Naked Science Forum
General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: time-cop on 16/10/2008 11:49:29
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What is going on ? Andrew is advising IBT for everything from a paper cut to an amputated head, does he own the company that makes the little blocks used to raise the bed ? after all he is very precise with his measurments !15 cm here 6.17 inches there ! [::)]
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size depends on the size bed you own I believe and a starting height so it is not just all at once its raised in a couple steps!
I think it is about circulation better circulation and blood flow must be better for most things.. eh.. Talk to Andrew I am sure he would be glad to explain.
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I think that Andrew's writing a book not sure but he might own some company or other.
We will have to find out what he tells us,
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No company selling block or selling anything to do with IBT
As Karen states the height depends on the length of the bed.
Not sure about an amputated head but a paper cut will heal quicker on IBT.
Andrew
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When I visited my newborn grandson in hospital all the baby cots in the hospital were inclined so I believe there must be a valid reason for it.
The incubators were inclined also and by around the same amount.
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Yet they tell mothers to put their babies flat?
Well observed about the incubators and cots.
Thanks
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Andrew perhaps you can explain to others about how IBT came to be, and your struggle to have it recognized as a medical treatment. I know the hows and whys.. but perhaps some of us here seem to be in the dark! Maybe you could post a link to your video to help explain..
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Hi Karen, it's easy to forget that there are people on here who are not familiar with this simple therapy. The video is a good starting point as you suggested. More can be learned by google using "inclined bed thereapy" or indeed my name.
The research began a long time ago now when trying to understand how trees raise water without a pump to great heights. Once this was solved, IBT became the next step to apply the gravity flow system to our own physiology. The first results were varicose vein improvements. We have a study in the medical section of the forum showing how varicose veins rapidly improve without surgery using IBT.
This video shows actual footage of an amazing experiment causing water to flow vertical to 24 metres. Higher has been achieved since, This is more than twice the limit thought to be possible in the physics literature,
This video shows a scaled down version of the larger experiment.
Here we see the density flow and some simple experiments used to explain it.
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Yet they tell mothers to put their babies flat?
Well observed about the incubators and cots.
Thanks
A photo of the occupied incubator at an incline.
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi262.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fii83%2Fbeefake%2Flewis.jpg&hash=ce148563b78dcb205b9c8754a1643a22)
To be honest I took this photo to show it in action as I was surprised to see it. [:)]
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Great photograph, clearly showing the best position for a challenged baby. So why not for all babies? No more cot deaths = no more cot death charities?
The angle looks like five degrees to the horizontal to me or very close. People need to start asking difficult questions to find out why this simple lifesaving common sense approach to nurturing premature and unwell babies is abandoned in the homes of every mother under the very bad advice of a charity that generates a huge amount of wealth from tragedy.
Outspoken? Who else is speaking out for babies that can't speak for themselves?
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=3272.0
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=1084.0
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No more cot deaths = no more cot death charities?
What's this supposed to mean, Andrew?
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It means if cot deaths or any other illness is solved then there is no more need for the charity that collects money for a particular condition. Why? Are you reading more into this Ben?
Perhaps I can add a little more to the statement.
I was told by the senior research advisor at the Foundation For Sudden Infant Death in London, at her home that she believe I had solved sudden infant deaths. If required I can substantiate this because I wrote to her shortly after relating to what she had said on the day and she replied to the letter omitting her reference to this. Do I believe what she said is true? This would require some serious study in order to prove it to be correct and in order to convince parents to adopt the same posture used to protect premature babies who are struggling for survival, it would require a huge dose of common sense, sadly lacking today and replaced frequently with selfish interests.
Quite prepared to take a lie detector test here. Would the doctor who said this be as prepared to take the same test and refute she said it?
If the FFSIDS would like to challenge this please go right ahead and give it your best shot.
Has IBT been tested with newborn babies? Yes it has and to great effect improving their well-being. Why wouldn’t it? It certainly improves the well-being of those premature babies!
No more cot deaths = no more cot death charities?
What's this supposed to mean, Andrew?
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Im sorry i took such a light hearted aproach to this simple therapy, i shall watch this with interest, Ray.
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"If the FFSIDS would like to challenge this please go right ahead and give it your best shot."
I did.
I asked for independantly verified evidence.
As far as I recall you have not provide any.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
You "singing in the wilderness" does no count as data.
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BC You and the likes of you are the reason there is no controlled study evidence!
Anecdotal evidence is good evidence and means far more than a few statistics to people who have a condition that requires some attention.
It may not be accepted by you, but honestly "Am I bothered"
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Ray
Not a problem, used to having this reaction and can understand why people adopt it. It sounds too good to be true, costs nothing so putting a value on it is difficult unless it is thoroughly researched.
Thank you for coming back and taking an interest in this research
Andrew
Im sorry i took such a light hearted aproach to this simple therapy, i shall watch this with interest, Ray.
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Anecdotal evidence is just an excuse for not actually having found real data. The only place anecdote has in science is in initiating further >scientific< research. Scientific conclusions can not be made from anecdote. You should know this.
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Your entitled to your opinion.
This research began reading a complete load of bull in a science book distributed in schools. After ripping the text to bits, it was reassembled into a coherent manner. This was then tested using tubular experiments to see if this too was bull sh1t. It turned out to be reliable when water flowed vertical in a 24 metre elevated tube. Something no one else any where in the world had done before! And fully repeatable, even featured on youtube.
This is not anecdotal evidence! It is a fact and if you doubt that, then you have a problem not me.
Quickly realising that there are implications for this in our own circulation, I began studying human physiology with great interest. Here again reading a huge amount, then after realising that circulation in the body according to the literature was completely sewn up, I decided to put it to the test by tilting a bed by 5 degrees after watching how fluids circulated in a closed loop of tubing running from pillow to foot.
Again nothing anecdotal so far is there?
Then after a mere 4 weeks. Two totally independent people, one who just happened to be a nurse reported their varicose veins had gone flat. Very odd for the nurse considering that she had been taught to raise her legs to ease her veins and indeed had been doing so for many years without success. The other happened to be my wife.
Many more people since have reported varicose veins improving on IBT. Here in the medical forum we are running a study to yet again collect more evidence after predicting that veins would again go down and oedema would again vanish leaving behind nice slim ankles. All this based on a prediction from sound simple, fully repeatable science! Now we have digital photography to aid our study and indeed we can already see the results for ourselves.
So although you say this is anecdotal. It is fully repeatable! The fact that scientists doctors, charities, hospitals, politicians, surgeons can’t be arsed to repeat it does not invalidate it in the slightest. This is just the tip of the iceburg!
S rather than sitting there feeling smug about your post, go try and disprove it or accept that it just might be a little more reliable than you might want to believe it is.
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Actually, new mothers are encouraged to slightly incline the cots of their babies to help when they have chesty coughs etc. I should imagine that babies in incubators have under developed lungs, so the incline (for the reasons stated).
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Andrew, I was merely responding to this post. These are words that came out of your own fingertips!
Anecdotal evidence is good evidence and means far more than a few statistics to people who have a condition that requires some attention.
You can't one minute say your evidence is anecdotal and the next say it's scientific. Which is it?
Stop complaining that other people don't want to verify your hypothesis. The onus is on you to do the heavy work. That includes a fully controlled trial with many participants followed by peer review. A handful of participants is not sufficient for properly demonstrating a phenomenon, and I doubt if you had properly controlled all the known variables which could have interfered with your experiment. No serious investigator of reality would base their conclusions on such tentative findings.
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Sorry Stefan but that statement is true in the sense that the general public can relate to the photographic evidence before during and after than they can to some stats published in a journal on a pay per view basis that is inaccessible to people seeking immediate help for a condition that has a surgery only option slapped on it like varicose veins.
Imagine having serious varicose veins yourself for a moment. Then reading the varicose veins thread, hearing what people are saying, seeing what people are posting and comparing those valuable pictures. Then reading about how this all began, where it is heading, all the negative reactions from people who should be sitting up and taking note but fail miserably to do so. Then exercising your right to either go for surgery or put some blocks under your bed to see what happens in 4 weeks time.
Which evidence are you going to choose? Anecdotal or surgical based evidence?
BTW I agree that a controlled study is the way forward. This online study is being closely monitored by people who are in a position to test the theory using your “controlled methods. “
But let us remember why controlled methods are in place first.
Controls are put in place to determine if there is a small chance that any particular drug is useful or not. Usually involving many people, 2-3% changes one way or another can be identifiable. If a study shows a massive improvement like ours on varicose veins, it becomes unnecessary for further continuation of the study and the application becomes mainstream.
On the other had, we have a flat bed. No controlled study has been deemed necessary for the bed you and most of the human population sleep in, so first of all may I ask why we feel that an inclined bed requires a controlled study when the flat alternative bed does not?
Considering a huge amount of the worlds population ends up on their flat death bed and add to this the many study’s that have been performed in a controlled environment to determine how the human body begins to shut down with prolonged flat bed rest and indeed head down bed rest. NASA currently offering $5,000 a month for people prepared to stay on a bed tilted what looks like 5 degrees head down just to induce the degenerative effects compared to what happens to the body in space, one begins to doubt the whole scientific principle, especially when NASA targets youngsters for the study by adding World Of Warcraft as entertainment for those unsuspecting, trusting people.
Remember I want a controlled study to take place for IBT and have been fighting for this since 1994. So please don’t think for one minute that I have not done my fair share of boot camp with this theory.
Following Chris’s Advice, I have a meeting with the Exeter and Torbay Ethics committee to iron this problem out.
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Do you have evidence to back the assertion that "So although you say this is anecdotal. It is fully repeatable!"?
"On the other had, we have a flat bed. No controlled study has been deemed necessary for the bed you and most of the human population sleep in, so first of all may I ask why we feel that an inclined bed requires a controlled study when the flat alternative bed does not?"
Against what would we test it?
If we test flat vs inclined the test is exactly the same as testing the inclined one against the flat one.
Since there's no way to do what you have suggested (testing the flat bed in isolation) I think it's reasonable not to do it.
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The evidence is happening right now in the varicose veins thread. More and more people over time will find this study and test the theory to provide even more evidence. It is fully repeatable. The science is correct relating to how density changes alter the pressure inside the vessels.
There is no other explanation for how veins improve by sleeping with your head higher than your feet at a five-degree angle. If there was it would be clearly stated and the fact that it is not stated anywhere in the literature that this will happen proves the point.
Here’s a prediction I made on another thread that require investigation.
Heart rate decreases by 10-12 beats per minute sleeping on an inclined bed at a five degree angle to the horizontal compared to sleeping on a flat bed in humans and dogs.
Respiration rate decreases by 3-5 breaths per minute under the same postural controls with both humans and dogs.
This can be determined as soon as the subject is asleep. Now this study would not require being controlled as the subjects are asleep so no possible placebo influence, especially as the subject group could be dogs, cats, or any other animal for that matter.
Very simple, zero cost observation.
Now can you tell me why no one to date as tested this? One would think this would be fascinating for people working in the medical profession and it would provide some stimulating PHD material.
WHY HAS THIS NOT BEEN INVESTIGATED? Now if scientists doctors, nurses, surgeons, anaesthetists, phd students, and the like cannot /will not test this simple fascinating contradiction to human and animal physiology , one can begin to realise why tilting the bed over a longer period to study varicose veins and oedema has not been forthcoming.
Andrew K Fletcher