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  4. Does matter of astronomical bodies in Solar System fit in a hot-air balloon?
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Does matter of astronomical bodies in Solar System fit in a hot-air balloon?

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Offline clueless (OP)

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Does matter of astronomical bodies in Solar System fit in a hot-air balloon?
« on: 07/09/2021 15:44:15 »
Inspired by  Anthony Peake, who suggests that most of atom is empty space, the question in the title stands, considering ALL matter of astronomical bodies in our Solar System; that is to say, I guess I need a hot-air balloon in a SF story of mine to make a point; but it doesn't necessarily have to be a "darn" hot-air balloon, perhaps something else, maybe a fruit. Thanks a lot. 
« Last Edit: 07/09/2021 16:46:04 by clueless »
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Offline Janus

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Re: Does matter of astronomical bodies in Solar System fit in a hot-air balloon?
« Reply #1 on: 07/09/2021 16:46:15 »
If you took the Sun (which makes up the vast majority of the Solar system's mass), and compressed it down until it was essentially nuclei rubbing up against nuclei, it would still fill a sphere over 11 km in radius.
Jupiter, the next largest body would form a sphere ~1 km in radius.
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Offline yor_on

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Re: Does matter of astronomical bodies in Solar System fit in a hot-air balloon?
« Reply #2 on: 08/09/2021 09:52:34 »
Prove it!

At a distance, please.
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Offline clueless (OP)

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Re: Does matter of astronomical bodies in Solar System fit in a hot-air balloon?
« Reply #3 on: 08/09/2021 14:41:31 »
This is, actually, important, that is to say, I'm ambitiously writing a SF book; so please be precise, if You can do just that, or else I'll end up like Dan Brown who wrote The Da Vinci Code: rich and miserable. Yes. That is very interesting information about the Sun and the planet, and I'm thinking about using it; but - is it 100% authentic? How about at least 70%?

P.S. I am still having trouble of letting the hot-air balloon go, so if you can think of a certain astronomical body that would indeed (more or less) fit in a hot-air balloon, I'd be greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: 08/09/2021 14:45:51 by clueless »
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Offline Origin

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Re: Does matter of astronomical bodies in Solar System fit in a hot-air balloon?
« Reply #4 on: 08/09/2021 14:53:30 »
Quote from: clueless on 08/09/2021 14:41:31
P.S. I am still having trouble of letting the hot-air balloon go, so if you can think of a certain astronomical body that would indeed (more or less) fit in a hot-air balloon, I'd be greatly appreciated.
You can figure it out yourself rather easily knowing that the density of a neutron star is c83c8ca4c9899ea4210fb0d50b3df616.gif
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Offline Janus

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Re: Does matter of astronomical bodies in Solar System fit in a hot-air balloon?
« Reply #5 on: 08/09/2021 16:33:40 »
Quote from: clueless on 08/09/2021 14:41:31
This is, actually, important, that is to say, I'm ambitiously writing a SF book; so please be precise, if You can do just that, or else I'll end up like Dan Brown who wrote The Da Vinci Code: rich and miserable. Yes. That is very interesting information about the Sun and the planet, and I'm thinking about using it; but - is it 100% authentic? How about at least 70%?

P.S. I am still having trouble of letting the hot-air balloon go, so if you can think of a certain astronomical body that would indeed (more or less) fit in a hot-air balloon, I'd be greatly appreciated.
The density of an atomic nucleus is 3e17 kg/m^3,  So it is a simple matter to take the mass of any body, like the Sun, and work out its size if it had that density.  Is it 100% accurate?  No, it would actually be an underestimate in size.  This is because the type of body that could physically form if you compressed the Sun down would be a neutron star, and the average density of it isn't quite as high as that of a nucleus. 
If we use the neutron star density value as given by Origin, and estimate the volume of a hot air balloon as being the equivalent of a sphere with a radius of 3m, then (roughly), the largest mass it could contain would be ~7e18 kg,  There are a number of moons in our solar system that are smaller than that.
But now we come up against the practicality of such a venture. Even if you could compress a body of that mass down to a sphere 3m in radius, you now would have to deal with the fact that the surface gravity would be in the millions of g.  If you tried to surround it with a hot air balloon, the material of the balloon would be crushed to the point that it would no longer maintain its molecular structure and would become part of the surface of the object itself.
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Offline Kryptid

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Re: Does matter of astronomical bodies in Solar System fit in a hot-air balloon?
« Reply #6 on: 08/09/2021 16:34:17 »
Quote from: Origin on 08/09/2021 14:53:30
You can figure it out yourself rather easily knowing that the density of a neutron star is c83c8ca4c9899ea4210fb0d50b3df616.gif

I'll go ahead and do that.

Radius of sphere from volume = 3√((3 x volume)/(4 x pi))

Mass of the Sun = 1.9885 x 1030 kilograms

vSun = (1.9885 x 1030 kilograms)/(1017 kilograms per cubic meter)
vSun = 1.9885 x 1013 cubic meters

rSun = 3√((3 x (1.9885 x 1013 cubic meters)/(4 x pi))
rSun = 16.807 kilometers

Mass of Jupiter = 1.8982 x 1027 kilograms

vJupiter = (1.8982 x 1027 kilograms)/(1017 kilograms per cubic meter)
vJupiter = 1.8982 x 1010 cubic meters

rJupiter ​= 3√((3 x (1.8982 x 1010 cubic meters)/(4 x pi))
rJupiter = 1.655 kilometers

Mass of Earth = 5.9724 x 1024 kilograms

vEarth = (5.9724 x 1024 kilograms)/(1017 kilograms per cubic meter)
vEarth = 5.9724 x 107 cubic meters

rEarth ​= 3√((3 x (5.9724 x 107 cubic meters)/(4 x pi))
rEarth = 242.5 meters

Mass of Moon = 7.342 x 1022 kilograms

vMoon = (7.342 x 1022 kilograms)/(1017 kilograms per cubic meter)
vMoon = 7.342 x 105 cubic meters

rMoon ​= 3√((3 x (7.342 x 105 cubic meters)/(4 x pi))
rMoon = 55.964 meters

Mass of Ceres = 9.3835 x 1020 kilograms

vCeres = (9.3835 x 1020 kilograms)/(1017 kilograms per cubic meter)
vCeres = 9.3835 x 103 cubic meters

rCeres ​= 3√((3 x (9.3835 x 103 cubic meters)/(4 x pi))
rCeres = 13.085 meters
« Last Edit: 08/09/2021 17:08:38 by Kryptid »
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Offline Eternal Student

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Re: Does matter of astronomical bodies in Solar System fit in a hot-air balloon?
« Reply #7 on: 09/09/2021 23:02:32 »
Hi everyone,

Quote from: clueless on 08/09/2021 14:41:31
I'm ambitiously writing a SF book; so please be precise
   Well how fantastic or science fiction do you want to go, in that book?
    The earlier posts have talked about the most dense forms of matter we know about,   e.g.  Neutron stars.

    However, there do seem to be objects in space that are over-dense Neutron stars  or  what could be described as totally collapsed objects.    These things are of course, Black Holes.
    Let's assume that to be remotely sensible, the surface of your balloon must be placed around the outside of the event horizon of a black hole.   Then we just need to see how much mass we can fit into a black hole with that Schwarzschild radius.

We're going to assume a simple, non-charged and non-rotating black hole  -  A Schwarzschild Black Hole.
     The Schwarzschild radius is given by:

809bb76d84737942fcd3c1683dd39d32.gif     

Where  G = universal gravitational constant;    c=  speed of light;   M = a parameter that we can think of as the mass contained in the black hole (if we try to keep everything as simple as possible).

   I would do the calculations but that would be just tedious.   There's an online calculator tool you can use,  here's the link to one of those:
https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/schwarzschild-radius
   I don't know if it's actually reliable, just that I'm too lazy to use my own calculator and a pencil.

Anyway,  let's take the example Kryptid gave earlier,   for an asteroid like Ceres, it would have a radius of 13m if we compressed it into a Neutron star.  If we compressed it until a black hole formed,  the Schwarschild radius would only be 0.000001 m,    which is quite a bit smaller.

   Conversely, if you allowed a balloon of radius 13m  then we can stuff    8 x 1027  Kg   into a black hole to have a Schwarzschild radius of that size.   That's about 1010  objects like Ceres,  or  4 planets like Jupiter.

Best Wishes.
« Last Edit: 09/09/2021 23:09:04 by Eternal Student »
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Offline Zer0

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Re: Does matter of astronomical bodies in Solar System fit in a hot-air balloon?
« Reply #8 on: 10/09/2021 15:15:13 »
Hmm... perhaps a stoopid thought...

But is there a possibility the Balloon could be made out of Dark Matter Fabric?

& Possibly propelled by Dark Energy?

Ps - Dark Matter has the Power of slowing down Galaxies.
Dark Energy has the Potential of ripping apart the Cosmos.

Why rely on lame matter, when you got exotic matter at your disposal.
Newyz, All thee Best!!!
👍
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Offline Janus

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Re: Does matter of astronomical bodies in Solar System fit in a hot-air balloon?
« Reply #9 on: 10/09/2021 16:24:30 »
Quote from: Zer0 on 10/09/2021 15:15:13
Hmm... perhaps a stoopid thought...

But is there a possibility the Balloon could be made out of Dark Matter Fabric?

& Possibly propelled by Dark Energy?

Ps - Dark Matter has the Power of slowing down Galaxies.
Dark Energy has the Potential of ripping apart the Cosmos.

Why rely on lame matter, when you got exotic matter at your disposal.
Newyz, All thee Best!!!
👍
Dark matter is "dark" because it doesn't interact electromagnetically (and thus doesn't interact with electromagnetic radiation.) You need electromagnetic interaction to make a tightly bound structure like a fabric. DM can't be made into "things"  like balloons.
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Re: Does matter of astronomical bodies in Solar System fit in a hot-air balloon?
« Reply #10 on: 11/09/2021 18:33:12 »
Thanks all for your fine thoughts and reasoning. To paraphrase One (a drone from Star Trek), I'll need time to assimilate this information. But I'm certain that I'll use some of what two members propose.
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Offline Zer0

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Re: Does matter of astronomical bodies in Solar System fit in a hot-air balloon?
« Reply #11 on: 17/09/2021 20:34:33 »
Hi J
😊

Mmm...but Dark Matter interacts with Normal Matter.
Like by providing it extra mass?

Why can't a balloon cloud of Dark Matter engulf a small solar system.

& Did that Chandra Yan from NASA really detect Dark Matter clouds interacting with it's ownself?
🤔

U know, i feel like the Universe in itself is like a balloon.
Won't Dare use the term GOD...
But sumthin or sumone seems to be really blowing hard onnit yaa!
🤭
(Wish the was an alternate hypothesis which could negate Dark matter & energy n just explain the Universe in a simpler format.)
Anyways, Thanks!
🍭
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Offline Halc

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Re: Does matter of astronomical bodies in Solar System fit in a hot-air balloon?
« Reply #12 on: 17/09/2021 21:59:42 »
Quote from: Zer0 on 17/09/2021 20:34:33
but Dark Matter interacts with Normal Matter.
Like by providing it extra mass?
Dark matter does not provide anything with extra mass any more than a planet adds mass to the star it orbits. But the mass of the dark matter affects spacetime the same as ordinary matter, so all matter, dark or not, is attracted gravitationally to each other.

Quote
Why can't a balloon cloud of Dark Matter engulf a small solar system.
Dark matter doesn't clump into clouds with local density. To do that it would need to have to slow down as it fell into its own gravity well, and it can't slow down if it can't interact. So the speed of any particular bit of dark matter tends to be greater than the escape velocity of any local object it happens to find itself in the vicinity of. The deeper the gravity well, the more likely that dark matter will enter but then leave it. Regular matter tends to remain behind because it is slowed by friction.

Quote
Wish the was an alternate hypothesis which could negate Dark matter & energy n just explain the Universe in a simpler format.
Be glad it's complicated. The simple universes don't have complicated things like us in them.
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Offline Petrochemicals

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Re: Does matter of astronomical bodies in Solar System fit in a hot-air balloon?
« Reply #13 on: 18/09/2021 10:40:47 »
It may do. Just depends how much energy you remove from the constituent parts of matter. A standard A bomb does not release much of the nuclear binding energy in uranium, that itself is only a very small percent of the total binding energy known to be in the constituent parts.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/110524-densest-matter-created-lhc-alice-big-bang-space-science

Quark gluon plasma is very dense but also quite hot.
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