's historically true, the price of natural gas is determined by the world market and isn't necessarily causally related to the price of electricity, because some of the ways of producing electricity, including hydroelectricity, wind and solar, don't necessarily require much natural gas or other fossil fuels to produce them.

You're just lying.  You could steal the electric making it free.

[alancalverd]

It all comes down to quantity. As I write, 60% of UK electricity is derived from gas and 12% from nuclear. The retail price from all suppliers is linked to the current price of gas, and all the undersea cables can only contribute about 5%, plus or minus (we supply them from time to time).

As demand for electricity increases with the adoption of electric cars, short-term economics will favor building more gas-powered generators because they offer a quicker return on capital than any other and the retail price is of no concern to the suppliers as long as it is profitable, which is inevitable because they are under no obligation to supply at a loss. Longer term economics favors offshore wind, at around 3 times the capital cost per unit installed capacity and no obligation to supply at all.

[wolfekeeper]

Nah. The grid is scaled for peakload, but the typical load is much less, and baseload less still. There's plenty of capacity, nobody is likely to build a lot more natural gas plants. Electric cars charge when electricity is cheap, which right now, is around the daily baseload. In future with more solar they will charge more around midday, depending on the tariffs available.

[alancalverd]

Current UK grid demand as I write is 40 GW. Maximum capacity is 55GW, it isn't particularly cold right now, and there are very few electric cars (less than 1 in 20) and almost no electric trucks and buses. Pity the sun has gone down and there is no wind.

[Bored chemist]

Current UK grid demand as I write is 40 GW. Maximum capacity is 55GW, it isn't particularly cold right now, and there are very few electric cars (less than 1 in 20) and almost no electric trucks and buses. Pity the sun has gone down and there is no wind.

I see you have, once again, forgotten about this sort of thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechargeable_battery

[wolfekeeper]

Here's the output of the model I made with three times the wind capacity and extra solar and 2 TWh of hydrogen salt cavern storage:

[Petrochemicals]

Here is the info straght from the horses mouth

Based on your £20/day figure that equates to roughly 50kWh, which at this time of year is not an unreasonable amount

https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/massive-electricity-cost

https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/our-ashp-is-costing-24-a-day-to-run

https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/forums/renewable-heating-air-source-heap-pumps-ashps/whats-your-current-daily-damage

[wolfekeeper]

The incompetence in those threads is high. One general idea is to use off-peak electricity to mostly warm up your house. The overnight cost of electricity is a third, so heat the main living areas well above the normal living temperature, and only run the heat pump during the day to stop it falling too much- using the house as a thermal battery. They're doing more like the opposite, heating the house to a lower temperature overnight and then trying to warm it up higher during the day on the expensive electricity! Madness!

[Petrochemicals]

The incompetence in those threads is high. One general idea is to use off-peak electricity to mostly warm up your house. The overnight cost of electricity is a third, so heat the main living areas well above the normal living temperature, and only run the heat pump during the day to stop it falling too much- using the house as a thermal battery. They're doing more like the opposite, heating the house to a lower temperature overnight and then trying to warm it up higher during the day on the expensive electricity! Madness!

Screenshot_20221210_104905.jpg (144.99 kB . 1784x438 - viewed 437 times)

you're flat out lying

[wolfekeeper]

The point is, they should be running the night rate flat out, even if it means going well above 18C. The heat will leak away slightly faster at a higher temperature, but the cost of heating is a third of the day rate. Depending on the insulation they should set the night rate thermostat to 25C or higher, and even run fan heaters on the cheap rate to get the temperature up. Any electricity used on the day rate means they messed up.

[Petrochemicals]

I'm missing something? Well, the original claim

Unless you have hydroelectric electricity gas is always far cheaper.

Actually, no.

Right now gas is about 8-10p/kWh, whereas night rate electricity is 8-19 p/kWh depending on the tariff.

When used in conjunction with heat pumps, the electricity delivers far more heat.

Screenshot_20221210_104905.jpg (144.99 kB . 1784x438 - viewed 425 times)

The point is, they should be running the night rate flat out, even if it means going well above 18C. The heat will leak away slightly faster at a higher temperature, but the cost of heating is a third of the day rate. Depending on the insulation they should set the night rate thermostat to 25C or higher, and even run fan heaters on the cheap rate to get the temperature up. Any electricity used on the day rate means they messed up.

WTF