Naked Science Forum

Non Life Sciences => Technology => Topic started by: acsinuk on 29/09/2020 10:29:52

Title: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: acsinuk on 29/09/2020 10:29:52
Motorcycle News latest edition states that Honda,  Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki are jointly developing new battery packs for bikes but where is the British version being developed??  England used to lead the world in technical development and specification.
 Which university will take up this challenge????   We need to specify which type of motor AC or DC brushed or unbrushed is most reliable, then find the most economic variable speed control and finally specify the battery size, shape and connector. [ which Japan is about to take the lead in.]
I am convinced that the government would help universities fund such a research project which could spin off into new manufacturing opportunities and employment for thousands of people.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: evan_au on 29/09/2020 11:47:51
Quote from: acsinuk
Honda,  Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki ... the British version
Please name 4 British motorcycle brands that are this well known, worldwide...

I can see Triumph, Norton & BSA, but they are not in the same category.

Quote
specify the battery size, shape and connector.
The capacity will differ greatly between a beginners bike and a superbike.
- The size will be as small as possible for the available battery chemistry

The output voltage will be a tradeoff between output power and the cost of the electronics.

Aesthetics and aerodynamics is important in motorbike design. These will dictate the battery shape for an individual bike.
- And having a unique aesthetic dictates that the shape of every bike battery will be different from every other

The only hope for standardization might be in the connector. But even then, a beginners bike won't want to pay for the high-capacity connector of a superbike.
- Having a common connector for a charging station would be a real win. But the standardisation will probably involve software - the charging station will communicate with the bike to determine the best charging voltage and current.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/09/2020 11:53:39
I am convinced that the government would help universities fund such a research project which could spin off into new manufacturing opportunities and employment for thousands of people.
This government, and others of the same colour over the last 4 decades that I know of have steadfastly said that "near market" research should be paid for by the industry.
Since we barely have an automotive industry in the Uk- again, largely due to government policy- I don't see it happening.
Aesthetics and aerodynamics is important in motorbike design. These will dictate the battery shape for an individual bike.
So, Harley Davidsons could presumably just use a stack of lead/ acid car batteries. in keeping with their design ethic of "big square and heavy".
:-)
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 29/09/2020 22:59:35
And this really isn't a task for a university. The technology is all known. What is required is design, standardisation, compliance with roadworthiness requirements, component sourcing, assembly jigs, manufacturing quality control, packaging, despatch , advertising, sales, service, dealer stocking, racing team management....all the stuff that Triumph, Norton and BSA used to do rather well in the bad old days when manufacturers could borrow money at a sensible rate, investors were prepared to wait more than five minutes for a profit,  and before the factories and test tracks were sold to speculative house builders.

The British economy is based on house sales and currency speculation, not manufacturing. Where have you been since 1979?   

However since Britain leads the world in loud non-music, I am sure there is a market for an add-on that makes an electric bike sound like a teenager's dream.  I (and the Metropolitan Police) always liked the Vincent Black Shadow - lots of very sophisticated decibels. You can't make a statement with a silent motorbike, which is why Her Majesty's Fuzz gave up on the watercooled bikes.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: mikeduke1290 on 30/09/2020 09:55:07
Rear motors are best for riders wanting or needing more power, or those looking to incorporate a throttle. There are also some new electric road bikes with small 250W rear hub motors that can be very stealthy with an integrated battery for a clean, traditional appearance.

Hope this information is helpful to you
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: acsinuk on 01/10/2020 11:30:44
Mike, most of the scooters are using a no brushes 3 phase motor with a powerful permanent magnet rotor.  A variable speed electronic controller drives the field forwards but is this more reliable or economical than a series DC brushed rotor motor?
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 01/10/2020 11:43:19
Yes.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/10/2020 17:07:26
Both.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: lucky33 on 04/10/2020 10:54:36
The problem with electric motors is that they need to be disposed of later. Therefore, gasoline creates a problem in the atmosphere, and electric motors create a disposal problem.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2020 11:25:40
The problem with electric motors is that they need to be disposed of later. Therefore, gasoline creates a problem in the atmosphere, and electric motors create a disposal problem.
Almost all the components in an electric motor are valuable and can be recycled.
It's much less of a problem
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 04/10/2020 13:08:42
True. But the recycling process requires energy and produces chemical waste. Likewise for lithium batteries (or indeed any other type of electrochemical storage), which tend to die earlier than the motors. On a whole-life basis, lead-acid or nickel-iron batteries are more economical and probably less polluting  but can't match the energy density or spectacular selfdestruction of lithium cells.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2020 13:28:00
But the recycling process requires energy and produces chemical waste
If someone is scrapping an electric motor, they are almost certainly buying a replacement.
So the question is, does this create less waste than making things from" scratch- including all the waste from the mine etc?
But we can do the other comparison.
I will set up a business recycling scrapped electric motors and you can set one up recycling carbon dioxide to make new petrol.
The big issues with what Lucky posted are that, like motors, engines wear out and have to be scrapped.
And the electric vehicle needs power from somewhere.
Until we get renewables sorted out, that means moving the pollution somewhere else. In the middle of a city that might be worthwhile.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: acsinuk on 04/10/2020 13:31:14
 Lithium ion are so much more lighter that we need to use them on vehicles although for static power backup batteries other types could be more economical.
Read an interesting MAGNAX article on Axial verses radial permanent magnet motors which shows conclusively that axial flux flow machines are smaller, slimmer and lighter than old radial flux AC machines or very old DC motors.
So 6 or 12 pole inner stator axial flux motors with neodymium magnet outside rotors on a 3 bearing rotor keyed drive shaft are the future drive motors we need to use.
Batteries at present Lithium ions are lightest to deal with from a stored energy per kilogram weight point of view. 
All we need is a university to develop a British variety that suits all our needs , to power either a city runabout or a performance motorcycle.  Same motor/battery technology!!
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 04/10/2020 13:35:39
My vote is still for hydrogen. Whilst electric vehicles are a Good Thing, in a city the problem of kerbside recharging or 5 minute charging at a garage, has not really been solved.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2020 13:36:06
All we need is a university to develop a British variety
Why?
Why does it need to be a University?
Why does it need to be British?
Why does it need to be different i.e. "non-standard"?
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 04/10/2020 13:37:13
All we need is a university to develop a British variety that suits all our needs
You have clearly never awarded a development contract to a university.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: pensador on 04/10/2020 15:15:19
My vote is still for hydrogen. Whilst electric vehicles are a Good Thing, in a city the problem of kerbside recharging or 5 minute charging at a garage, has not really been solved.

Yes Hydrogen is good option if you want to maintain the same specifications for range and power. But most people do not need the range, or a 4x4 to run the kids to school.

The problem is specification. Most commuters fill up once a week. People dropping the kids of at school or going back wards and forwards to the shops dont normally need to fill up weekly. Most vehicles spend a large amount of time parked, when they can easily be charged if the facilities were available.

AC Electric motors can be controlled extremely efficiently by modern control methods, If its acceleration you want, electric has currently got the records https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36606500
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 04/10/2020 16:56:57
Most vehicles spend a large amount of time parked, when they can easily be charged if the facilities were available.

My italics. There are now 35,000,000 cars in the UK. If their electric replacements are to be as useable as the present vehicles, we will need to install about 20,000,000 standardised kerbside charging points and 15GW of continuously available electricity. I don't see an incompetent government or its bankrupt successor being able to make this happen, nor do I smell much enthusiasm from the privatised electricity companies.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: pensador on 04/10/2020 17:17:30
Most vehicles spend a large amount of time parked, when they can easily be charged if the facilities were available.

My italics. There are now 35,000,000 cars in the UK. If their electric replacements are to be as useable as the present vehicles, we will need to install about 20,000,000 standardised kerbside charging points and 15GW of continuously available electricity. I don't see an incompetent government or its bankrupt successor being able to make this happen, nor do I smell much enthusiasm from the privatised electricity companies.

By useable it comes down to range and ability to recharge. Not everyone needs the the same specification of vehicle

Cars are a large capital expenditure for most people. A small investment in a battery charger at home, would be the obvious solution for most. Most people are not sales reps filling up their cars 2 or 3 times a week. The point being most people do not need a vehicle with a 500 mile range, those people could quite easily put their cars on charge when they returned home, after a short commute. It might even help with power station loading, with smart chargers the power stations could choose when to charge a vehicle within a set time period.

Denmark is a market leader in this technology a quick google flagged up this https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/5k8zvv8g70q5-en.pdf?expires=1601828883&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=579B7D01CB6521C6F5827147B70F6A7B Smart Grids might be the way to go.

As an aside for the OP GEC Alsthom developed the mag lev train technology used in Japan. It was never implemented in the UK because of politics and privatisation of the rail network
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2020 17:41:41

My italics. There are now 35,000,000 cars in the UK. If their electric replacements are to be as useable as the present vehicles, we will need to install about 20,000,000 standardised kerbside charging points and 15GW of continuously available electricity.

According to this
https://www.racfoundation.org/data/volume-petrol-diesel-consumed-uk-over-time-by-year
we burn about 50 billion litres of petrol and diesel per year (and it has been remarkably consistent over the last 30 years)
Each litre provides about 35MJ of energy.
1.75 x 10^18 J per year
That's about 55GW

Even allowing that electricity might be significantly more efficient, I think it will be more than 15GW.

Most people do not recognise the power transfer rate of a trip to the petrol station.
A pump delivering a fairly modest 1 litre per second will be transferring the equivalent of 30 or 40 MW.

It's even worse across teh pond.
The US burns about 550 billion litres of petrol and 180 billion litres of diesel.
About 800 GW
I gather from wiki that
"In 2018 the total US consumption of electricity was 4,222.5 terawatt-hours (TWh)."
4.2 X 10^15 watt hours per year
8760 hours per year.
About 400GW

It looks like the entire US power grid does not handle enough power to recharge all the cars.

The solution to these problems is not better engines or better batteries, but fewer journeys.

Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 04/10/2020 21:44:02
I assumed that we would continue to use diesel for long-distance buses, trucks, tractors and site machinery - I just took the figures for private cars. Apparently the hydrogen public transport project in Orkney is doing well - even faster refuelling than diesel, and Orkney is not short of wind.

Burning hydrogen in a recommissioned coal or gas power station will run the trains reliably: you just need new boiler jets.

It might even help with power station loading, with smart chargers the power stations could choose when to charge a vehicle within a set time period.

And there's the rub. The whole point of a car is that it allows you to go where you want, when you want - like a horse or even your own legs, but faster. Daily commuting is quickly going out of fashion for most people, but if you work from home you need to be able to make occasional journeys when business demands, not when the wind blows (remember we won't have any coal or gas power in the foreseeable future, and there is no money to build nukes at the required rate.

Quote
Cars are a large capital expenditure for most people. A small investment in a battery charger at home, would be the obvious solution for most.
That doesn't make sense at all! If I've spent £30k or more on a new electric car, I'm going to spend another £500 on a fast charge point so I can go to the pub after dinner instead of having to wait until morning just to go to work. We do not have the infrastructure to support 20,000,000 fast chargers, and never will.   
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/10/2020 22:20:50
you need to be able to make occasional journeys when business demands, not when the wind blows
That would be relevant if the plan was to use really long extension cables to run cars.
But, if you have a battery the clever thing is, you can charge it at night- unless you work the night shift, in which case you charge it during the day.

Most vehicles are stationary much more than they are mobile.
The problems are to do with sockets more than the vagaries of the weather.


Burning hydrogen in a recommissioned coal or gas power station will run the trains reliably: you just need new boiler jets.
Great news- just as soon as we find the first hydrogen mine...
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 05/10/2020 11:55:22
But, if you have a battery the clever thing is, you can charge it at night- unless you work the night shift, in which case you charge it during the day.
Or if you live in a flat or a house with no off-street parking. Like most city dwellers.


Quote
Quote
Quote from: alancalverd on Yesterday at 21:44:02
Burning hydrogen in a recommissioned coal or gas power station will run the trains reliably: you just need new boiler jets.
Great news- just as soon as we find the first hydrogen mine...

How about the North Sea? Lots of hydrogen, and plenty of electricity to extract it when the wind blows.




Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/10/2020 13:04:07
Or if you live in a flat or a house with no off-street parking. Like most city dwellers.

Good to know that we agree
The problems are to do with sockets
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: acsinuk on 05/10/2020 17:11:33
I agree with Alan that long range heavy transport will best be served by petrol/diesel engines until the oil  runs out.But city runabouts need to be small economical electric no pollution cars with a little 20 kg battery that a single person can swap for another quickly.
The electric motor must be light and just powerful enough to get around the city.  Possibly, equipmake or some similar startup could gang up with a nearby university to develop this unit quickly.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/10/2020 17:30:12
With sodium sulphur batteries you can  batteries you can store about 0.7 MJ/ Kg
20 Kg gives you 14 MJ (for many of us, it would also give you a knackered back)
Equivalent to 0.4 litres of petrol.
If you had an engine with roughly the energy use of a 50cc moped, which gets 70 MPG you would be talking about a range of 10 miles.
That's a bit minimalist. Might just be OK, depending on the efficiency (it's not hard to do better than a moped).
Sodium sulphur batteries are (I think) the best energy density rechargeables at the moment, but rather impractical- they run very hot.
Maybe Li ion will be that good.
It doesn't seem to need great innovation.


Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 05/10/2020 18:50:12
You can get 70 mpg from a small diesel car - much warmer than a moped.

I can't fathom acsin's obsession with universities. What you need is a factory - all the technology for electric bikes, motorbikes, city cars and executive cars is already around. Apart from the means of recharging them, which will require the smack of firm government and a lot of money - two things the UK does not have.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: pensador on 06/10/2020 16:17:22
I assumed that we would continue to use diesel for long-distance buses, trucks, tractors and site machinery - I just took the figures for private cars. Apparently the hydrogen public transport project in Orkney is doing well - even faster refuelling than diesel, and Orkney is not short of wind.

Burning hydrogen in a recommissioned coal or gas power station will run the trains reliably: you just need new boiler jets.

It might even help with power station loading, with smart chargers the power stations could choose when to charge a vehicle within a set time period.

And there's the rub. The whole point of a car is that it allows you to go where you want, when you want - like a horse or even your own legs, but faster. Daily commuting is quickly going out of fashion for most people, but if you work from home you need to be able to make occasional journeys when business demands, not when the wind blows (remember we won't have any coal or gas power in the foreseeable future, and there is no money to build nukes at the required rate.

Quote
Cars are a large capital expenditure for most people. A small investment in a battery charger at home, would be the obvious solution for most.
That doesn't make sense at all! If I've spent £30k or more on a new electric car, I'm going to spend another £500 on a fast charge point so I can go to the pub after dinner instead of having to wait until morning just to go to work. We do not have the infrastructure to support 20,000,000 fast chargers, and never will.

Again it is requirements and specification. Not everyone needs a fast charge unit. Why not have your missis drive you to the pub in her car, then you can drink. A slow re-charge overnight will then suffice.

ABB have some charger offerings. Much of what has already been addressed on the thread is discussed in this link from intel https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/solution-briefs/transportation-abb-terra-smart-connect-brief.pdf

Pub landlords might have an excellent investment opportunity to attract their regulars with a fast charge unit, it could revitalize pub trade in the UK, same goes for cafes and restaurants.
I agree with Alan that long range heavy transport will best be served by petrol/diesel engines until the oil  runs out.But city runabouts need to be small economical electric no pollution cars with a little 20 kg battery that a single person can swap for another quickly.
The electric motor must be light and just powerful enough to get around the city.  Possibly, equipmake or some similar startup could gang up with a nearby university to develop this unit quickly.
Electric motors are a lot lighter already than the batteries required to power them. For Electric propulsion the problem is the energy storage. Electric Batteries are expensive, and perhaps not the only solution.

Super Capacitors could provide peak current demands in conjunction with a smaller battery or as was suggested earlier on on this thread using hydrogen fuel cells perhaps. https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/how-do-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-work#:~:text=Fuel%20cell%20vehicles%20use%20hydrogen,electricity%2C%20which%20runs%20a%20motor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell

Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 06/10/2020 16:34:49
Not everyone needs a fast charge unit.
until they do.

Imagine I just made it home from work with 5 miles reserve, then a kid fell over and gashed his head, but must wait at least 2 hours before I can take him to hospital (6 miles away). Quicker to walk. In the bad old days I would have spent 5 minutes filling up the ghastly smelly dangerous diesel car once it got below 50 miles reserve.

Must remind children to plan their accidents just like I plan doing absolutely everything, to coincide with the availability of electricity.

Or maybe the hospital has installed 2000 medium-fast-charge points at 10 kW each so most people can get home after a 2 hour stay.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 06/10/2020 16:39:49
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_internal_combustion_engine_vehicle  shows the way forward.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 06/10/2020 17:43:47
Not everyone needs a fast charge unit.
until they do.

Imagine I just made it home from work with 5 miles reserve, then a kid fell over and gashed his head, but must wait at least 2 hours before I can take him to hospital (6 miles away). Quicker to walk. In the bad old days I would have spent 5 minutes filling up the ghastly smelly dangerous diesel car once it got below 50 miles reserve.

Must remind children to plan their accidents just like I plan doing absolutely everything, to coincide with the availability of electricity.

Or maybe the hospital has installed 2000 medium-fast-charge points at 10 kW each so most people can get home after a 2 hour stay.

999
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 06/10/2020 20:01:52
Only for lifethreatening emergencies, and maybe in an hour or two when they have charged the ambulance battery after that long retrieve from the motorway. Of course in the bad old days they used to use diesel ambulances, but the fumes killed millions of people for every life they saved, apparently.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 06/10/2020 20:18:58
Of course in the bad old days they used to use diesel ambulances,
They still could.
It's unrealistic to imagine that there will be a "one size fits all" solution.

I'm reminded of the Dom Cummings story where he was so unpopular that nobody within 200 miles would help him.
Wouldn't your neighbours help out?
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 07/10/2020 00:26:06
They have all just got back from work too. There is no private road transport between 6 and 10 pm because we all have expensive, useless electric cars and they can't all be charged at once because that would have involved the privatised electricity industry actually investing in infrastructure.

The government policy of prohibiting the sale of internal combustion cars is of course a cunning plan to increase the profits of the privatised diesel-engined bus companies. One size may not fit all, so the rest will have to go shoeless. No problem, kid, the next bus to the hospital is on Thursday. Maybe. 

Come to think of it, the New Dawn has already arrived.  A friend was told to get a COVID test. Turned out that, as a non-essential worker, the nearest she could drive to was 150 miles away, but there was a walk-in about 10 miles distant with the requirement that "You must walk or cycle to the test station." Just what she needs at 91 years old and not feeling well.  So the tiny number of COVID positive tests is because only the fittest can get tested.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: pensador on 07/10/2020 10:32:30
They have all just got back from work too. There is no private road transport between 6 and 10 pm because we all have expensive, useless electric cars and they can't all be charged at once because that would have involved the privatised electricity industry actually investing in infrastructure.

The government policy of prohibiting the sale of internal combustion cars is of course a cunning plan to increase the profits of the privatised diesel-engined bus companies. One size may not fit all, so the rest will have to go shoeless. No problem, kid, the next bus to the hospital is on Thursday. Maybe. 

Come to think of it, the New Dawn has already arrived.  A friend was told to get a COVID test. Turned out that, as a non-essential worker, the nearest she could drive to was 150 miles away, but there was a walk-in about 10 miles distant with the requirement that "You must walk or cycle to the test station." Just what she needs at 91 years old and not feeling well.  So the tiny number of COVID positive tests is because only the fittest can get tested.

A more flexible arrangement in work hours, and more working from home, might go some way to answering your first paragraph.

A government conspiracy/plan to reduce the amount of vehicles on the road in favour of public transport :). 

Umm! Covid-19 or a mutation will if the politicians do nothing, take out a huge chunk of the human population, thus reducing the need for all the internal combustion engines, sorting out global warming at the same time and the politicians dont need to do a thing.

Specifications > Different countries with different resources dont all need one solution controlled by multinationals.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 07/10/2020 12:06:56
Specifications > Different countries with different resources dont all need one solution controlled by multinationals.
Tell that to the EU!

More to the point, EVs will be manufactured by various companies in various countries to various specifications to suit various customers. The joy of diesel cars (or even gasoline nowadays) is you can refuel them all from the same source. Imagine if you could only put Volvo petrol in a Volvo, and it wouldn't work in a Ford - there would be an outcry from Volvo owners because Waitrose supermarkets don't sell petrol!  We already have a problem with incompatible charging sockets and power specifications, even in those rare cases where the forecourt charger actually works.

Government-led standardisation will reproduce the 47 different kinds of incompatible domestic mains plugs currently listed by the International Electrotechnical Commission. Industry-led standardisation will be a bit closer to the USB socket on your computer - apart from the Applecart, of course.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/10/2020 13:03:19
Tell that to the EU!
My best guess is that Pensador can tell the EU stuff because he has an MEP.

The UK decided not to do that, but to just accept whatever France and Germany want. They called it "taking back control".


The reason why you can use petrol in your car across Europe (and the world) is because of standardisation brought about by organisations like the EU.

http://consiliari.co.uk/gasoline_en_228/

Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/10/2020 13:07:23
Government-led standardisation will reproduce the 47 different kinds of incompatible domestic mains plugs currently listed by the International Electrotechnical Commission.
I don't want it to be possible to accidentally plug my toaster into a 440V 3 phase socket.
I want those plugs to be incompatible.
I also don't see how you can expect something as varied as " electrical mains connector" to be standardised. For a start, you would need a time machine to go back to a point where the different commercial suppliers had not all introduced their own (incompatible) systems.


Industry-led standardisation will be a bit closer to the USB socket on your computer
Or Edison and Westinghouse.

On the other hand...
https://xkcd.com/927/

Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 07/10/2020 14:52:20
Two very interesting posts. BC.  I can't work out whether you are in favor of government-driven standardisation or not!

In any case, statutory standards and in particular EU Directives are nowadays mandated by and for the benefit of industry via ISO and IEC, set up to avoid repeating the Edison/Westinghouse nonsense.

You can't plug your toaster into a 440V 3φ socket without an adaptor (in a TPN supply you get 230V from each phase to neutral), but to do so would be as absurd as putting diesel into a petrol car (not possible! the filler on modern "lead-free petrol" cars won't accept a diesel spout, but sadly the converse is entirely feasible and much more damaging!).

But the fact remains that until EV manufacturers can agree on not more than two worldwide charger interfaces (~440V 3φ and ~220V 1φ), there will be a lot of frustrated motorists and manufacturers.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/10/2020 17:00:25
In any case, statutory standards and in particular EU Directives are nowadays mandated by and for the benefit of industry via ISO and IEC, set up to avoid repeating the Edison/Westinghouse nonsense.
Sounds like a good idea.

I think that adding a bit of petrol to diesel fuel  to improve cold weather performance ( and reduce waxing) was once common practice. It's hard to see that it did much harm. There's a potential risk from the petrol being abetter solvent.

Probably better to avoid doing either. Easy to address.
Make sure that the diesel spout is bigger then the petrol tank hole and also that the petrol spout is bigger than the diesel tank hole.
That guarantees that you can't put the wrong fuel in the tank

And that's why the decisions are actually made by industry experts (and scientists) rather than elected politicians.

The so called "un elected bureaucrats" who "make decisions" in the EU are chosen because unlike MEPs they actually know stuff.
The MEPs get to choose what experts to listen to.
They no longer have the option of listening to the UK's point of view because the UK "took back control".

But hey... blue passports!
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 07/10/2020 17:59:27
It's hard to see that it did much harm. There's a potential risk from the petrol being abetter solvent.
That's the real problem. The high pressure fuel pump in a diesel engine relies on the fuel for lubrication. Some old engines will run on petrol for just long enough to completely bugger it.

I won't rehearse the arguments about trade deficit, herring, butter, set-aside, dangerous medical devices, absurd radiation safety rules, and Hungarian domestic wiring - you've read it all here before, but if a blue passport is the cost of reason and prosperity, so be it. Sadly, I don't see much reason or sanity in the near future.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/10/2020 18:16:59
I won't rehearse the arguments about trade deficit, herring, butter, set-aside, dangerous medical devices, absurd radiation safety rules, and Hungarian domestic wiring - you've read it all here before,
I hadn't heard about intervention butter for ages.
Probably because it no longer exists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butter_mountain
"mostly disappeared by 2017, which has led to shortages. "

With the best will in the world, my interest in hungarian wiring is... limited.

Set-aside is an odd system, but it's a way of subsidising food security.

I'm sure you could goon at length about these things.
Is any of them relevant?

I'd rather have a maroon passport that lets me pass through ports than a blue one that doesn't.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 07/10/2020 20:09:54
The EU's obsession with the domestic mains supply in eastern states led inter alia to Dyson losing interest in the European market and moving production to Asia.

Interesting idea of improving food security by paying farmers to grow nothing. Being an occasional early riser, I recall an East Anglian barley baron explaining on Radio 4 that he wasn't growing anything for a year: the setaside covered his family outgoings and school fees, so why risk spending capital on men and materials in the hope of making a profit if it didn't rain in August?   

I don't recall having any problems travelling the world with a blue passport, but back in those days you could fly between the UK and Ireland without one. No longer, though there is no passport check on boats in either direction, or for travellers entering the UK by air from the Republic. Weird.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: pensador on 07/10/2020 21:17:06
Specifications > Different countries with different resources dont all need one solution controlled by multinationals.
Tell that to the EU!

More to the point, EVs will be manufactured by various companies in various countries to various specifications to suit various customers. The joy of diesel cars (or even gasoline nowadays) is you can refuel them all from the same source. Imagine if you could only put Volvo petrol in a Volvo, and it wouldn't work in a Ford - there would be an outcry from Volvo owners because Waitrose supermarkets don't sell petrol!  We already have a problem with incompatible charging sockets and power specifications, even in those rare cases where the forecourt charger actually works.

Government-led standardisation will reproduce the 47 different kinds of incompatible domestic mains plugs currently listed by the International Electrotechnical Commission. Industry-led standardisation will be a bit closer to the USB socket on your computer - apart from the Applecart, of course.

The EU is not a controlled by multinationals, or lobby groups as yet! It is however influenced by them providing experts on the various groups that create new regulations.

The fact that electricity is now 230VAC across europe, allows electrical appliances to be sold across the whole of europe. A simple adaptor plug is all that is required to use your 3 pin UK plug socket in european socket.

Diesel Cars are manufactured by various companies in various countries to various specifications to suit various customers. The joy of EVs is you can refuel them all from the same voltage source. Imagine if you could only Electricity in a Volvo, and it wouldn't work in a Ford - there would be an outcry from Volvo owners because Waitrose supermarkets don't sell Electricity!  We already have a no problem with elecricity as we developed switched mode power supplies years ago which can handle a huge fluctuation in voltage levels. In fact a SMP developed for Polish, Spanish Portuguese, German, Irish supplies will all currently work in the UK.

Diesel engines are not suitable for all countries without oil. Solar and wind are not suitable for countries without sun or wind.  Multinationals control the oil supply, and want people globally to use there product. Gullible people buy what they are told to buy by advertisers. Some even insist on using old diesel cars, which are being phased out in europe.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: evan_au on 07/10/2020 22:03:57
Quote from: alancalverd
until EV manufacturers can agree on not more than two worldwide charger interfaces (~440V 3φ and ~220V 1φ), there will be a lot of frustrated motorists and manufacturers.
A standard interface on the AC side is pretty close already. Since many chargers will be fixed in place (rather than built into the car), the charger can be permanently wired into the AC mains. This avoids any problems with national plugs.

The difficulty is on the DC socket on the car. Many cars have a different DC voltage on their battery pack, and different charging characteristics (voltage vs current). A different current needs a different connector. To some degree, a different voltage needs a different connector.

But the most invisible connector is the communications protocol by which the car talks to to the charger. Infinite variation is possible here, and standardization is definitely needed!
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/10/2020 22:20:40
No longer, though there is no passport check on boats in either direction, or for travellers entering the UK by air from the Republic. Weird.
So, the promise of "no border in the Irish sea" was a lie.
Gosh!
Mind you, it was a bloody obvious lie. It's a wonder anyone voted for the liar.
Interesting idea of improving food security by paying farmers to grow nothing
Yes, it certainly is interesting.
Without set aside, that farmer would have quit.
The land would still be left fallow.
But , if we suddenly needed farms because... I don't know... maybe some crackpot political scheme meant that you couldn't get stuff across the channel or the Irish sea, then we could  restart farming quite quickly. The farmers would  still be on their land.

Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 07/10/2020 23:21:21
The border in the Irish Sea, or rather at 3000 ft above the Irish Sea,  has been there for at least 30 years, and mysteriously only for those travelling westward, and only for passengers on commercial flights.

The land border is interesting too. Different currencies, different tax regimes, different VAT rates, different legal systems, yet no requirement for any border controls for the last 30 years. So why the fuss now?   

Quote
Without set aside, that farmer would have quit.The land would still be left fallow.
I doubt it. We are talking about 1000 acres of prime Suffolk that had been in his family for around 500 years. Then one day somebody said "to keep grain prices high, we'll pay you to grow absolutely nothing for the first time since Henry VIII gave it to your ancestors." Fact is that he quit farming (for a year, anyway) because you, the taxpayer, made it preferable for him to feed his family without doing anything at all.  Which is why he took to the airwaves to complain about the insanity of the CAP.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 08/10/2020 08:45:55
The difficulty is on the DC socket on the car. Many cars have a different DC voltage on their battery pack, and different charging characteristics (voltage vs current). A different current needs a different connector. To some degree, a different voltage needs a different connector.
Whenever I buy a power supply these days it comes with a big variety of adaptors.
The small ones are so cheap that the easiest option for the manufacturer is to include lots of them.
Adapters to handle the current needed for charging a car would be more expensive, but by no means impossible.
Changing the voltage is more of an issue but not much more; voltage converters are commonplace.


So why the fuss now?   
Because some bunch of fools decided to destroy the agreement about free movement of goods which, as you say, had been working fine for decades.



Fact is that he quit farming (for a year, anyway) because you, the taxpayer, made it preferable for him to feed his family without doing anything at all. 
So, the fact is that he didn't quite; that's the point.

The taxpayer...
well let's see
UK farm subsidies are about 3.4 billion. (Part of which is from the tax payers of other EU nations and  part from the UK)
The cost of brexit is about 200 billion (all of which falls to the UK taxpayer.) So it would take about 60 years to"break even" except that , in terms of the EU budget, the CAP is already being reduced.

And the punch line- in order to get the farmers to vote for them, the brexiteers promised to continue to give the same amount of money to the farmers as the EU did.
So the CAP remains, presumably, with "UK" written on it in crayon.

And the taxpayer gets it in the shorts to the tune of more money than the UK has paid into the EU since it began.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 08/10/2020 11:01:42
Quote from: alancalverd
until EV manufacturers can agree on not more than two worldwide charger interfaces (~440V 3φ and ~220V 1φ), there will be a lot of frustrated motorists and manufacturers.
A standard interface on the AC side is pretty close already. Since many chargers will be fixed in place (rather than built into the car), the charger can be permanently wired into the AC mains. This avoids any problems with national plugs.

The difficulty is on the DC socket on the car. Many cars have a different DC voltage on their battery pack, and different charging characteristics (voltage vs current). A different current needs a different connector. To some degree, a different voltage needs a different connector.

But the most invisible connector is the communications protocol by which the car talks to to the charger. Infinite variation is possible here, and standardization is definitely needed!

Hence the proposed simplification: only two supplies (440 or 220 AC) and each car carries whatever charger the manufacturer wants. It works for every other mains electrical device in the world, and replicates the universal and familiar gasoline/diesel pump system - rotary, piston, carburettor, high pressure rail, low pressure rail, turbocharger - all use the same input.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 08/10/2020 11:07:41
Because some bunch of fools decided to destroy the agreement about free movement of goods which, as you say, had been working fine for decades.

If you want to retain the trade deficit, just decide (no need to agree) not to charge any import duties on goods of EU origin, for as long as the EU reciprocates. No action required, but if the EU doesn't reciprocate, a 50% levy on German cars will restore the status quo in a matter of minutes.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: pensador on 08/10/2020 17:13:42
Because some bunch of fools decided to destroy the agreement about free movement of goods which, as you say, had been working fine for decades.

If you want to retain the trade deficit, just decide (no need to agree) not to charge any import duties on goods of EU origin, for as long as the EU reciprocates. No action required, but if the EU doesn't reciprocate, a 50% levy on German cars will restore the status quo in a matter of minutes.

If the UK wants to trade with the EU a trade agreement is needed, without an agreement, the UK MAY be able to revert to trade deals with various European countries that were never cancelled when the UK joined the EU. The EU will not import goods that do not comply with European standards, which are created by EU members which the UK has decided not to influence anymore through Brexit. The UK's influence will likely be even further diminished in the near future via the breakup of the UK. Northern Ireland is now seriously considering leaving the UK, and forming a new country with Southern Ireland. Scotland will separate from the UK given half a chance and rejoin the EU, especially now England has decided to force a Brexit deal against the overwhelming wishes of the other UK member countries to stay in the EU.

In what way does Brexit, farm subsidies etc relate to a thread on efficient motors for cars and bikes. Maybe subsidies for fusion reactors from European research grants are related. Or maybe charitable holidays for small 500 acre estate holders payed by Europe, who otherwise would go bankrupt through inability to compete with factory farms owned by supermarket chains, who also collect subsidies, or the imported grain from America where the farms are a tiny bit bigger, and need some where to dump their excess production. I think your farmer friend is likely going to sell up or go bust. Maybe he can get a job in a supermarket stacking shelves once his subsidies dry up.

Imported products already cost more in the UK, via the collapse of the Pound. UK exports are likely being protected at the moment due to the weakening of the pound, but after Brexit, without trade deals who is going to buy anything from the UK. 
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: acsinuk on 15/10/2020 14:44:03
As  large electric motorbike have the same magnetic brushless motors as small city cars will  use then the batteries should be interchangeable.  Standardization of voltages and there sockets is a must. Electric vehicles should have a built in trickle charger for small runabout city cars and garages should carry a stock of Lithium ion batteries that can be exchanged quickly.
 Maximum electric city mileage only 20 miles so smallish battery. 
For out of town motorway mileage use a Hybrid, petrol engine with 200 mile range but switch to electric in the city with 20 mile limit as only a small battery..
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: pensador on 15/10/2020 16:21:26
As  large electric motorbike have the same magnetic brushless motors as small city cars will  use then the batteries should be interchangeable.  Standardization of voltages and there sockets is a must. Electric vehicles should have a built in trickle charger for small runabout city cars and garages should carry a stock of Lithium ion batteries that can be exchanged quickly.
 Maximum electric city mileage only 20 miles so smallish battery. 
For out of town motorway mileage use a Hybrid, petrol engine with 200 mile range but switch to electric in the city with 20 mile limit as only a small battery..

The bottom line, according to Argonne National Laboratory, is that “the available materials will not be depleted in the foreseeable future. … Known lithium reserves could meet world demand to 2050.”
https://blog.energybrainpool.com/en/is-there-enough-lithium-to-feed-the-need-for-batteries/

In 30 years we could be out of Lithium, what then? Back to square one :( or Hydrogen fuel cells?
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/10/2020 17:21:01
In 30 years we could be out of Lithium
Where will it have gone?
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: pensador on 15/10/2020 18:57:03
In 30 years we could be out of Lithium
Where will it have gone?
The scrap yard!.
I read lithium ion batteries couldnt be recycled, so the lithium is lost. The article I Iinked to above is just one of many, which attempt to guesstimate how long the resource will last. They all have different guesstimates.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: acsinuk on 18/10/2020 17:55:54
Well, by reducing the size of battery to just a 20 mile range instead of 200 miles will make the Lithium last 10 times as long.  Long motorway distances and heavy lorries will have to use diesel or petrol.  So for now motorway service stations do not need to upgrade their grid connections to Megawatts which is good news.. 
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 18/10/2020 18:49:16
I read lithium ion batteries couldnt be recycled
Imagine that you took the old batteries and put them in the lithium mine...
So, of course it can be recycled.

https://phys.org/news/2019-12-lithium-recycled.html

It's possible; the question is price.
And, if the stuff is getting scarce the price will rise.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: evan_au on 18/10/2020 21:21:27
Small Electric Vehicles in China: Pros and Cons...
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: acsinuk on 19/10/2020 12:22:52
Well, it looks like the Chinese are getting ahead of us already.  Time for us to catch up using light weight Lithium ion batteries is running out.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 19/10/2020 12:26:15
Time for us to catch up using light weight Lithium ion batteries is running out.
Why?
What will stop us "catching up"?
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 19/10/2020 14:12:27
There's much to be said for the lead-acid battery if you aren't too worried about energy density: easy to recycle, very predictable, resilient charging regime, and they don't selfdestruct as spectacularly as lithium. Clearly not much use for a bike but the minimal 4-seat town car is a good idea.

The G-Wiz got a bad press in the UK but was probably released ahead of its time and into the wrong market. Adding some crash protection would make sense, and if you could recharge it with an on-board diesel generator running at optimum efficiency (constant power, lean burn)  you could reduce a lot of urban pollution (mostly caused by accelerating i.c. engines)  without having to introduce any new infrastructure.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: acsinuk on 09/11/2020 17:43:12
I certainly like the idea of having an electric city car like the Citreon AMI which if needing to go out of town on a long journey could tow a hired generator behind it which charged up the battery continuously turning it into a hybrid. 
Or possibly we could fix the generator on the roof rack which would be environmentally friendly in town but allow the driver the opportunity to be a normal hybrid when out of town without worrying about recharging battery delays.   
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 09/11/2020 19:39:11
Given the profound incompetence of the average motorist, the idea of citydwellers  storming around country lanes (where the accident rate per vehicle-mile is already higher than any other roads) towing a trailer or with a heavy load on the roof of a tiny car, is appalling. Worse, there would be an outward rush every evening as they drove off into the suburbs to recharge their batteries in the once-clear air of the countryside.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: acsinuk on 10/11/2020 17:34:32
We need to keep coming up with new ideas of how to be more economical and environmentally friendly.  Hybrid SUV are an expensive polluting disaster and should be banned from our city streets immediately.  SUV are okay for farmers and builders but why use one to take the kids to school.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 10/11/2020 21:38:58
SUV are okay for farmers and builders but why use one to take the kids to school.
So, farmers and builders need to buy a second vehicle- just to take the kids to school.
Doesn't seem very "green" to me.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 10/11/2020 22:38:11
Hybrid SUV are an expensive polluting disaster and should be banned from our city streets immediately. 

Unless you want some building work or food, that is. But SUVs aren't a lot of use for builders or farmers - pickup trucks or big vans are better for moving tools, bricks and animals. SUVs are for showing how much you care about not exposing your children to sun and rain, or mixing with the Great Unwashed on the bus.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: acsinuk on 13/11/2020 17:18:57
We should rename SUVs as Super Unfriendly [ both environmentally and economically] Vehicles. How are we going to deal with global warming if people use them as runabouts?
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 13/11/2020 17:48:19
We should rename SUVs as Super Unfriendly [ both environmentally and economically] Vehicles. How are we going to deal with global warming if people use them as runabouts?
Raise fuel duty?
Polluter pays.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: acsinuk on 14/11/2020 16:17:58
Yes, raise fuel prices and also vehicle tax to be set in grams per kilometre. Cars £100, SUVs £200 etc. Pure electric vehicles £20 as some can be charged up using wind or solar power..
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 14/11/2020 17:46:57
Vehicle tax is pointless. It penalises low-mileage essential users (rural grannies) and has no effect on megamile gas guzzlers. Fuel duty is a very efficient tax, and essential business users effectively reclaim it as an expense. 
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: acsinuk on 15/11/2020 20:19:20
Problem is we need to be able to use lorries at a reasonable rate but suppose it will still be cheaper than rail and triple handling anyway.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/11/2020 20:53:59
Problem is we need to be able to use lorries at a reasonable rate but suppose it will still be cheaper than rail and triple handling anyway.
In principle, we can run lorries on "red diesel".
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: EuniceSmith on 09/02/2021 10:38:35
good question, I just wanted to take a motorcycle for myself, I need it to ride around the city, I don't want too powerful, I'm not going to drive it :D
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Juan25 on 12/02/2021 07:22:02
Rear motors are best for riders wanting or needing more power, or those looking to incorporate a throttle. There are also some new electric road bikes with small 250W rear hub motors that can be very stealthy with an integrated battery for a clean, traditional appearance.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: mearchd on 06/12/2021 06:32:02
E bike is a new way for commuting. It is friendly to our live environment. I got one electric bike from spammybike,cog which really helps me
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Colin2B on 06/12/2021 08:42:42
I got one electric bike from spammybike,cog which really helps me
Another weak attempt to pedal goods. On y’er bike mate ...
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: sceptic-eng on 06/12/2021 20:49:51
In electric motorbikes Honda are leading the charge but China has already produced a 15 kW permanent magnet motor using a 15kWh lithium battery which is also suitable for city runabout electric cars at a very competitive price.
UK needs to start production of these electric micro cars to limit climate change and improve city air quality.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: mayorovd on 16/04/2022 17:06:32
This government, and others of the same colour over the last 4 decades that I know of have steadfastly said that "near market" research should be paid for by the industry.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: acsinuk on 13/05/2022 13:38:52
Yes, but the basic research should be funded by government grants to universities; such as Notts and the results published to the metal bashers in the Midlands to develop into small micro electric cars as a showroom product.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Bored chemist on 13/05/2022 18:09:21
but the basic research
Was done my Faraday, some time ago.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: alancalverd on 13/05/2022 23:29:17
metal bashers in the Midlands
How very 1960s! The Blessed Saint Margaret Thatcher deemed that Britain should become a service economy because her husband was an accountant, not an engineer. Rolls Royce and Mini are now subsidiaries of BMW, Jaguar is Indian, and practically every other British car manufacturer mysteriously became bankrupt after attracting massive re-flotation investment and cleaning out the pension fund.

There are still a few factories in Birmingham making sewing needles and belt buckles, and Coventry airport is planned to be the next entrepreneurial disaster, to replace the runway with a speculative megafactory to make Japanese-designed batteries for foreign-manufactured cars. Metalbashing on any significant scale is  now done in China, not the Midlands, because it is all about profitability.
Title: Re: Which electric motor is best for electric bikes and scooters?
Post by: Rodneyhhernandez on 16/05/2022 12:58:22
General answer, smallest and most effective electric motor :)