[acsinuk (OP)]

Motorcycle News latest edition states that Honda,  Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki are jointly developing new battery packs for bikes but where is the British version being developed??  England used to lead the world in technical development and specification.
 Which university will take up this challenge?   We need to specify which type of motor AC or DC brushed or unbrushed is most reliable, then find the most economic variable speed control and finally specify the battery size, shape and connector. [ which Japan is about to take the lead in.]
I am convinced that the government would help universities fund such a research project which could spin off into new manufacturing opportunities and employment for thousands of people.

[evan_au]

Honda,  Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki ... the British version

Please name 4 British motorcycle brands that are this well known, worldwide...

I can see Triumph, Norton & BSA, but they are not in the same category.

specify the battery size, shape and connector.

The capacity will differ greatly between a beginners bike and a superbike.
- The size will be as small as possible for the available battery chemistry

The output voltage will be a tradeoff between output power and the cost of the electronics.

Aesthetics and aerodynamics is important in motorbike design. These will dictate the battery shape for an individual bike.
- And having a unique aesthetic dictates that the shape of every bike battery will be different from every other

The only hope for standardization might be in the connector. But even then, a beginners bike won't want to pay for the high-capacity connector of a superbike.
- Having a common connector for a charging station would be a real win. But the standardisation will probably involve software - the charging station will communicate with the bike to determine the best charging voltage and current.

[Bored chemist]

I am convinced that the government would help universities fund such a research project which could spin off into new manufacturing opportunities and employment for thousands of people.

This government, and others of the same colour over the last 4 decades that I know of have steadfastly said that "near market" research should be paid for by the industry.
Since we barely have an automotive industry in the Uk- again, largely due to government policy- I don't see it happening.

Aesthetics and aerodynamics is important in motorbike design. These will dictate the battery shape for an individual bike.

So, Harley Davidsons could presumably just use a stack of lead/ acid car batteries. in keeping with their design ethic of "big square and heavy".
:-)

[alancalverd]

And this really isn't a task for a university. The technology is all known. What is required is design, standardisation, compliance with roadworthiness requirements, component sourcing, assembly jigs, manufacturing quality control, packaging, despatch , advertising, sales, service, dealer stocking, racing team management....all the stuff that Triumph, Norton and BSA used to do rather well in the bad old days when manufacturers could borrow money at a sensible rate, investors were prepared to wait more than five minutes for a profit,  and before the factories and test tracks were sold to speculative house builders.

The British economy is based on house sales and currency speculation, not manufacturing. Where have you been since 1979?   

However since Britain leads the world in loud non-music, I am sure there is a market for an add-on that makes an electric bike sound like a teenager's dream.  I (and the Metropolitan Police) always liked the Vincent Black Shadow - lots of very sophisticated decibels. You can't make a statement with a silent motorbike, which is why Her Majesty's Fuzz gave up on the watercooled bikes.

[mikeduke1290]

Rear motors are best for riders wanting or needing more power, or those looking to incorporate a throttle. There are also some new electric road bikes with small 250W rear hub motors that can be very stealthy with an integrated battery for a clean, traditional appearance.

Hope this information is helpful to you

[acsinuk (OP)]

Mike, most of the scooters are using a no brushes 3 phase motor with a powerful permanent magnet rotor.  A variable speed electronic controller drives the field forwards but is this more reliable or economical than a series DC brushed rotor motor?

[alancalverd]

Yes.

[Bored chemist]

Both.

[lucky33]

The problem with electric motors is that they need to be disposed of later. Therefore, gasoline creates a problem in the atmosphere, and electric motors create a disposal problem.

[Bored chemist]

The problem with electric motors is that they need to be disposed of later. Therefore, gasoline creates a problem in the atmosphere, and electric motors create a disposal problem.

Almost all the components in an electric motor are valuable and can be recycled.
It's much less of a problem

[alancalverd]

True. But the recycling process requires energy and produces chemical waste. Likewise for lithium batteries (or indeed any other type of electrochemical storage), which tend to die earlier than the motors. On a whole-life basis, lead-acid or nickel-iron batteries are more economical and probably less polluting  but can't match the energy density or spectacular selfdestruction of lithium cells.

[Bored chemist]

But the recycling process requires energy and produces chemical waste

If someone is scrapping an electric motor, they are almost certainly buying a replacement.
So the question is, does this create less waste than making things from" scratch- including all the waste from the mine etc?
But we can do the other comparison.
I will set up a business recycling scrapped electric motors and you can set one up recycling carbon dioxide to make new petrol.
The big issues with what Lucky posted are that, like motors, engines wear out and have to be scrapped.
And the electric vehicle needs power from somewhere.
Until we get renewables sorted out, that means moving the pollution somewhere else. In the middle of a city that might be worthwhile.

[acsinuk (OP)]

 Lithium ion are so much more lighter that we need to use them on vehicles although for static power backup batteries other types could be more economical.
Read an interesting MAGNAX article on Axial verses radial permanent magnet motors which shows conclusively that axial flux flow machines are smaller, slimmer and lighter than old radial flux AC machines or very old DC motors.
So 6 or 12 pole inner stator axial flux motors with neodymium magnet outside rotors on a 3 bearing rotor keyed drive shaft are the future drive motors we need to use.
Batteries at present Lithium ions are lightest to deal with from a stored energy per kilogram weight point of view. 
All we need is a university to develop a British variety that suits all our needs , to power either a city runabout or a performance motorcycle.  Same motor/battery technology!!

[alancalverd]

My vote is still for hydrogen. Whilst electric vehicles are a Good Thing, in a city the problem of kerbside recharging or 5 minute charging at a garage, has not really been solved.

[Bored chemist]

All we need is a university to develop a British variety

Why?
Why does it need to be a University?
Why does it need to be British?
Why does it need to be different i.e. "non-standard"?

[alancalverd]

All we need is a university to develop a British variety that suits all our needs

You have clearly never awarded a development contract to a university.

[pensador]

My vote is still for hydrogen. Whilst electric vehicles are a Good Thing, in a city the problem of kerbside recharging or 5 minute charging at a garage, has not really been solved.

Yes Hydrogen is good option if you want to maintain the same specifications for range and power. But most people do not need the range, or a 4x4 to run the kids to school.

The problem is specification. Most commuters fill up once a week. People dropping the kids of at school or going back wards and forwards to the shops dont normally need to fill up weekly. Most vehicles spend a large amount of time parked, when they can easily be charged if the facilities were available.

AC Electric motors can be controlled extremely efficiently by modern control methods, If its acceleration you want, electric has currently got the records https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36606500

[alancalverd]

Most vehicles spend a large amount of time parked, when they can easily be charged if the facilities were available.

My italics. There are now 35,000,000 cars in the UK. If their electric replacements are to be as useable as the present vehicles, we will need to install about 20,000,000 standardised kerbside charging points and 15GW of continuously available electricity. I don't see an incompetent government or its bankrupt successor being able to make this happen, nor do I smell much enthusiasm from the privatised electricity companies.

[pensador]

Most vehicles spend a large amount of time parked, when they can easily be charged if the facilities were available.

My italics. There are now 35,000,000 cars in the UK. If their electric replacements are to be as useable as the present vehicles, we will need to install about 20,000,000 standardised kerbside charging points and 15GW of continuously available electricity. I don't see an incompetent government or its bankrupt successor being able to make this happen, nor do I smell much enthusiasm from the privatised electricity companies.

By useable it comes down to range and ability to recharge. Not everyone needs the the same specification of vehicle

Cars are a large capital expenditure for most people. A small investment in a battery charger at home, would be the obvious solution for most. Most people are not sales reps filling up their cars 2 or 3 times a week. The point being most people do not need a vehicle with a 500 mile range, those people could quite easily put their cars on charge when they returned home, after a short commute. It might even help with power station loading, with smart chargers the power stations could choose when to charge a vehicle within a set time period.

Denmark is a market leader in this technology a quick google flagged up this https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/5k8zvv8g70q5-en.pdf?expires=1601828883&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=579B7D01CB6521C6F5827147B70F6A7B Smart Grids might be the way to go.

As an aside for the OP GEC Alsthom developed the mag lev train technology used in Japan. It was never implemented in the UK because of politics and privatisation of the rail network

[Bored chemist]

My italics. There are now 35,000,000 cars in the UK. If their electric replacements are to be as useable as the present vehicles, we will need to install about 20,000,000 standardised kerbside charging points and 15GW of continuously available electricity.

According to this
https://www.racfoundation.org/data/volume-petrol-diesel-consumed-uk-over-time-by-year
we burn about 50 billion litres of petrol and diesel per year (and it has been remarkably consistent over the last 30 years)
Each litre provides about 35MJ of energy.
1.75 x 10^18 J per year
That's about 55GW

Even allowing that electricity might be significantly more efficient, I think it will be more than 15GW.

Most people do not recognise the power transfer rate of a trip to the petrol station.
A pump delivering a fairly modest 1 litre per second will be transferring the equivalent of 30 or 40 MW.

It's even worse across teh pond.
The US burns about 550 billion litres of petrol and 180 billion litres of diesel.
About 800 GW
I gather from wiki that
"In 2018 the total US consumption of electricity was 4,222.5 terawatt-hours (TWh)."
4.2 X 10^15 watt hours per year
8760 hours per year.
About 400GW

It looks like the entire US power grid does not handle enough power to recharge all the cars.

The solution to these problems is not better engines or better batteries, but fewer journeys.