Naked Science Forum
General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: Eternal Student on 21/07/2021 00:11:57
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Hi.
What has happened to the quality of discussions on this forum?
On a quiet evening we used to be able to read and possibly get involved in some interesting discussions.
At the moment there are perhaps half-a-dozen people using the forum like some sort of mud slinging contest on some social media site. Please don't do this, the only people who care are the people you wouldn't want to be engaging in discussion with anyway.
I'm not certain what this forum can offer but there are a few things that it can not offer:
1. You probably can't change the world here and I'm not sure that you should try.
This forum is interested in promoting free science, and there are other places that are better suited for testing the limits of free speech. [Taken from the Acceptable Usage Policy, https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=8535.0]
2. You are asked to keep discussion friendly and defuse rather than escalate a situation:
If you feel another forum user is using insulting language, seek to calm things down, or if that fails, report the matter to the moderators. Under no circumstances should you seek to trade insults, or make accusatory remarks to that, or any other, forum user. [Also from the A.U.P., link given above]
3. This forum is not a shortcut to publishing a paper in a recognised journal. No one cares if you are the king of this hill because this is not a very important hill anyway. Apologies to the owners and management of this site: I like the website but in all fairness, professionals don't usually check these forum posts in the Monday morning staff meeting.
What does or should this forum offer?
Well that might be worth some discussion here.
One answer I had from a moderator some time ago was essentially "I still don't know" (I can't find the link to that now, sorry).
Maybe some other users would like to see a "homework help" section?
Some people just like the radio show or podcast and want to ask more questions or get more involved.
Maybe some users would like to see a Philosophy and Theology section added.
Why are you here now? What would like to see here? What would you like to take away from your time on the site?
Best wishes to everyone.
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Why are you here now?
I'm bored of watching re-runs of old TV shows and was hoping for some discussion about science.
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LATE EDITING: Not "the best answer" - just a quick way to move this to the top of the thread and update the thing. I might create a survey later but for now, this indicates some likely or possible reasons.
Of the new members that I've noticed this week, it seems that most of them (possibly all of them) are setting up to spam the site (advertise something on the site).
I really wouldn't mind hearing from some people about their reasons for using the site today.
* Did you have a question?
* Were you after some discussion and unable to physically go to a place where others with an interest in science can be found?
* Did you want to help someone else and believe that you have some scientific expertise to offer?
* Are you a moderator or member of staff and are you required to be here?
* Do you feel strongly about some issue (scientific or otherwise) and have a need to talk about and try to influence others. (Examples: Opinions about the over-prescription of antibiotics; Opinions about the current political system)?
* Some other reason.
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Some of the apparently naive questions make me wonder if I really understand the answer, and some of the answers expand my knowledge and open up new areas of study. And I can rely on BC to complain if I get the angle of my commas wrong.
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Hi again.
I've recently found some new "hello" messages in the guest book from some new members. I hope it all goes well for those new members.
I sometimes wonder if scientific forums put off as many people from studying science as they encourage.
This forum isn't actually too bad but even here things can sometimes get unpleasant.
Meanwhile, I've had no replies from other users about why they are here today or what they hoped to take away from their time on the forum. Well, except Alancalverd - thanks Alan but you're a moderator and therefore more or less have to be here and reply to some people sometimes.
Best wishes to everyone.
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I don't habitually browse for trouble - people with much thinner skins than me raise complaints from time to time and I investigate. I do actually enjoy this forum as a substitute for the coffee bar/water cooler/canteen for the self-employed home worker! If anything it's better than those institutions because Spurs supporters, BMW drivers and fans of soap opera have the good manners to conceal the fact.
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I'll bite.
I notice the quality of discussion has gone up with Europa gone. His presence actually kept me from contributing to certain threads.
Of the new members that I've noticed this week, it seems that most of them (possibly all of them) are setting up to spam the site (advertise something on the site).
Yes, especially those who respond with empty content like "Thank you for this information" and other responses demonstrating a lack of reading even the title, let alone a particular post.
I really wouldn't mind hearing from some people about their reasons for using the site today.
* Did you have a question?
I was first dragged here to respond to a thread by another member, who was also posting on a different site where I was at the time.
I have few questions, and most of those I have I post elsewhere since there's nobody here who can answer them reasonably.
Were you after some discussion and unable to physically go to a place where others with an interest in science can be found?
I've never found such a place except in a college dorm. They probably exist, but I also prefer to put more time into my replies, which doesn't work so well with in-person discussions. Forums are far better for what I want, and the record is usually permanent, allowing one to look back on old answers. Alas, my one personal (and brief) discussion with actual Tegmark was on a now defunct site and is no longer accessible.
Did you want to help someone else and believe that you have some scientific expertise to offer?
There's a lot of that, yes. I try to respond mostly to those appearing to seek such help, and not so much to those asserting nonsense. I'm annoyed by how much the trolls are fed on this site.
Are you a moderator or member of staff and are you required to be here?
Chris is probably required in some ways. The rest of us are not, and some go AWOL for years.
Do you feel strongly about some issue (scientific or otherwise) and have a need to talk about and try to influence others.
Nope. I try to correct wrong science if the person seems to desire that, and I might mention my opinions, but I go out of my way not to insist on their correctness or lack of correctness of alternatives. The site isn't about politics, and any discussion going that way tends to bleed away my interest.
I sometimes wonder if scientific forums put off as many people from studying science as they encourage.
It's a good thing if it does. If you go to a forum about X and it puts you off, maybe your studies should be elsewhere. If you find your interest rising the more you discover what all you don't know, then your interest will be reinforced.
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Hi.
Thanks Halc and Alancalverd.
You are both moderators. From what's been said I'm going to assume that you are volunteers rather than salaried staff. Please correct that if required. Obviously, I don't need any details or private information. I'm just re-evaluating my initial statement "Are you a moderator or member of staff and are you required to be here?". I'll assume that you (both) have been talking about what initially brought you to the forum and why you stay.
First of all then, thank you very much for your time. There are only a handfull of users that make for worthwhile and productive discussions here and most of those have the title "moderator".
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I don't habitually browse for trouble
Alancalverd, you do sometimes "cruise for trouble" but it's not your fault. You've always seemed like the engineer among the scientists, taking a no-nonsense approach to most things and wearing your opinions on your sleeve. There is a need for someone such as yourself in a forum. You make well reasoned arguments and usually attempt to engage with the subject raised by others in a helpful way. You're definitely a valuable addition to the team and you can certainly stay. Thank you for your time and attention.
New members and spam, general comments:
There are a hundred different indications of likely spam. This forum seems to take a generous and tolerant stance on spam and I quite like that. I wouldn't like to delete posts too quickly if the users were just struggling to use English or genuinely trying to make their discussions more interesting by linking to YT videos etc.
I notice the quality of discussion has gone up with ****** gone.
I wasn't going to mention any names. There's always a few people causing problems. The main thing is that most people reading the forum posts make judgments based on more sensible criteria than just who shouts the loudest. (Well, I don't know about "most people" but just those whose opinion I might be bothered about). Personally, I dislike rudeness and that tends to make me stop replying or reading some posts. It's not always just words but little emoticon things that appear. I tend to take advice given by Halc on one of the threads where he and I were discussing something: Stop spending too much of your own time answering or engaging with their comments. Drop some replies like "could you explain that or provide a reference?" and get them to do the work. Half the time they won't or can't and you know they're in trouble if they just repeat the same rant.
I sometimes wonder if scientific forums put off as many people from studying science as they encourage.
It's a good thing if it does. If you go to a forum about X and it puts you off, maybe your studies should be elsewhere. If you find your interest rising the more you discover what all you don't know, then your interest will be reinforced.
This bit worries me a little. Obviously some of it is true and perfectly sensible. Obviously some people just aren't going to like science and may find their own abilities lie elsewhere and that's fine. However, that's not the thing that worries me. It's the tendency of some forums to crush the little guys like bugs for no apparent reason other than presumably to make a few members feel bigger or better (something like making yourself look taller by cutting everyone else's legs off). I recommend the alternative point of view. Value contributors to the forum more by the amount they help others and less by the amount of expertise they seem to bring. It would be ideal if they bring both but valuing expertise too much tends to lead to problems more quickly. For example, there's a member called @Zer0 who doesn't get enough recognition. His/her posts are usually harmless and often quite helpful to new members trying to find their way around.
Best wishes, bye for now.
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Clearly, you're talking about me...
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Hi @Pseudoscience-is-malarkey
Actually, no I wasn't talking about you. However, if you are rude then please stop it and I would appreciate that.
More-over, I was making a discussion in very general terms and the only person I mentioned was @Zer0 which I hoped to put in a positive light. Well... and maybe Alancalverd and Halc but they are moderators. The moderators are already recognised as experts in one or more fields and shouldn't be troubled by whatever I say.
Best Wishes to you.
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Does the forum have a policy to deal effectively with trolls who just keep pushing the same antiscientific ideas?
If not, is there any wonder that the quality of discussions could be improved?
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Hi Bored chemist (and everyone),
I'm not a moderator or involved with this website other than being an ordinary member. I'll leave others to answer that question with any facts or details that may be relevant. What follows is a general discussion only.
Obviously, trolls are a problem. I'm not aware of any easy resolution. Don't engage with them too much is the standard advice.
There's a little piece of green text at the bottom right of every forum post:
"Report to moderator".
On a practical level, people can use that and write a brief explanation to the moderator(s). It would seem sensible not to over-use this.
If you want to take some limited action yourself then make sure it is limited action. You could find rules and regulations out of the terms and conditions of this website and quote them in response to the person's posts, for example. It doesn't always help. I've discussed my personal strategy earlier and it's based on something Halc suggested - reduce your own time and work engaged with whatever they are wanting to talk about.
I don't know, Bored Chemist. Just stay safe and let whoever the trolls might be talk to themselves if they want to. The odd comment here and there to guide new members that whatever the trolls are saying may not be the most accurate version of science would probably be useful.
Do you have advice or a good strategy?
Best wishes.
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Do you have advice or a good strategy?
Ban trolls quickly.
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Hi again.
Ban trolls quickly.
Well, OK but what is a troll?
For example, this forum is unusually tolerant of hijacking an existing forum post. I actually think it works quite well here. People find an interesting sideline discussion and no one minds too much. If it does get too far out of hand then someone (moderator?) will split the discussion off into separate threads but that's about all.
In some other scientific forums, moderators would be on you like a tonne of bricks for drifting off topic. I probably would have been banned by now. It's easy to make mistakes and sometimes cause offence. I wouldn't want the moderators to act too quickly.
Best Wishes.
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Hi Eternal
Thank You for your Kind & Polite words Gracious Sir!
🙏
MODS out here... I'll say it again...are Thee Best!
👍
Troll presence used to bother before, Not Anymore.
I learnt from the Others.
Just as out of sight goes out of mind, similarly once outta the mind it simply vanishes from sight.
Don't feed em, Simply ignore em!
Best Policy!
The World is Full of Cranks & Junkies...& There ain't no " Ignore User " option available offline.
😇
If poison irritates & annoys you, take lil doses in moderation...
And someday you'd develop the power of numbness.
Trolls are Banned in a Wink out here.
Trust Mee!
😉
Soo many a times, i get email notifications, but even before i could check on the comment...the Troll disappears out of existence lol
Yaa, one thing thou.
Please do not think of any New Member as an X - TroubleMaker.
We really can't make out the difference.
(Not that anybody does it)
Anti scientific ideology, weirdly, is helpful at times.
I was aware of LIGO.
But someone in some OP questioned the authenticity, practicality, quality control etc etc of the LIGO Experiment.
(I never doubted Scientists)
But Surprisingly, as that Individual kept questioning...his/her questions turned into my questions.
I got Doubts n second thoughts.
🤔
Others Quickly corrected the Individual by providing logical & factual responses.
👍
The Individual was unmoved...but my doubts got cleared.
(It Helped)
Came to know about VIRGO & KAGRA.
Nice to know Others still have questions...& Curious!
👌
What does it matter from where n how we get our answers from.
I'm reminded of an OP questioning possible ways to end the world.
An option available is to end your own self...& The universe shall fade away.
Can mere Thoughts & Ideas of one single individual change the world?
(MayBe)
🤷
P.S. - sorry bout the emoticons.
;)
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Well, OK but what is a troll?
We could start with those who repeatedly make claims which they know are not true and who refuse to address the fact.
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Hi again.
We could start with those who repeatedly make claims which they know are not true and who refuse to address the fact.
Maybe, but most Science teachers do the first half of that sentence and repeat it every year with the new class. Hopefully, they mention once or twice in the year that they are only teaching simple models but it's never mentioned as often as it should be. Every discussion or reply in this forum should probably include a disclaimer, maybe pinned to the bottom of it.
People who refuse to address errors that are pointed out ---> Well, yes that is a problem but there's no short-cut to giving the people time and opportunity.
Psychology is also useful. You could reply to people with comments like "yes, maybe that bit is right" before getting to "this bit seems to be inaccurate" etc.
Best wishes.
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Hi again.
We could start with those who repeatedly make claims which they know are not true and who refuse to address the fact.
Maybe, but most Science teachers do the first half of that sentence and repeat it every year with the new class. Hopefully, they mention once or twice in the year that they are only teaching simple models but it's never mentioned as often as it should be. Every discussion or reply in this forum should probably include a disclaimer, maybe pinned to the bottom of it.
People who refuse to address errors that are pointed out ---> Well, yes that is a problem but there's no short-cut to giving the people time and opportunity.
Psychology is also useful. You could reply to people with comments like "yes, maybe that bit is right" before getting to "this bit seems to be inaccurate" etc.
Best wishes.
There's no meaningful comparison to a science teacher introducing the basics with an incomplete model and a troll repeatedly claiming that all the scientists are liars and his model- which breaks a good few laws of physics is right, is there?
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Hi Bored_Chemist and everyone,
Maybe there's a case for introducing some new features to the forum.
Before thinking of anything original there are some things that other forums do and seem to help:
1. Limit the maximum number of posts for new members, perhaps to 2 per day. This can reduce the ability to spam (advertise) or blanket-bomb every thread with your opinions.
2. Add more sections to the forum. For example, some scientific forums have a Philosophy section. That might have been useful a little while ago when a philosophy paper by Nick Bostrom was being discussed on multiple threads by a user. You never know, they might have chosen to go there or could have been gently persuaded to relocate.
3. Encourage members to go and visit other sections occasionally. In this way the "other sections" don't become nowhere lands where no one goes. How? Firstly hope that people will want to see what is being discussed.
Better than this, make attracting people to each section their (the people who are usually there) own problem. Have a special event each week where people are encouraged to see the section for the first time and join some activity.
Fundamentally most people are writing something on the forum in the hope that someone else will read it. So it's naturally in their interests to encourage new members and new readers.
4. Other stuff - but this post is too long already and I'm sure you have the general idea.
Best Wishes.
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Off Topic.
Ironically Sweet.
Teeny weeny tiny bits of the Universe have come Alive & become Conscious & Aware.
Forming a sort of a neural network.
The Universe trying to rearrange itself.
Seeking ways to function in a logical & meaningful manner.
Introducing new ideas, formulating a cordial structure n building up on positivity.
While at the same time battling against it's own trollish thoughts.
PS - It's like the body is being torn apart, From Order towards Chaos.
But the Mind is struggling to seek harmonious tranquility.
Thanks for all your Positive inputs Eternal.
👍
& Forgive the philosophical rant.
😉
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Hi. It's quiet again today.
Can I push this question again, please? I've only had a handful of replies so far.
Why are YOU using this site today?
I really wouldn't mind hearing from some people about their reasons for using the site today.
* Did you have a question?
* Were you after some discussion and unable to physically go to a place where others with an interest in science can be found?
* Did you want to help someone else and believe that you have some scientific expertise to offer?
* Are you a moderator or member of staff and are you required to be here?
* Do you feel strongly about some issue (scientific or otherwise) and have a need to talk about and try to influence others. (Examples: Opinions about the over-prescription of antibiotics; Opinions about the current political system)?
* Some other reason.
Caution: Don't give away too much personal information. This is the internet and can be seen by everyone.
Best Wishes.
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I think I will agree with BC. Let people do what they do, and let BC, and me, do what we does :) It keeps it alive. TNS used to be even more lively, having a lot of spirited and knowledgeable persons in the beginning, but people dropped off by different reasons. It depends also on the direction of the site, from being something of a 'free for all', to then changing into a site primary meant for answering questions. It killed it somewhat in my opinion. No slight meant for the guys and gals longstanding here, trying for those sensible answers. It's still one of my absolute favorites.
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With the exception of racist and rape jokes, I think anything should be fair game in the Just Chat! section of this forum.
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Hi all.
Thanks for your replies.
Let people do what they do, and let BC, and me, do what we does :)
I'm not in a position to stop anyone doing anything. I'm also quite glad that I don't have to make those decisions.
I think anything should be fair game in the Just Chat! section
Seems perfectly sensible to me.
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I think you may be misunderstanding why I'm asking people why they use this site. I'm not sure what this site actually does or what it's purpose is. Occasionally, I start to form some idea of what it might do but then things change.
The official guidelines and regulations imply that this is primarily a question and answer site - but clearly it isn't. Things are loosely structured as a question but then more general discussions take place and sideline issues frequently take over.
Perhaps I should re-structure the question: What do you (anyone reading this) want or expect when using this website? Also, what do you think the site does at the moment?
Best Wishes.
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True that ES, and I didn't mean that I expected you to want to change it either, except possibly in wishing for a mathematical section :) getting introduced. Got a story about that, coming from my kids as they started to work in a food chain. The manager found himself forced to downsize personnel by the upper echelons. He found it so tough that in the end he included himself in the 'downsizing'. It impressed me a whole lot hearing about him.
Reading " I'm also quite glad that I don't have to make those decisions."
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Veekeepedia is like graffiti on the wall.
Sometimes i can understand, others i can barely read.
& Yaa, at times it's a bit incorrect too.
Dtube is mostly all hocus pocus.
A few good but alot lame.
Goggles only tells u stuff, but it explains not.
This is a cool hip joint for lay folks interested in knowing & understanding Reality.
If the Universe has no purpose, does that make It & Us meaningless?
😇
Ps - The folks who are in the position of making & taking decisions, prapz aren't really the decision makers.
It's like, as u sow, so u reap kinda stuff.
If one decides to jump off a high flyer plane without a parachute, then ideally they can't complain about the ground comin smashin into em!
🤷
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The manager found himself forced to downsize personnel by the upper echelons. He found it so tough that in the end he included himself in the 'downsizing'. It impressed me a whole lot hearing about him.
Like it!
Back in the 1980s the head of the Swedish armed forces was told to reduce his budget by 15%. He replied "Please identify the 15% of Sweden you do not want me to defend."
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Hi.
It's taken me a while to read what you've written, Furious Cat.
This is my summary:
1. You're here in general to gain input and information.
2. You were initially here to get some little questions answered.
3. You're here to represent / Support Australia.
4. You feel that you can contribute something.
Thanks for your time and for that information. That's all perfectly sensible.
There's obviously a lot of other things you said.
I can't really support an attack against the Moderators. I can understand what they do and why. They don't always get it right but that's the same for all of us. Presumably, you also know that they can edit most posts if they felt a need. I've been on other forums where moderators will edit posts and/or just remove them entirely without much justification. Sadly, this isn't some kind of legal system where you can get a fair hearing and have any capability to bring something to an independent tribunal. This is a free to use website and the terms and conditions are set out clearly.
See Forum Acceptable Usage Policy https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=8535.0
10.The moderators are the final arbiter.....
A moderator may choose, where they feel it appropriate for the good order of the forum, that they should themselves edit or delete a post submitted by a forum user.......
In all matters, the moderators' judgement is final....
The moderators are merely volunteers trying their best.....
Summary
There isn't much point trying to offend the moderators. This never was a fair and level playing field to start with and it never claimed to be one. It's just a free to use website.
As forums go, this one is extremely tolerant and liberal (in my opinion).
Best Wishes.