Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: profound on 21/05/2020 09:41:36
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What happens to water if you shine very intense light into water from a strobe flash unit.
The 1 liter of water will be in a highly reflective container 1 liter container and the light from a high intensity strobe light will flash from a xenon tube will flash into the ordinary water through an aperture at the rate of 1 flash per second for 30 minutes.
I tried to google this but all the information seems to have been removed or irrelevant items come up.
I want to know if these pulses of light will do anything to the water.
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They will warm it up .
I doubt that anyone ever bothered to post that information on the web.
Why do you imagine that the information seems to have been removed
?
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https://yourwatermatters.com/water-as-consciousness/
Even more fascinating are increasing new revelations that water is the medium of consciousness.
You could just annoy the hell out of it.
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Visible light won't do anything but heat the water. However there is an oddity.
We like to use water to calibrate radiotherapy machines, since most of the human body is water and most of the damage done to the target cells is caused by free radicals generated in the aqueous cytoplasm by the ionising radiation. So several national standards laboratories built water calorimeters as the primary measurement standard. Obviously if you only have degassed distilled H2O in the tank, all the absorbed dose will resolve as heat because there are no other chemical endpoints.
We also built graphite calorimeters, using reactor-grade or pyrolytic graphite. Having one tenth of the specific heat capacity of water, they are a lot more sensitive and easier to stabilise, and despite the mess at Windscale, graphite does not suffer Wigner deformation under 1 - 10 MeV photon irradiation.
In my day, everyone was mystified by a consistent 3% discrepancy between the doses measured in graphite and water. That may not sound a lot, but (a) it's on the limit of acceptability for everyday clinical use, and therefore an embarrassment for a standards laboratory and (b) we knew all the contributory parameters (essentially, electrical power input, time, and temperature rise) to better than 0.01%. It seemed to me that water was undergoing some kind of persistent polymerisation.
I never found a more plausible answer. Does anyone out there know what was going on?
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Visible light won't do anything but heat the water. However there is an oddity.
We like to use water to calibrate radiotherapy machines, since most of the human body is water and most of the damage done to the target cells is caused by free radicals generated in the aqueous cytoplasm by the ionising radiation. So several national standards laboratories built water calorimeters as the primary measurement standard. Obviously if you only have degassed distilled H2O in the tank, all the absorbed dose will resolve as heat because there are no other chemical endpoints.
We also built graphite calorimeters, using reactor-grade or pyrolytic graphite. Having one tenth of the specific heat capacity of water, they are a lot more sensitive and easier to stabilise, and despite the mess at Windscale, graphite does not suffer Wigner deformation under 1 - 10 MeV photon irradiation.
In my day, everyone was mystified by a consistent 3% discrepancy between the doses measured in graphite and water. That may not sound a lot, but (a) it's on the limit of acceptability for everyday clinical use, and therefore an embarrassment for a standards laboratory and (b) we knew all the contributory parameters (essentially, electrical power input, time, and temperature rise) to better than 0.01%. It seemed to me that water was undergoing some kind of persistent polymerisation.
I never found a more plausible answer. Does anyone out there know what was going on?
I read once it can dissociate water molecules and generate ions in water and can help to sterilize water if a bottle is left in direct sunlight but the article seem to have been removed by internet censors.
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Sunlight is a reasonable sterilant if there's nothing better. Many charities like Water Aid and Save the Children promote the use of Coke bottles and sunshine to debug drinking water. No sign of "suppression" that I can see, but a clean well is more convenient.
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Does anyone out there know what was going on?
Well...
We also built graphite calorimeters, using reactor-grade or pyrolytic graphite. Having one tenth of the specific heat capacity of water
In the very real sense that 0.7 is a tenth of 4.2.
It's implausible that water does something weird, but only you noticed it. There must be some other , plausible, sort of error.
Are you talking bolometers?
Anyway, to get back to the OP's question.
If you mean "light" in the sense of visible light, essentially nothing happens.
Visible light won't do anything but heat the water.
Not really, no.
Water is practically transparent to the whole visible spectrum. So that light will pass through the water with no effect
In fact it's transparent to wavelengths down to about 190nM (Possibly further, but that's where the spectrometer I used gave up)
And the emission spectrum of xenon tails off at about 200 nM.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Spectral-distribution-of-flash-light-from-xenon-flash-lamp_fig1_290211701
So there's not much absorbtion of the UV from a xenon lamp by water.
So what you are left with is the IR.
That's going to warm the water up.
The dissociation of water into solvated H+ and OH- ions rises with temperature, so you will get more of them.
The fact that you can (rather inefficiently) heat water using a xenon flash lamp is unlikely to get much attention. So there's hardly going to be much information about it on line.
You can get water cooled xenon flash lamps- which kind of implies that the water just gets warm.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/c/4026766547
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You can get water cooled xenon flash lamps- which kind of implies that the water just gets warm.
It gets warm not by absorbing light radiation. Instead, it absorbs heat through conduction and convection.
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It's implausible that water does something weird, but only you noticed it. There must be some other , plausible, sort of error.
The heat defect was first reported at the US National Bureau of Standards and replicated at the Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt, Germany. Similar results have been reported from Russia and Canada. I left NPL before the UK water calorimeter was commissioned, but I couldn't see anything wrong with the work we did at NBS.
All that was 35 years ago and I've lost touch with the guys involved (I guess half of us are dead!). If it wasn't implausible it wouldn't be interesting!
Anyway, back to xenon strobes. The OP put his water inside a highly reflective container then added some photons. If they didn't end up heating the water, where did the energy go? Whilst liquid water has a neat minimum absorbance in the blue/green range, the minimum value is not zero and increases by a factor of 100 towards the visible red limit. In the visible range, the xenon spectrum is almost the inverse of the water absorbance, but there are some huge peaks in the infrared, where water absorbs very strongly.
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If they didn't end up heating the water, where did the energy go?
Back into heating the xenon plasma, where they raise its temperature a bit.
Much the same as if you surround a tungsten lamp with "perfect" mirrors.
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He has surrounded the water, not the lamp, with mirrors, and shone the light
through an aperture
Very much like the standard black body - a hollow sphere with a tiny hole in it.
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Back
through an aperture
into heating the xenon plasma
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Very much like the standard black body
Thing about black bodies- they are also good emitters (as well as absorbers).
And the converse is also true, good emitters like- lets say, just as an example... a xenon plasma... are good absorbers.
Much better, across the UV and visible spectra than say... water.
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the article seem to have been removed by internet censors.
Why assume that "Internet censors" are responsible for its removal?
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The Bilderberg Group plan to solidify all the world's water by exposing it to xenon radiation and ship blocks of it to their secret headquarters on the far side of the moon. The formula for re-liquefying polywater is encoded in the builder's invoice for the Great Pyramid, which is buried in the Vatican at a location encoded in the arrangement of Stonehenge. So in future you will have to pay for rain. Why else do you think they have fenced off Stonehenge and told everyone to stay at home? Tony Blair is a lizard. Donald Trump is an idiot. Huawei ("who are we?") owns the internet.
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the article seem to have been removed by internet censors.
Why assume that "Internet censors" are responsible for its removal?
Why not just assume he didn't look very hard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_water_disinfection
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the article seem to have been removed by internet censors.
Why assume that "Internet censors" are responsible for its removal?
Because the article mentioned that high intensity light caused ions to be created and made the water alkaline when tested.
Alkaline water has health benefits and hence internet censors removed it under the pretext of fake news.
Everything that goes against big pharma is being removed or vilified or labelled as fake news.
I think it would be great if Big Pharma products were labeled as scams and snake oil.
Level the playing field.
Did you know that 510000 people died of cancer in USA in 2018 and at least 88% got chemo
but still ended up dead !!!
Chemo is snake oil but correlation is not causation you scream...
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Alkaline water
is a contradiction in terms.
Water is neutral.
We explained here why it is impossible for the light to have any effect apart from warming teh water up a bit, yet you go off on a flight of fancy about alkaline water.
Why would you do that?
Chemo bought my mother another 5 years of life.
It does even better in treating childhood cancers (because, obviously, kids have higher life expectancies).
Stop posting antiscience nonsense on a science web site; you just look silly.
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Alkaline water
is a contradiction in terms.
Water is neutral.
Chemo bought my mother another 5 years of life.
Their is no proof that what you stated above is true and no proof that Chemo "bought my mother another 5 years of life".
Remember correlation is not proof of causation.
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Their is no proof that what you stated above is true ".
Yes there is.
It's called science.
I have done the experiments.
Why not just withdraw your assertion that I'm a liar, and look less of a fool?
no proof that Chemo "bought my mother another 5 years of life".
Well, she got out of bed and went round the world on holiday.
What alternative explanation do you offer for her recovery, and that of millions of others?
What do you suggest is the reason why people with cancer now live longer than they used to?
Remember correlation is not proof of causation.
Remember that nobody said it was.
Remember not to say silly things.
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Alkaline water has health benefits and hence internet censors removed it under the pretext of fake news.
Everything that goes against big pharma is being removed or vilified or labelled as fake news.
Please give evidence to support this conspiracy theory.
Their is no proof that what you stated above is true
Do you even know what pH is?
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Their is no proof that what you stated above is true ".
Yes there is.
It's called science.
I have done the experiments.
Why not just withdraw your assertion that I'm a liar, and look less of a fool?
no proof that Chemo "bought my mother another 5 years of life".
Well, she got out of bed and went round the world on holiday.
What alternative explanation do you offer for her recovery, and that of millions of others?
What do you suggest is the reason why people with cancer now live longer than they used to?
Remember correlation is not proof of causation.
Remember that nobody said it was.
Remember not to say silly things.
Look it's really WRONG to use your mother to win arguments and morally dubious.
In addition it cannot be verified by pear reviewed publications.
There is no proof people live longer as the number dying from cancer is still over 50000 in USA alone
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Alkaline water has health benefits and hence internet censors removed it under the pretext of fake news.
Everything that goes against big pharma is being removed or vilified or labelled as fake news.
Please give evidence to support this conspiracy theory.
Their is no proof that what you stated above is true
Do you even know what pH is?
i cant because empirical evidence is not accepted and trials cost many millions
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i cant because empirical evidence is not accepted
What empirical evidence are you talking about?
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Look it's really WRONG to use your mother to win arguments and morally dubious.
"Morally dubious"- says the man who accused me of lying.
She actually did recover and + go round the world on holiday.
And the point is that you can't say I was told that by the "Powers that be", and I can use that clinical datum, without needing to go to discuss confidentiality with an ethics committee.
It's the least morally, or otherwise dubious datum we have.
But you don't like it so you accuse me of making stuff up.
That's pretty low, isn't it?
Alkaline water has health benefits and hence internet censors removed it under the pretext of fake news.
Everything that goes against big pharma is being removed or vilified or labelled as fake news.
Please give evidence to support this conspiracy theory.
Their is no proof that what you stated above is true
Do you even know what pH is?
i cant because empirical evidence is not accepted and trials cost many millions
You are the one not accepting it, aren't you? You don't accept the specific case of my mother.
Water can't be alkaline- by definition; it's neutral.
There is no proof people live longer as the number dying from cancer is still over 50000 in USA alone
Why do you not see that there isn't a link there.
Everyon dies.
Too many of them die of cancer.
But what therapy does is incresase the interval between diagnosis (by some specific criterion) and death.
trials cost many millions
We aren't asking you to fund one, just look at the data from them.
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Look it's really WRONG to use your mother to win arguments and morally dubious.
"Morally dubious"- says the man who accused me of lying.
She actually did recover and + go round the world on holiday.
And the point is that you can't say I was told that by the "Powers that be", and I can use that clinical datum, without needing to go to discuss confidentiality with an ethics committee.
It's the least morally, or otherwise dubious datum we have.
But you don't like it so you accuse me of making stuff up.
That's pretty low, isn't it?
Alkaline water has health benefits and hence internet censors removed it under the pretext of fake news.
Everything that goes against big pharma is being removed or vilified or labelled as fake news.
Please give evidence to support this conspiracy theory.
Their is no proof that what you stated above is true
Do you even know what pH is?
i cant because empirical evidence is not accepted and trials cost many millions
You are the one not accepting it, aren't you? You don't accept the specific case of my mother.
Water can't be alkaline- by definition; it's neutral.
There is no proof people live longer as the number dying from cancer is still over 50000 in USA alone
Why do you not see that there isn't a link there.
Everyon dies.
Too many of them die of cancer.
But what therapy does is incresase the interval between diagnosis (by some specific criterion) and death.
trials cost many millions
We aren't asking you to fund one, just look at the data from them.
it is morally wrong to bring your mother into it.
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it is morally wrong to bring your mother into it.
Why?
Who is harmed?
On the other hand, it's wrong for you to falsely accuse me of dishonesty.
Water still isn't alkaline.
Water still absorbs very little visible light.
In the scenario you cited the outcome would be that the water would warm up.
The data is available if you want to look for it, but, it seems you would rather try to impugn my morality.
In another thread you said you did your own research.
Do you mean you found some page on the web that said what you wanted to hear?
Because, if you actually did research, you would know that water is transparent (that doesn't take much "research") and you would know that it can't be alkaline.
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it is morally wrong to bring your mother into it.
Why?
Who is harmed?
On the other hand, it's wrong for you to falsely accuse me of dishonesty.
Water still isn't alkaline.
Water still absorbs very little visible light.
In the scenario you cited the outcome would be that the water would warm up.
The data is available if you want to look for it, but, it seems you would rather try to impugn my morality.
In another thread you said you did your own research.
Do you mean you found some page on the web that said what you wanted to hear?
Because, if you actually did research, you would know that water is transparent (that doesn't take much "research") and you would know that it can't be alkaline.
Alkaline water has a higher pH level than regular drinking water. Because of this, some advocates of alkaline water believe it can neutralize the acid in your body. Normal drinking water generally has a neutral pH of 7. Alkaline water typically has a pH of 8 or 9.
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Do you understand that, if it has a pH of 9, it isn't water?
Water is neutral.
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Alkaline water has a higher pH level than regular drinking water. Because of this, some advocates of alkaline water believe it can neutralize the acid in your body. Normal drinking water generally has a neutral pH of 7. Alkaline water typically has a pH of 8 or 9.
The only way that water can be alkaline is if it has other substances dissolved in it.
In principle, I suppose an intense radiation source could cause chemical changes in water. Maybe you could get some hydrogen peroxide out of it with the evolution of hydrogen gas. Or maybe some of the small amounts of nitrogen and oxygen dissolved in it from the air could lead to the formation of ammonia, ozone, nitric acid or other such compounds. I don't know how likely that is, though. Bored Chemist would probably have a much better idea about it than me.
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the article mentioned that high intensity light caused ions to be created and made the water alkaline when tested.
Well, it's possible to make water alkaline by adding an alkali. For example, water that percolates through limestone will dissolve a little (About 15 milligrams per litre) calcium carbonate and become slightly alkaline.
Now, setting aside the idea that 15 parts per million of calcium carbonate in the water may or may not be good for you, lets see what that article apparently said.
It didn't say you can make it alkaline by adding an alkali.
It said it could make water alkaline by shining a light on it.
But,as discussed at pointless length, the only outcome of that would be to warm it up a bit.
It doesn't add alkali. It doesn't stop it being neutral.
So, the article is clearly wrong- there just isn't a mechanism for it to be right.
Now we know that whoever wrote the article says things that aren't true, we can consider the other claim made; the one about alkaline water being good for you.
Is there a credible mechanism for a few dozen milligrams of dissolved rock making a difference in teh body which wouldn't be outweighed by the hundreds of grams of food you eat?
OK, so, we know teh source is unreliable- they talk nonsense about light making water alkaline- and we know there's no mechanism for it to work.
And it's not as if Profound has actually done the large scale double blind tests that would be needed to uncover any effect.
So we know that Profound is basing his judgement on some other "authority figure". And we also know that he thinks the rejection of hydroxychloroquine as a miracle cure for covid is a conspiracy.
But we also know that one of the advocates for HCQ is
(1) and idiot who thinks that people should try injecting disinfectant and
(2) has financial connections with the company that sells HCQ
So, it's fair to say that Profound isn't on the same side as either science or common sense, and he doesn't spot a real
conspiracy when there is one.
He's a very useful too for big pharma though.
He keeps advocating giving them money for pills we don't need.
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https://www.laboratoryequipment.com/565010-Splitting-Water-with-UV-is-Now-at-Almost-100-Quantum-Efficiency/
Not had a chance to read it yet, but thought it might be relevant.
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https://www.laboratoryequipment.com/565010-Splitting-Water-with-UV-is-Now-at-Almost-100-Quantum-Efficiency/
Not had a chance to read it yet, but thought it might be relevant.
Did you read the first few lines?
"Scientists in Japan successfully split water into hydrogen and oxygen using light and meticulously designed catalysts, "
Guess what happens without the catalysts (i.e. in the case in point).
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Here is a possible scenario I can think of. Mineral/drinking water can have up to 250 ppm of total dissolved solid, wich may contain salts of chloride or carbonate. The intense light may break the chemical bond and release gaseous Cl2 or CO2, leaving alkaline ions dissolved in water.