Naked Science Forum

Life Sciences => Cells, Microbes & Viruses => Topic started by: Seany on 11/04/2007 14:02:13

Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 14:02:13
I was wondering exactly what I was? We're made up of billions of cells. Am I just a bunch of cells? Or am I SEAN? Or am I DNA's? Exactly what am I?
Title: What Am I?
Post by: paul.fr on 11/04/2007 14:06:01
i would say you are just DNA, and your purpose is to reproduce more DNA
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 14:19:11
Mm ok. But, if we are just bunches of DNA's then who controls who? Because I'm controlling my eyes, my ears and hands etc.. but it feels like one person?
Title: What Am I?
Post by: paul.fr on 11/04/2007 14:22:06
the DNA gives you some free will, but ultimetly it wants you to get out there and make babies so it can carry on.

you are a parasite...no you are a host for the DNA
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 14:24:46
I see.. Very confusing, but makes sense i guess.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 11/04/2007 14:25:24
i would say you are just DNA, and your purpose is to reproduce more DNA

Nice simple answer - but too simple.

What about identical twins - they share the same DNA.

What about when you have a viral infection - particularly if it is a retrovirus - that changes your DNA, but does it change who you are?
Title: What Am I?
Post by: paul.fr on 11/04/2007 14:29:23

"I see.. Very confusing, but makes sense i guess."


hold on, that is the first time i have made sense to someone...are you tired or on medication seanahnik?

note to self: stop posting half intelligent posts.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 14:34:14
lol Paul.. I'm a bit tired I guess, but I still think it makes sense.. a bit :P
Title: What Am I?
Post by: paul.fr on 11/04/2007 14:35:04


sometimes the simple answer is the best! Twins, the DNA has still done its job the mother and father DNA successfully reproduced and as an added bonus created double the DNA. this is a great success for the DNA.

the DNA has no control over the infections, this is the problem the DNA has with the host body. it can not control every aspect but we are the best host that the DNA has found.

the DNA may change with infection but it's purpose is still the same....make more, anyway the change in DNA may be usefull to it! it could be a way to further evolve
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 14:36:31
"Further evolve"

This is a point.. But, surely if the DNA's change, it makes.. I mean deforms us? And overtakes our minds? or something..
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 11/04/2007 14:38:09
I would say that asking what is a person is very like asking what is a nation.

A single animal (human or otherwise) is a system.  the DNA may provide the blueprint for how the system functions, but the blueprint is not the system itself.  The system is defined by the relationship of its component parts (even if every atom of your body is changed, and every cell in your body is changed, so long as the new atoms and cells perform the same functions as the old, and retain the same relationship within the system as a whole, then the integrity of the system is maintained).

Probably, even better, would be to look at the overall behaviour of the system.  We define systems by their historic continuity and their behaviour (i.e. if it has your history, and behaves like you, then it is you, no matter how it is constituted).
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 14:42:09
Yeah, that makes sense.. But then, what is the point in this "nation" ?
Title: What Am I?
Post by: paul.fr on 11/04/2007 14:45:13
quote
"Further evolve"

This is a point.. But, surely if the DNA's change, it makes.. I mean deforms us? And overtakes our minds? or something..
quote end

yes but you are the host, if you have already made babies then the DNA is not too bothered about what suffering, pain...the host is gonig through. if you have not yet made babies then this will concern the DNA.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 14:47:06
Ah I see.. So, us as a whole, don't care if we are harmed, or changed.. As long as we carry on to make more?
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 11/04/2007 15:01:27
sometimes the simple answer is the best! Twins, the DNA has still done its job the mother and father DNA successfully reproduced and as an added bonus created double the DNA. this is a great success for the DNA.

Sometimes the simple answer is the best, but that does not mean all simple answers are right.

The point about twins is that if one is defined by one's DNA, then if two people share the same DNA, they are by inference only one person, not two.  By your argument, twins do not have separate identities as separate human beings.

This is a genuine problem, insofar as whether you consider a plant that is taken as a cutting as being part of the parent plant, or do you consider it a separate plant.  More generally yet, animals and plants that reproduce by cloning (vegetative reproduction) - are the daughter organisms really separate organisms or just a distant part of the parent (they do after all share the same DNA).

the DNA has no control over the infections, this is the problem the DNA has with the host body. it can not control every aspect but we are the best host that the DNA has found.

But you are not being consistent here.

You are talking about 'we' as something separate from the DNA - yet if all we are is the DNA, then there is no 'we' that can be regarded as separate from the DNA.  To regard us as hosts for our DNA is totally different from saying we are the DNA.

Again - there is a problem as to what is regarded as an infection.  Past infections with parasites have actually incorporated those parasites into our ancestor genomes, and have helped to make us who we are today; and no doubt that some of today's infections will be incorporated into our descendants and become part of their genome.  At what point does an 'infection' become part of the 'self'?

the DNA may change with infection but it's purpose is still the same....make more, anyway the change in DNA may be usefull to it! it could be a way to further evolve

It is true that the purpose of DNA is to make more of the same - but the point is still what is 'self'.

If today you have one set of DNA, and tomorrow (due to infection) you have a different set of infection, then both your own DNA and the virus are trying replicate, but then the two have become one, and replicate together.  Which then is the 'self'?

What about cancer cells - are they part of you?  What about human cells that are grown in vitro (either from lines of stem cells or lines of cancer cells) - are they still a part of the human being from whose DNA they originated, even though they are physically separate from the person, and have no further part to play in that person's life?
Title: What Am I?
Post by: paul.fr on 11/04/2007 15:05:29
quote
Ah I see.. So, us as a whole, don't care if we are harmed, or changed.. As long as we carry on to make more?
end quote

well we care, but the DNA does not.



note: i am making this up as i go along, but it does sound rather good and convincing. i am quite pleased with myself and may have to do more thinking which tends to hurt. maybe the DNA does not want me to know the truth.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 15:05:34
Thanks Another Someone. I have a clearer image of what this "body" of ours is now. But atm, it's still so confusing, but I can see where your coming from. Thanks Paul too! =)
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 15:07:03
Haha, Paul.. lol. Yup, I admit, what you're saying does sound quite convincing. Yet, so does Another Someone's. =P I really think the DNA's want to keep these secret from us :P
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 11/04/2007 15:07:13
Yeah, that makes sense.. But then, what is the point in this "nation" ?

What is the 'point' of human beings?  We are - nations are - does there need to be a point.  Systems merely exist because the component parts that make up the system function as a whole.

A nation is a structured conglomeration of human beings, just as a human being is a structured conglomeration of cells - and in each case, it is not the component parts that matter but just the structure they form.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 15:09:03
Ok then.. Sidetracking away from this.. What is the point in us being here. In us living? We all know that we are to die. One day. Is it really that we were sent down to look after "God's" creation?
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 11/04/2007 15:14:06
Quote
Ah I see.. So, us as a whole, don't care if we are harmed, or changed.. As long as we carry on to make more?

well we care, but the DNA does not.


But again, you are making a distinction between 'we' and the DNA.

note: i am making this up as i go along, but it does sound rather good and convincing. i am quite pleased with myself and may have to do more thinking which tends to hurt. maybe the DNA does not want me to know the truth.

Isn't that which makes it fun [:D]
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 15:15:39
Why is it that quoting doesn't work for me? It says "The following error or errors occurred while posting this message:"
Title: What Am I?
Post by: paul.fr on 11/04/2007 15:16:32
quote
Ok then.. Sidetracking away from this.. What is the point in us being here. In us living? We all know that we are to die. One day. Is it really that we were sent down to look after "God's" creation?
end quote

but i answered that, we are just here as a host for the DNA. we will surely die but we are only here as a host for the DNA, once we have done "the business" we have no useful purpose.


George, i will think some more and get back to your questions after a nice bath, i am still formulating my theory.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 15:19:05
Hang on Paul.. a HOST for the Dna? So why does the DNA want to carry on? Again, we are back to square 1. Let's say that we are just ONE Dna? Why does the DNA want to carry on living?
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 11/04/2007 15:22:49
Why is it that quoting doesn't work for me? It says "The following error or errors occurred while posting this message:"

Not only you.

Just recently – within the last hour or less, I have been having the same problem.

I have been getting around it by positing a message that only contains a single dot, and then modifying the message to contain the contents I actually wanted it to contain.

I suspect someone has 'upgraded' the system with a little buggette, and hoped we might not notice.  We may have to let them know that we have noticed it.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: paul.fr on 11/04/2007 15:33:07
quote
Hang on Paul.. a HOST for the Dna? So why does the DNA want to carry on? Again, we are back to square 1. Let's say that we are just ONE Dna? Why does the DNA want to carry on living?
end quote

ok, very quickly and off the top of my head.

what is the purpose of the DNA and why once it has made more does it allow you some extra free will, why does it not want you to live for ever so it can make even more of itself.

think of the DNA as the royal family, what is the purpose of the King, Queen or ruling monarch? to make the next king, going around opening fetes and having nice banquites is all well and good but the main purpose is to carry on the blood line.

this is what the DNA is doing, it knows that "we" as a host are not perfect and succeptable to desease and infection but it is the best it has. once you have done your royal duty and made the next generation of DNA it's job is done.



controversial note here and not my opinions just a quick thought.

If god was DNA and not some high being on anothe plain, this could be why homosexuality is frowned upon! no chance of making more DNA.
note i have gay friends...the above just makes sense if DNA was god

bath time...hoping for a eureka moment!
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 15:48:11
quote
Hang on Paul.. a HOST for the Dna? So why does the DNA want to carry on? Again, we are back to square 1. Let's say that we are just ONE Dna? Why does the DNA want to carry on living?
end quote

ok, very quickly and off the top of my head.

what is the purpose of the DNA and why once it has made more does it allow you some extra free will, why does it not want you to live for ever so it can make even more of itself.

think of the DNA as the royal family, what is the purpose of the King, Queen or ruling monarch? to make the next king, going around opening fetes and having nice banquites is all well and good but the main purpose is to carry on the blood line.

this is what the DNA is doing, it knows that "we" as a host are not perfect and succeptable to desease and infection but it is the best it has. once you have done your royal duty and made the next generation of DNA it's job is done.



controversial note here and not my opinions just a quick thought.

If god was DNA and not some high being on anothe plain, this could be why homosexuality is frowned upon! no chance of making more DNA.
note i have gay friends...the above just makes sense if DNA was god

bath time...hoping for a eureka moment!

Yes, but WHY does this "Royal Family" wish to keep this blood line going?

Yes, and I really hope you get a "Eureka" moment in there  [:P]
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 11/04/2007 15:54:04
Hang on Paul.. a HOST for the Dna? So why does the DNA want to carry on? Again, we are back to square 1. Let's say that we are just ONE Dna? Why does the DNA want to carry on living?

Ok then.. Sidetracking away from this.. What is the point in us being here. In us living? We all know that we are to die. One day. Is it really that we were sent down to look after "God's" creation?

Systems depend upon rules that govern their behaviour in order to sustain themselves.  The DNA contains the rules that govern the behaviour of the cells (note – when we are talking about multicellular organisms, it is the behaviour of the cells the govern rather than the behaviour of the total organism, although ofcourse the behaviour of the total organism is itself controlled by the cells that compose it).  In some ways, the information in the DNA can be seen to be to a cell what a body of law are to a country – the law is a necessity, but not a definition of a country.  Furthermore, a law book does not constitute the law itself, it is merely a form of physical storage for the law – so too, the DNA does not define the rules by which cell behaves, it is merely the physical storage in which those rules are stored.

Yes, it is true that the information that is contained within the DNA (the genes) do perpetuate themselves, and in that respect we are the servants of our genes, but a servant is not the same as his master, despite the relationship between them.

The question was, what are 'we', not what governs us – they are different questions.

In the same way that a member (citizen or resident) of a country, is subservient to the laws of that country, and is required to uphold and perpetuate those laws, but nonetheless the individual person still has an identity that is separate from the law, despite being subservient to it.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 15:54:23
By the way, Another_Someone, thanks for your quoting method. It works now =) Hope it gets fixed soon
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 15:54:36
Lol! I just saw your dot lol
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 15:57:37
Hang on Paul.. a HOST for the Dna? So why does the DNA want to carry on? Again, we are back to square 1. Let's say that we are just ONE Dna? Why does the DNA want to carry on living?

Ok then.. Sidetracking away from this.. What is the point in us being here. In us living? We all know that we are to die. One day. Is it really that we were sent down to look after "God's" creation?

Systems depend upon rules that govern their behaviour in order to sustain themselves.  The DNA contains the rules that govern the behaviour of the cells (note – when we are talking about multicellular organisms, it is the behaviour of the cells the govern rather than the behaviour of the total organism, although ofcourse the behaviour of the total organism is itself controlled by the cells that compose it).  In some ways, the information in the DNA can be seen to be to a cell what a body of law are to a country – the law is a necessity, but not a definition of a country.  Furthermore, a law book does not constitute the law itself, it is merely a form of physical storage for the law – so too, the DNA does not define the rules by which cell behaves, it is merely the physical storage in which those rules are stored.

Yes, it is true that the information that is contained within the DNA (the genes) do perpetuate themselves, and in that respect we are the servants of our genes, but a servant is not the same as his master, despite the relationship between them.

The question was, what are 'we', not what governs us – they are different questions.

In the same way that a member (citizen or resident) of a country, is subservient to the laws of that country, and is required to uphold and perpetuate those laws, but nonetheless the individual person still has an identity that is separate from the law, despite being subservient to it.

OK. So I'm getting the idea of this whole gene and dna thing. But there's still something that confuses me, but I'm not sure what. It's in the back of my head, and I can't seem to find it.  [???]
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 11/04/2007 16:05:09
controversial note here and not my opinions just a quick thought.

If god was DNA and not some high being on anothe plain, this could be why homosexuality is frowned upon! no chance of making more DNA.
note i have gay friends...the above just makes sense if DNA was god

The above is partly true.

The complication is that you share genes with other people, and sometimes it is valuable to help your siblings reproduce even where you do not successfully reproduce, because that way at least some of your genes will survive through your siblings children, and if the combined effort gives your siblings children a better chance of surviving than would be possible if you and your siblings were each in competition through your respective offspring, it is sometimes a trade-off worth making.

The most extreme example of this is with worker bees (or similar ranks in social ants, etc.) where the individual will help the hive survive, but will never reproduce themselves.  The situation with social insects is slightly different from the human situation, since the members of a hive all share 100% of there genes, whereas human siblings (unless they are identical twins) will only share 50% of their genes, but 50% is still much better than 0%.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 16:08:34
Yup, Paul, I see where your theory on God being DNA is coming from. Yet, how does "God", KNOW that homosexuality will not create more DNA's? How does that one single DNA, KNOW what is going to happen?
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 16:10:17
Another_Someone, just one curious question to ask. When does my status from Newbie, change? I made this account a couple of days ago, because I had a science question which needed answering. Fun site though, to share our thoughts  [;)]
Title: What Am I?
Post by: paul.fr on 11/04/2007 16:29:21
well no eureka moment, but as with all theories they keep evolving. i now wonder if the DNA picked us as a host not because we were the best it could find but because we were adaptive. It may have seen how we evolved and thought that our own evolution would benefit its own evolution.

As humans got smarter so did the DNA.

If the DNA is god then it would know that repdoduction was impossible through homosexual relations, but because we are adaptive and skilled even homosexuals can noe have children through scientific methods - another good reason for the DNA choosing us as a host.

The DNA needs to keep the "blood lines" going for it's own survival and evolution, it is, or at least thinks it is the ruler and in control...or something, i am still working on it.

Yes, George it is fun.

As for when do you stop being a newbie - once you pst enough stupid questions and answers. look at me full member - lots of stupid q and a's!
no seriously it goes on how many posts you make.

Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 11/04/2007 16:42:43
Another_Someone, just one curious question to ask. When does my status from Newbie, change? I made this account a couple of days ago, because I had a science question which needed answering. Fun site though, to share our thoughts  [;)]


First increment of status is at 50 posts.

The following is a copy of a post made on the moderators private board about this question:

Quote

Newbie                                           *       0   
Jr. Member                                      **      50   
Full Member                                    ***     100   
Sr. Member                                    ****     250   
Hero Member                                  *****     500   
Neilep Level Member                         ******    6000   
Too Much Free Time Level Member         **********    9000


BTW, the quoting problem has now been fixed.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 16:56:02
well no eureka moment, but as with all theories they keep evolving. i now wonder if the DNA picked us as a host not because we were the best it could find but because we were adaptive. It may have seen how we evolved and thought that our own evolution would benefit its own evolution.

As humans got smarter so did the DNA.

If the DNA is god then it would know that repdoduction was impossible through homosexual relations, but because we are adaptive and skilled even homosexuals can noe have children through scientific methods - another good reason for the DNA choosing us as a host.

The DNA needs to keep the "blood lines" going for it's own survival and evolution, it is, or at least thinks it is the ruler and in control...or something, i am still working on it.

Yes, George it is fun.

As for when do you stop being a newbie - once you pst enough stupid questions and answers. look at me full member - lots of stupid q and a's!
no seriously it goes on how many posts you make.



The DNA picking us as a host.. I think that's quite understandable. Just like viruses pick on humans to live on, DNA's do the same?

And Another_Someone, thanks for that info =)
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Karen W. on 11/04/2007 17:14:33
Yes I had same problems posted and emailed Dave and he has sorted it out! YAYYYYYYYYYYY!
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 17:16:15
Haha, thanks Karen [:)]
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 11/04/2007 17:20:13
The DNA picking us as a host.. I think that's quite understandable. Just like viruses pick on humans to live on, DNA's do the same?

To imply that DNA picked us is to imply that we can exist without the DNA.

At a genetic level, I would question whether we are any different from just a collection of viruses.  We certainly contain old historic viruses within our genome, and all a virus is is a handful of genes wrapped up in a very simple carrier that inserts those genes into another cell.  We too are genes with all sorts of cellular machinery around it, so if one removes that machinery, a gene is just a gene, whether it was inherited from your parents or from a viral infection, or from a viral infection that infected your ancestor.

Ofcourse, the cellular machinery is an important part of the cell - the gene is merely the software of the cell, it still requires the hardware with which to function (software in the absence of the right hardware is meaningless).
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 18:37:20
The DNA picking us as a host.. I think that's quite understandable. Just like viruses pick on humans to live on, DNA's do the same?

To imply that DNA picked us is to imply that we can exist without the DNA.

At a genetic level, I would question whether we are any different from just a collection of viruses.  We certainly contain old historic viruses within our genome, and all a virus is is a handful of genes wrapped up in a very simple carrier that inserts those genes into another cell.  We too are genes with all sorts of cellular machinery around it, so if one removes that machinery, a gene is just a gene, whether it was inherited from your parents or from a viral infection, or from a viral infection that infected your ancestor.

Ofcourse, the cellular machinery is an important part of the cell - the gene is merely the software of the cell, it still requires the hardware with which to function (software in the absence of the right hardware is meaningless).

Yeah, that's true that to imply that DNA picked us is to imply that we can exist without DNA.

How about, we could once live without genes/DNA but when DNA entered our body (like a virus), our bodies became immuned to them, and kept them. This triggered the evolving of humans, which is what is left of us now?
Title: What Am I?
Post by: paul.fr on 11/04/2007 18:43:39

Yeah, that's true that to imply that DNA picked us is to imply that we can exist without DNA.

How about, we could once live without genes/DNA but when DNA entered our body (like a virus), our bodies became immuned to them, and kept them. This triggered the evolving of humans, which is what is left of us now?

good thinking for a non-chelsea fan, i will have to sort this out...

may be, DNA started out as a little piece of code alone in the sea or where ever. like a parasite it eventually needed a host for it's own evolution. first i entered single cell organisms and as it evolved it progressed to infect everything.

one and all are just hosts to DNA
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 18:48:16

Yeah, that's true that to imply that DNA picked us is to imply that we can exist without DNA.

How about, we could once live without genes/DNA but when DNA entered our body (like a virus), our bodies became immuned to them, and kept them. This triggered the evolving of humans, which is what is left of us now?

good thinking for a non-chelsea fan, i will have to sort this out...

may be, DNA started out as a little piece of code alone in the sea or where ever. like a parasite it eventually needed a host for it's own evolution. first i entered single cell organisms and as it evolved it progressed to infect everything.

one and all are just hosts to DNA

Haha? You've already read that I hate Chelsea? Lol, things spread fast in these forums. [:P] Im a liverpool fan. Muahaha [:)]

Yup, and I also think you're theory is understandable once again. The DNA used to be a little loner in the sea, and needed a revolution. Best choice, us humans.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 18:48:42
And heh, I'm a Junior Member now. :) 40 posts in one day, good effort? [:P]
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 11/04/2007 19:00:19
may be, DNA started out as a little piece of code alone in the sea or where ever. like a parasite it eventually needed a host for it's own evolution. first i entered single cell organisms and as it evolved it progressed to infect everything.

one and all are just hosts to DNA

So where was the DNA created?

The only place where we know DNA is created is within a living cell (not even viruses are capable of manufacturing DNA - they have to use another living organism to manufacture DNA - this is one reason why most biologists would not regard viruses as a living entity).

The trouble is that cells require DNA to instruct them how to build the machinery to create DNA, and DNA requires the cell to get created - very much a chicken and egg situation.

The following is pure speculation:

One would guess that early proto life contained all sorts of mixes of chemical processes, and some of them started to create some sort of cellular structure, and within that cell they started to find ways of storing bits of information they could use to improve the efficiency of their interaction with their environment (possibly even before they had learned to reproduce - these would have maybe been lone immortal cells).  The information would probably not have been stored using DNA, but some simpler process that was sufficient for their purposes.  The trouble is that an immortal cell would only have a limited capacity to grow, and if some of these cells started to grow too much, they would burst.  Some cells would then develop means that, once they grew beyond a certain size, they would develop a partition that would allow each side of the partition to continue processing optimally, but they also then needed to copy the memory storage into both halves of the partition, and so you have memory duplication.  Once the two halves of the cell were partitioned and duplicated, they could then in theory just separate away from each other, and so you now have reproduction.

Only later, as the information needs of the cell increased, I would imagine that they would start using more sophisticated means of storing that information, and then they developed RNA, and later DNA, as an efficient means of storing information.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 19:07:45
Ugh. My sister was doing a project on RNAi and all that rubbish. I almost fainted listening to it! Some of it was quite fascinating though.

And yes, I really do wonder where this "DNA" started. Maybe humans just had it within them since the beginning. But how?
Title: What Am I?
Post by: paul.fr on 11/04/2007 19:11:25
george, give me time to make it all up [;D]



So where was the DNA created?


at the beginning of time, they were among the early and most primative of...whats the word...things!, during their evolution they had the need to infect others for protection from the elements and predators.

at some point they lost the ability to reproduce naturally and had to have their host do it for them.

The only place where we know DNA is created is within a living cell (not even viruses are capable of manufacturing DNA - they have to use another living organism to manufacture DNA - this is one reason why most biologists would not regard viruses as a living entity).

The trouble is that cells require DNA to instruct them how to build the machinery to create DNA, and DNA requires the cell to get created - very much a chicken and egg situation.


that is true for "the now" but way back in the "long ago" it was not true. the DNA had already affected evolution and as a survival technique had evolved to such an extent that all living cells needed the DNA.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 19:13:24
Errr..Paul. Could you make that any easier for a 13 year old to understand please [:)]
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 11/04/2007 19:29:47
And yes, I really do wonder where this "DNA" started. Maybe humans just had it within them since the beginning. But how?

The issue of humans is fairly straight forward - humans are very modern, and have inherited DNA from their ape ancestors, who inherited their DNA from whatever mammal preceded the first ape, and back to the first mammal, and then back to the first animal, and then back to the first bacteria.

The real question has to be how the first bacteria came about.

Modern humans are only somewhere between 100,000 and 250,000 years old.  The first bacteria go back around 4.5 billion years ago.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 19:33:28
And yes, I really do wonder where this "DNA" started. Maybe humans just had it within them since the beginning. But how?

The issue of humans is fairly straight forward - humans are very modern, and have inherited DNA from their ape ancestors, who inherited their DNA from whatever mammal preceded the first ape, and back to the first mammal, and then back to the first animal, and then back to the first bacteria.

The real question has to be how the first bacteria came about.

Modern humans are only somewhere between 100,000 and 250,000 years old.  The first bacteria go back around 4.5 billion years ago.

We have evolved from apes. Why are there still apes and monkeys and chimpanzees and orang-utans still our there today?
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 11/04/2007 19:46:54

So where was the DNA created?


at the beginning of time, they were among the early and most primitive of...whats the word...things!, during their evolution they had the need to infect others for protection from the elements and predators.

at some point they lost the ability to reproduce naturally and had to have their host do it for them.


I am not talking about reproduction - reproduction assumes there is something there to be reproduced - where was it produced first of all.

If the first DNA was naturally produced in the environment, it should still be possible to produce it.

In any case, the problem with reproduction is that the reason why DNA has to exist within a cell in order to reproduce is that it needs to contain all of its building blocks within a confined space in order to put them all together.  If the various building blocks are left just to float free in the sea (or wherever), they will not be able to be constrained close by to build the DNA - so one must have a cell wall in order to contain the processes within the cell (this is apart from protecting those processes from environmental hazards).

The only place where we know DNA is created is within a living cell (not even viruses are capable of manufacturing DNA - they have to use another living organism to manufacture DNA - this is one reason why most biologists would not regard viruses as a living entity).

The trouble is that cells require DNA to instruct them how to build the machinery to create DNA, and DNA requires the cell to get created - very much a chicken and egg situation.


that is true for "the now" but way back in the "long ago" it was not true. the DNA had already affected evolution and as a survival technique had evolved to such an extent that all living cells needed the DNA.


But DNA is not a living entity - DNA does nothing - it is proteins that do most of the work.

As I said, DNA is the the memory that containers the software - you still need the processing units to interpret that software - that is true for computers, and it is true for everything else.

DNA is not an enzyme, and cannot act as an enzyme, and without enzymes (in living organisms) you have no work done.

If you are going to speculate that there might have been some genetic storage mechanism that predates DNA that could simultaneously perform the role of memory storage and enzymatic action (maybe some sophisticated form of prion), that might be possible, but that substance is not, and cannot be, DNA.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 11/04/2007 19:56:57
We have evolved from apes. Why are there still apes and monkeys and chimpanzees and orang-utans still our there today?

Apes covers a wide family of animals, and there is no reason why there should not be a number of members of the same family living at the same time (after all, there are lots of different types of rodents alive today - nobody questions why more than one type of rodents is alive at once, so why should there be any reason to question why there is more than one type of ape or monkey alive).

A species survives if it can find a niche in the environment where it can live.  One would not normally expect two closely related animals sharing the same niche (and even chimpanzees and gorillas are generally not found in the same regions, and where they do exist together with humans, they do tend to become under threat from human incursion, and risk extinction - but where they and humans live in separate environments, there is no competition between them, and they can both survive).

Incidentally, the type of ape that humans originally descended from is no longer alive today - all the apes we see in the world today are modern types.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 20:40:30
We have evolved from apes. Why are there still apes and monkeys and chimpanzees and orang-utans still our there today?

Apes covers a wide family of animals, and there is no reason why there should not be a number of members of the same family living at the same time (after all, there are lots of different types of rodents alive today - nobody questions why more than one type of rodents is alive at once, so why should there be any reason to question why there is more than one type of ape or monkey alive).

A species survives if it can find a niche in the environment where it can live.  One would not normally expect two closely related animals sharing the same niche (and even chimpanzees and gorillas are generally not found in the same regions, and where they do exist together with humans, they do tend to become under threat from human incursion, and risk extinction - but where they and humans live in separate environments, there is no competition between them, and they can both survive).

Incidentally, the type of ape that humans originally descended from is no longer alive today - all the apes we see in the world today are modern types.

Yes, but why is the modern type of apes, not as developed as us? Why are they slower in development and evolution than us? What makes them different? And thanks btw, for your information above [:)]
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 11/04/2007 21:17:58
Yes, but why is the modern type of apes, not as developed as us? Why are they slower in development and evolution than us? What makes them different? And thanks btw, for your information above [:)]

What do you mean by 'slower in development'?

Biologically, they develop as fast as we do, but they developed to fit into their niche, not into our niche.

We are increasing finding that other apes (and even other animals) are capable of using tools, and doing many of the things that we thought were uniquely human.

Apes are certainly better at climbing trees, and have more acute senses that humans - so why should they be considered inferior.

What has made humans special is not the human animal, but human society, and the way humans have been able to cooperate in their thousands and even millions.  We have combined the intellect of an ape with the social complexity of an insect.

Until very recently, this allowed humans some advantage, but as human society has become ever more competent, the advantage it has given humans has been enormous, and this is why so many other species of animals are now being threatened with extinction under competition from human society.

In past millennia, humans were simply not capable of either competing with chimpanzees effectively within their forest niche, nor were we yet able to change the forest into an environment in which we could compete better.  Over recent time, we have started cutting back the forests and turning them into the kind of grassland that humans were originally designed to inhabit, and so are indeed threatening to be the only great ape left on the planet.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 21:21:21
Yes, but why is the modern type of apes, not as developed as us? Why are they slower in development and evolution than us? What makes them different? And thanks btw, for your information above [:)]

What do you mean by 'slower in development'?

Biologically, they develop as fast as we do, but they developed to fit into their niche, not into our niche.

We are increasing finding that other apes (and even other animals) are capable of using tools, and doing many of the things that we thought were uniquely human.

Apes are certainly better at climbing trees, and have more acute senses that humans - so why should they be considered inferior.

What has made humans special is not the human animal, but human society, and the way humans have been able to cooperate in their thousands and even millions.  We have combined the intellect of an ape with the social complexity of an insect.

Until very recently, this allowed humans some advantage, but as human society has become ever more competent, the advantage it has given humans has been enormous, and this is why so many other species of animals are now being threatened with extinction under competition from human society.

In past millennia, humans were simply not capable of either competing with chimpanzees effectively within their forest niche, nor were we yet able to change the forest into an environment in which we could compete better.  Over recent time, we have started cutting back the forests and turning them into the kind of grassland that humans were originally designed to inhabit, and so are indeed threatening to be the only great ape left on the planet.

Hi George again, and thanks again. Apparently 97% of an ape's genes is the same as humans. Does that 3% make such a difference to the way humans have been able to cooperate?
Title: What Am I?
Post by: paul.fr on 11/04/2007 21:49:04

Hi George again, and thanks again. Apparently 97% of an ape's genes is the same as humans. Does that 3% make such a difference to the way humans have been able to cooperate?

but that 3 percent, if thats what it is, is so huge. people often cite small percentages..we are only so many percent away from a banana etc but forget that the gulf is massive.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 21:54:11

Hi George again, and thanks again. Apparently 97% of an ape's genes is the same as humans. Does that 3% make such a difference to the way humans have been able to cooperate?

but that 3 percent, if thats what it is, is so huge. people often cite small percentages..we are only so many percent away from a banana etc but forget that the gulf is massive.

True.. I wonder what that 3% of genes contain though?... Also, apparently we're about 50% the same genes as flies.

BTW, I'm a full member with 104 posts in one day! [:P]
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Hadrian on 11/04/2007 22:00:06
Another way to look at it is you are a part of the memory of the one single event the birth of our universe
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 11/04/2007 22:06:57
Hi George again, and thanks again. Apparently 97% of an ape's genes is the same as humans. Does that 3% make such a difference to the way humans have been able to cooperate?

97% of an ape is the same as a human (technically, many biologists would say humans are a species of ape).

It has been said that we share 50% of our genes with a banana.

But, looking at an ape, it has two arms, two legs, a heart, and basically all of the same organs as a human (as do almost all mammals).  There are differences in the size of different organs, and differences in their exact shapes, but essentially the underlying design is much the same.

When you get down to a cellular level, again, the underlying cell activity is substantially the same, although the slight differences that do exist can have dramatic differences in outcome.

Although we may have a similar number of genes, they are actually arranged slightly differently, in that humans have one less pair of chromosomes than the other great apes (two of the original chromosomes pairs became fused into one larger chromosome pair, so the same genes might exist, but they are located differently, and so may behave differently).

Even if we look at the functioning of the human brain - most of it is still doing fairly fairly mundane stuff, like learning to walk upright, interpret vision, and smells.  Other apes might have a bit more of their brain dedicated to smell, while humans have a little bit more dedicated to producing complex sounds and processing language (even chimps can process language, and have been taught to communicate using complex grammar by use of a keyboard - although this is not to say that they can use language to the same degree as humans - I don't think we yet have the answer to that).

The differences are very small, but those small differences can sometimes have dramatic differences in outcome.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 11/04/2007 22:09:24
Hi George again, and thanks again. Apparently 97% of an ape's genes is the same as humans. Does that 3% make such a difference to the way humans have been able to cooperate?

97% of an ape is the same as a human (technically, many biologists would say humans are a species of ape).

It has been said that we share 50% of our genes with a banana.

But, looking at an ape, it has two arms, two legs, a heart, and basically all of the same organs as a human (as do almost all mammals).  There are differences in the size of different organs, and differences in their exact shapes, but essentially the underlying design is much the same.

When you get down to a cellular level, again, the underlying cell activity is substantially the same, although the slight differences that do exist can have dramatic differences in outcome.

Although we may have a similar number of genes, they are actually arranged slightly differently, in that humans have one less pair of chromosomes than the other great apes (two of the original chromosomes pairs became fused into one larger chromosome pair, so the same genes might exist, but they are located differently, and so may behave differently).

Even if we look at the functioning of the human brain - most of it is still doing fairly fairly mundane stuff, like learning to walk upright, interpret vision, and smells.  Other apes might have a bit more of their brain dedicated to smell, while humans have a little bit more dedicated to producing complex sounds and processing language (even chimps can process language, and have been taught to communicate using complex grammar by use of a keyboard - although this is not to say that they can use language to the same degree as humans - I don't think we yet have the answer to that).

The differences are very small, but those small differences can sometimes have dramatic differences in outcome.

Hey George, thanks for that. Cleared my minds up a bit, because the 97% of genes thing got me confuzzled! Anyway, I've got to go for today. I hope to start the conversation tomorrow again. Thanks for all today =)
Title: What Am I?
Post by: neilep on 11/04/2007 22:32:01
I was wondering exactly what I was? We're made up of billions of cells. Am I just a bunch of cells? Or am I SEAN? Or am I DNA's? Exactly what am I?

You are Sean !!

I'm the one with the identity crisis....I think I'm a sheep !!
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Hadrian on 11/04/2007 22:43:19
I was wondering exactly what I was? We're made up of billions of cells. Am I just a bunch of cells? Or am I SEAN? Or am I DNA's? Exactly what am I?

You are Sean !!

I'm the one with the identity crisis....I think I'm a sheep !!


but you are a sheep..................LOL


Title: What Am I?
Post by: neilep on 11/04/2007 23:03:38
I was wondering exactly what I was? We're made up of billions of cells. Am I just a bunch of cells? Or am I SEAN? Or am I DNA's? Exactly what am I?

You are Sean !!

I'm the one with the identity crisis....I think I'm a sheep !!


but you are a sheep..................LOL




LOL...yes...yes..I am.......!!..baaaa baaaaaa !!!

Hadrian is great
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 12/04/2007 00:27:30
I was wondering exactly what I was? We're made up of billions of cells. Am I just a bunch of cells? Or am I SEAN? Or am I DNA's? Exactly what am I?

You are Sean !!

I'm the one with the identity crisis....I think I'm a sheep !!


but you are a sheep..................LOL




LOL...yes...yes..I am.......!!..baaaa baaaaaa !!!

Hadrian is great

Haha, Neil, your great [:P]

Loving this site so much at the moment!

And Neil, thanks for identifying me as Sean, unlike some confusing DNAs lol
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 12/04/2007 10:21:30
Hmm. I had a good night's sleep last night. But I couldn't stop thinking of what I was again, before getting to sleep.

Since I am made up of trillions of DNA's, what does what work? I feel like only one thing, because I have the ability to move my hands, my neck, to see, to taste etc. I feel like the ruler of the cells and DNA. But is this possible? Seeing I AM the DNA?
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 12/04/2007 10:45:35
Since I am made up of trillions of DNA's, what does what work? I feel like only one thing, because I have the ability to move my hands, my neck, to see, to taste etc. I feel like the ruler of the cells and DNA. But is this possible? Seeing I AM the DNA?

But this is why I am saying that you are not the DNA - you use the DNA to store blueprints of how to build another you - but it is only the blueprint, not the physical reality.

If I build a motor car, that motor car has a blueprint, but I don't drive the blueprint, I drive the motor car.  I don't even drive the component parts of the motor car (the seat, or the exhaust pipe, or the spark plug), I drive the totality of it, which requires that it be composed of lots of parts that each perform their own function to create the whole.  So too with the human body - you are composed of lots of component parts, but you are the end result of the interelationship between the component parts, but you are not merely one part of you or another, you are all the bits put together.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 12/04/2007 10:49:27
Since I am made up of trillions of DNA's, what does what work? I feel like only one thing, because I have the ability to move my hands, my neck, to see, to taste etc. I feel like the ruler of the cells and DNA. But is this possible? Seeing I AM the DNA?

But this is why I am saying that you are not the DNA - you use the DNA to store blueprints of how to build another you - but it is only the blueprint, not the physical reality.

If I build a motor car, that motor car has a blueprint, but I don't drive the blueprint, I drive the motor car.  I don't even drive the component parts of the motor car (the seat, or the exhaust pipe, or the spark plug), I drive the totality of it, which requires that it be composed of lots of parts that each perform their own function to create the whole.  So too with the human body - you are composed of lots of component parts, but you are the end result of the interelationship between the component parts, but you are not merely one part of you or another, you are all the bits put together.

Yes, I totally understand what you said. But, by saying that, you are saying that the motor car still works without the driver. Does our body therefore, work without the DNA's?
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 12/04/2007 14:22:07
Ah, I think I am trying to think of it too hard. Maybe if I just think simply, something may just turn up.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 12/04/2007 15:03:52
Yes, I totally understand what you said. But, by saying that, you are saying that the motor car still works without the driver. Does our body therefore, work without the DNA's?

Does a motor car work without a driver?

Some functions of a motor car will work - the engine will keep running.  A motor car cannot drive itself, cannot repair itself, or fill up with fuel on its own, so its ability to function is very limited.

The DNA within a cell is used, amongst other things, to tell a cell to alter what it is doing (i.e. like steering a motor car), and to allow a cell to repair itself.  If the body ceases the ability to utilise the information in the DNA, then the cells will misfunction (crash - although probably more in the sense of a software crash than a car crash), cannot repair themselves, and will quickly die.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 12/04/2007 15:15:54
Yes, well the motor car does not function without it's components.

So do we not function AT ALL without our DNA's? Because from our previous comments, Paul I think suggested that the DNA may have started out as some sort of virus, living in the sea, which needed a revolution and decided to come into our body, in which we have become immuned to it now, and have evolved us.

So does that mean, that we would have been living, even if the Dna hadn't come into our body? Although we wouldn't be living in the same way, like a modern human, we may still be living like an ape, but would we still have lived?

This is just all from assuming that a DNA has come into our bodies as a virus-like form. But I don't think that this is the bestest of all theories so far.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 12/04/2007 16:39:02
Because from our previous comments, Paul I think suggested that the DNA may have started out as some sort of virus, living in the sea, which needed a revolution and decided to come into our body, in which we have become immuned to it now, and have evolved us.

So does that mean, that we would have been living, even if the Dna hadn't come into our body? Although we wouldn't be living in the same way, like a modern human, we may still be living like an ape, but would we still have lived?

This is just all from assuming that a DNA has come into our bodies as a virus-like form. But I don't think that this is the bestest of all theories so far.

Not at all.

As we discussed before, there is not that much difference between an ape and a human, so we all need that DNA equally (even a banana needs its DNA).

Even bacteria need their DNA (which is why we also have viruses that only infect bacteria), so for anything to live without DNA, it must be more primitive than a bacteria.  In fact, bacteria also have a little trick that allows them to exchange DNA between themselves by bundling it up into plasmids.  Plasmids allow one bacteria to teach another bacteria how to become resistant to antibiotics (although clearly they have other purposes as well, since they have been around longer than artificial antibiotics have, but they are a way for bacteria, and possibly higher organisms, to exchange DNA information to teach it new tricks in coping with its environment).
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 12/04/2007 17:02:26
Ah great, that makes it much easier to understand. So.. Can you simply sum up this whole thing? There were various posts suggesting the idea, and I just can't get round the whole thing..
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 12/04/2007 17:59:28
You wish me to summarise all 71 posts  [:o] [;D]
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 12/04/2007 18:02:43
You wish me to summarise all 71 posts  [:o] [;D]

Hmm, pretty much yes. [:D] Or a reasonably, simple, sharp, summary. [:P] Thanks for that! [;)]
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 13/04/2007 11:46:12
Hey George! Where is the summary of 73-pages? [:o]
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Negin -(Universe) on 14/04/2007 17:49:06
Hang on Paul.. a HOST for the Dna? So why does the DNA want to carry on? Again, we are back to square 1. Let's say that we are just ONE Dna? Why does the DNA want to carry on living?
once we die all of our body parts i.e. all the nutrients become part of someone or somthing else so as has been mentioned DNA deffinatly wants to carry on its evolution BUT it is not a living organism just like viruses they are nothing without the host cell. but i guess you could cliam that we become a part of so many other people once we die!!
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 14/04/2007 18:12:17
Erm, I don't see where you are going at. The nutrients becoming part of someone or something else.. That bit [:D]
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Karen W. on 14/04/2007 21:07:20
Food chain starts all over again.. deteriorating soils except we are generally sealed in a casket These days although some caskets are simple wooden boxes that deteriorate quickly. some can be made from titanium and are gaurateed to stay safe from elements forever!!!!
but otherwise what goes into the earth comes back round to the food chain and life goes on..
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Seany on 14/04/2007 21:29:27
Yes.. But DNA's don't do they? It's just the sheer matter of reproduction..
Title: What Am I?
Post by: Karen W. on 15/04/2007 00:46:38
I have no idea I imagine Dna is only reproduced as you said through reproduction.. but me really does not know!
Title: What Am I?
Post by: another_someone on 15/04/2007 01:02:44
once we die all of our body parts i.e. all the nutrients become part of someone or somthing else so as has been mentioned DNA deffinatly wants to carry on its evolution BUT it is not a living organism just like viruses they are nothing without the host cell. but i guess you could cliam that we become a part of so many other people once we die!!

It really depends on what you mean when you say we become part of so many other people?

What is "we"?

Out atoms are spread all over the place.  Most of the organism that initially consume our bodies will be bacteria and maggots etc.  Ofcourse, then other things will consume the bacteria and maggots, and some of those atoms will end up going back into some people somewhere.

DNA is just another set of atoms that will be spread around.

Where you start looking at information, rather than atoms, then you can look at the genes and the memes - and they will be passed on to other people while we are still alive, but will normally outlive the death of our bodies.
Title: What Am I?
Post by: paul.fr on 01/06/2007 21:51:13
Finding apost by Colleen, reminded me of this topic. So i thought i would revive it somewhat.

Well, unbeknown to me. Richard Dawkins, had written a book way back in 1976 called the selfish gene. Here is a quote from the book.

Quote


Was there to be any end to the gradual improvement in the techniques and artifices used by the replicators to ensure their own continuation in the world? There would be plenty of time for their improvement. What weird engines of self-preservation would the millennia bring forth? Four thousand million years on, what was to be the fate of the ancient replicators? They did not die out, for they are the past masters of the survival arts. But do not look for them floating loose in the sea; they gave up that cavalier freedom long ago. Now they swarm in huge colonies, safe inside gigantic lumbering robots, sealed off from the outside world, communicating with it by tortuous indirect routes, manipulating it by remote control. They are in you and me; they created us, body and mind;and their preservation is the ultimate rational for our existence. They have come a long way, those replicators. Now they go by the name of genes,and we are their survival machines.


and

Quote

What is the selfish gene? It is not just one single physical bit of DNA. Just as in the primeval soup, it is all replicas of a particular bit of DNA, distributed throughout the world. If we allow ourselves the licence of talking about genes as if they had conscious aims, always reassuring ourselves that we could translate our sloppy language back into respectable terms if we wanted to, we can ask the question, what is a single selfish gene trying to do? It is trying to get more numerous in the gene pool. Basically it does this by helping to Program the bodies in which it finds itself to survive and to reproduce. But now we are emphasizing that 'it' is a distributed agency, existing in many different individuals at once. The key point of this chapter is that a gene might be able to assist replicas of itself that are sitting in other bodies. If so, this would appear as individual altruism but it would be brought about by gene selfishness. it still seems rather implausible.

Are there any plausible ways in which genes might 'recognize' their copies in other individuals.' ? The answer is yes. It is easy to show that close relatives--kin--have a greater than average chance of sharing genes. It has long been clear that this is why altruism by parents towards their young is so common.

To save the life of a relative who is soon going to die of old age has less of an impact on the gene pool of the future than to save the life of an equally close relative who has the bulk of his life ahead of him.

...individuals can be thought of as life-insurance underwriters. An individual can be expected to invest or risk a certain proportion of his own assets in the life of another individual. He takes into account his relatedness to the other individual, and also whether the individual is a 'good risk' in terms of his life expectancy compared with the insurer's own. Strictly we should say 'reproduction expectancy' rather than 'life expectancy', or to be even more strict, 'general capacity to benefit own genes in the future expectancy'.

Although the parent/child relationship is no closer genetically than the brother/sister relationship, its certainty is greater. It is normally possible to be much more certain who your children are than who your brothers are. And you can be more certain still who you yourself are!

One sometimes hears it said that kin selection is all very well as a theory, but there are few examples of its working in practice. This criticism can only be made by someone who does not understand what kin selection means. The truth is that all examples of child protection and parental care, and all associated bodily organs, milk secreting glands, kangaroo pouches, and so on, are examples of the working in nature of the kin-selection principle. The critics are of course familiar with the widespread existence of parental care, but they fail to understand that parental care is no less an example of kin selection than brother/sister altruism.


what do you think? Genius or what?
Title: What Am I?
Post by: dkv on 18/09/2007 11:29:38
You are instance of Life Experience.
Without experience you are as good as dead.