Naked Science Forum
General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: syhprum on 17/01/2019 16:41:14
-
Just what is needed to make work for JLR workers that will be losing their jobs
-
I thought wind was what they do up there now for power ?
-
I see that Anglesey is in Wales, and it is talking about not building a new power station, rather than scrapping an old one...
After Fukushima, the Japanese people have an aversion to nuclear power.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jan/17/hitachi-set-to-scrap-16bn-nuclear-project-anglesey-wales
-
The Liberal Democrats said it was time for the UK to prioritise renewables, batteries and imports over nuclear.
Yes, dear, but how do you charge your batteries on a cold day like today with no wind and very little sunlight? Gas imports from friends like Russia and Saudi Arabia surely can't be politically acceptable, and France is rarely in a position to export electricity as (a) their heavy reliance on nuclear power is rather inflexible and (b) their winter weather is pretty much like ours.
I don't think this is a Japanese aversion to nuclear power, just a failure to agree a price for the job. There are several nukes still operating in Japan with more mothballed units subject to restart applications over the next 5 years. It's an aversion to a major business risk, paid with a currency that is presently very volatile.
Fact is that we need a balance between nukes, unreliables and fossil fuel plant for the foreseeable future, and the French variants on PWRs seem both cheap and reliable, so involvement with the EPR program, whether by Hitachi or EDF, is difficult to justify at this stage.
The answer seems to be a nationalised electricity supply company. It works in France!
-
Yes, dear, but how do you charge your batteries on a cold day like today with no wind and very little sunlight?
The point of the batteries is that you charge them when the power is available.
You will need a lot.
Other options include pumped water energy storage or hydrogen etc.
Incidentally, if the French Nuclear power is "rather inflexible", wouldn't the same problem arise with UK nuclear power?
(And it's true- you essentially can't "throttle" a nuclear reactor*)
So you need some sort of flexible quick to start power plant. One option is gas- you can buy it from those friendly Russians/ Saudis whenever the price is low, and store it
*
Well, you can- that's what they were doing at Chernobyl
-
Thorium is surely the way to go ?
The problem with storage is it takes massive ammounts of infrastructure, on to of what is already alot of infrastructure in the case of photo volcaic solar. Can you imagine storing 6 months worth of hydrogen or batteries for the uk ? The electric mountain in wales is a water storage facility , and it gives you an idea of the ammount of water needed for a small ammount of power.
Yes, dear, but how do you charge your batteries on a cold day like today with no wind and very little sunlight?
The point of the batteries is that you charge them when the power is available.
So you need some sort of flexible quick to start power plant. One option is gas- you can buy it from those friendly Russians/ Saudis whenever the price is low, and store it
How about synthesising gas and petroleum ? Seems alot more economical, no pressure problen and smaller than hydrogen, smaller and more simple than batteries, no gravity needed like water ?
-
no gravity needed like water ?
Where on Earth is the requirement for gravity a problem?
How about synthesising gas and petroleum ? Seems alot more economical
Yes and no.
It's more expensive and wasteful to synthesise more complex molecules.
But it's cheaper in that the consumer already has equipment- cars and cookers- that use hydrocarbon fuels. Can you imagine storing 6 months worth of hydrogen or batteries for the uk ?
No.
But I also can't imagine why we would want to...
-
no gravity needed like water ?
Where on Earth is the requirement for gravity a problem?
having to have a large height drop or large quantity of water released very fast. The electric peak generation reservoirs do not generate electricity for long. Storing lots of water require a large area
How about synthesising gas and petroleum ? Seems alot more economical
Yes and no.
It's more expensive and wasteful to synthesise more complex molecules.
But it's cheaper in that the consumer already has equipment- cars and cookers- that use hydrocarbon fuels
well they have to be better than hydrogen, and lots better than batteries. It would also mean opecs stranglehold was broken, we could become a net exporter of hydrocarbons again. Molten salt seems a good way to store certain solar, what would be the best way to store energy from wind ? Can you imagine storing 6 months worth of hydrogen or batteries for the uk ?
No.
But I also can't imagine why we would want to...
Either 6 months or a massive over capacity in the generation capacity. Long overcast spells will need to be buffered against.
-
Even England doesn't get 6 months of darkness.
-
If you want to rely on wind power in the UK you need to install peak generating capacity of about 5 times average demand, and storage capacity for about 5 days of peak demand. That's just how the wind blows in these islands. Unfortunately windmill installers are under no obligation to provide any storage, but get a subsidy for doing nothing if there is less demand than they are capable of generating at any time.
Just to make life more interesting, if we all switch to electric cars, we will need to double generating and distribution capacity, and if we abandon fossil fuels altogether, we will need 10 - 15 times our current capacity, still with 5 days' storage unless we prop up the system with nukes. And of course we will have to replace our entire fleet of road vehicles, throw out gas and oil domestic heating, find some way of running ships and planes from batteries (you can't put a nuke in a river ferry or an airliner) and convert whatever is left of the rest of industry from laundries to foundries, to run on electric heating.
As for alternative fuels, AFAIK there is no functioning thorium reactor outside of a university laboratory and the prospect of fusion recedes at about 18 months per year. I do like the idea of synthesising liquid fuels from wind electricity, which allows for "organic" growth - you just gradually replace oil and gas with synths without altering your motors and furnaces, and invest smoothly in windmills and synthesisers - the storage and distribution networks already exist at the required capacity.
-
Even England doesn't get 6 months of darkness.
Come now! Every point on every planet (except perhaps Mercury) experiences equal amounts of light and dark. It just happens that, at the poles, they come in 6 month chunks instead of 12 hourly samples.
-
Even England doesn't get 6 months of darkness.
Come now! Every point on every planet (except perhaps Mercury) experiences equal amounts of light and dark. It just happens that, at the poles, they come in 6 month chunks instead of 12 hourly samples.
Not equal intensities. Winter generation has twice the summer capacity, so its either 6 monthsish storage or over capacity.
-
The problem with the building of the Anglesey power station is not fear of a Chernobyl type event that would need a radically new technology but simply one of cost as present sources of power are cheaper at least for the moment.
It seems that in this country we cannot afford to build any infrastructure for the long term such as power stations, railways ,airfields etc due to our system of government all what our leaders care about is the next election
-
Winter generation has twice the summer capacity,
So we build twice as much- because that's obviously much easier than storing 6 months' worth of energy.
Why was this an issue?
-
Even England doesn't get 6 months of darkness.
Come now! Every point on every planet (except perhaps Mercury) experiences equal amounts of light and dark. It just happens that, at the poles, they come in 6 month chunks instead of 12 hourly samples.
Thanks for explaining that you don't understand how few people live at the poles.
-
find some way of running ships and planes from batteries
. I do like the idea of synthesising liquid fuels from wind electricity,
Well, I'm glad you remembered that it means you don't need "some way of running ships and planes from batteries "
-
Winter generation has twice the summer capacity,
So we build twice as much- because that's obviously much easier than storing 6 months' worth of energy.
Why was this an issue?
To cover all undulations in the weather.
You build to an ammount of average use. If the average use is one then you have to build double average use measured by summer generation, plus a safety factor, that gives you peak generation potential in winter somewhere like 5 times average energy use. Like i said we could synthesise alot of petrol at peak times.
-
There's another obvious factor you can bring into play.
Diversity of supply.
It's unlikely that it will simultaneously be cold, dark, drought-ridden and the tide's out all at the same time; and if they are then that's going to be a local phenomenon- so you set up a grid to transfer power from where it's available to where it's needed.Like i said we could synthesise alot of petrol at peak times.
We could synthesise a lot more methanol (in energy terms).
BTW "a lot" is two words.
-
You can't set up pylons to distribute the electricity it would spoil the view of the thatched cottages and might endanger a few rare butterfly's
-
There's another obvious factor you can bring into play.
Diversity of supply.
It's unlikely that it will simultaneously be cold, dark, drought-ridden and the tide's out all at the same time; and if they are then that's going to be a local phenomenon- so you set up a grid to transfer power from where it's available to where it's needed.Like i said we could synthesise alot of petrol at peak times.
We could synthesise a lot more methanol (in energy terms).
BTW "a lot" is two words.
Yes but solar in the uk is not really an efficient option, cloud cover makes it deplete to 10% generation , solar radiation power at anything other than maximum summer angle during summer is also a big factor.
Tidal and hydo dam power are a little too big, lots more dams or lagoons will be needed. When you look into it swansea lagoon isnt great, it is huge and will only generate enough for 130000 homes meaning this is only one of 200 lagoons that would be needed ! Similar with dams.
http://www.tidallagoonpower.com/projects/swansea-bay/
If Britian is known for any weather its the mild overcast drissle we get !
'ALOT' should be one word. Im aways being corrected on it. Thought it was one word for ages so its a habbit.
-
Yes but solar in the uk is not really an efficient option
Why did you think in terms of just a UK grid?
It's sunny down South.
-
I read an interesting article a couple of days ago about a fuel-cell powered recharging point for electric cars. At first glance it seems absurd, but the inventors make the point that unlike mains-powered rechargers (or even electrically-powered petrol pumps) , they don't need a new fixed infrastructure, so can be set up anywhere at all, and huge quantites of hydrogen are generated as waste by all sorts of industries, so the fuel is inherently free.
Nevertheless, you still have the problem of limited energy density in the car batteries and the need for massive capital and energy investment to replace the entire vehicle fleet, most of which is working perfectly well and has a life expectancy of at least 5 years. I think the future fuel will be synthetic diesel made from atmospheric CO2.
-
Yes but solar in the uk is not really an efficient option
Why did you think in terms of just a UK grid?
It's sunny down South.
If your on abot the energy make up in future, the obvious problem is the weather, so 6 months storage again ! The angle of the earth doesnt help. This infrastructure will be redundant during the winter so coupled with massive storage, you will still have to have even more over capacity.
If you think that a small ammount of energy used is electricity we would require alot of solar, and we need that for plants, although we could put the plants inside and grow them under lights I suppose.
Energy use in the United Kingdom stood at 2,249 TWh (193.4 million tonnes of oil equivalent) in 2014.[1] This equates to energy consumption per capita of 34.82 MWh (3.00 tonnes of oil equivalent) compared to a 2010 world average of 21.54 MWh (1.85 tonnes of oil equivalent).[2] Demand for electricity in 2014 was 34.42GW on average[3] (301.7TWh over the year) coming from a total electricity generation of 335.0TWh.[4]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_the_United_Kingdom
-
Yes but solar in the uk is not really an efficient option
Why did you think in terms of just a UK grid?
It's sunny down South.
If your on abot the energy make up in future, the obvious problem is the weather, so 6 months storage again ! The angle of the earth doesnt help. This infrastructure will be redundant during the winter so coupled with massive storage, you will still have to have even more over capacity.
If you think that a small ammount of energy used is electricity we would require alot of solar, and we need that for plants, although we could put the plants inside and grow them under lights I suppose.
Energy use in the United Kingdom stood at 2,249 TWh (193.4 million tonnes of oil equivalent) in 2014.[1] This equates to energy consumption per capita of 34.82 MWh (3.00 tonnes of oil equivalent) compared to a 2010 world average of 21.54 MWh (1.85 tonnes of oil equivalent).[2] Demand for electricity in 2014 was 34.42GW on average[3] (301.7TWh over the year) coming from a total electricity generation of 335.0TWh.[4]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_the_United_Kingdom
You didn't think far enough South.