Naked Science Forum
Life Sciences => Physiology & Medicine => Topic started by: Europan Ocean on 11/06/2013 16:49:31
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Dr Peter Fenwick a neuropsychiatrist has studied the brain and psyche and unconsciousness as when dying. A thousand cases and foreign ones. And has amazing things to say about the mind in view of this.
17 Minute video here:
What do you think?
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around the time of death, shapes may be seen leaving the body ...
The only conspicuous things leaving the body around the time of death are urine and faeces.
I’m rather concerned that someone with such poor judgement may have had a say in when violent criminally-insane patients are released from Broadmoor Hospital (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4PmjKn1zPE#t=80s).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadmoor_Hospital
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Well, I suppose open mindedness can be seen as poor judgement. But to matriculate to study medicine and have the responsibility of becoming Dr, you need about 90% in maths, chemistry, physics and English... or more. Then good passes of 8-9 years of modules full time, then brain surgery and psychiatry majors for this Dr. So he is fully learned and well tested, and experienced from age.
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... to matriculate to study medicine and have the responsibility of becoming Dr, you need about 90% in maths, chemistry, physics and English... or more. Then good passes of 8-9 years of modules full time, then brain surgery and psychiatry majors for this Dr. So he is fully learned and well tested, and experienced from age.
In science experimental-evidence determines whether a hypothesis is true, not the number of qualifications of the person promulgating it ...
If “shapes” did leave human bodies at death here would be plenty of independent film&video evidence of his alleged phenomenon.
Human beings are part of the animal kingdom …
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenakedscientists.com%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D19200.0%3Battach%3D6152%3Bimage%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenakedscientists.com%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D19200.0%3Battach%3D6152%3Bimage&hash=1b97d0bc4a72e0cea26ae076396c8475)
(one embryo is a cat the other human (http://www.talkreason.org/articles/section2.cfm#ontogeny))
If this “shapes-leaving-body-at-death” phenomenon did occur in humans it should occur in other animals too, providing billions more opportunities* for his alleged phenomenon to be captured on film and video.
[* e.g. slaughterhouses ]
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Yes I understand about experiment proving theory, but the Doctor's responsibility was questioned.
I have heard of the phenomena of dogs knowing when their master's have died from childhood, and the one of people by death beds seeing figures as well from some time ago. I don't know why it is not visible commonly, should I ask the Dr?
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Yes I understand about experiment proving theory, but the Doctor's responsibility was questioned.
I questioned Dr Fenwick’s judgement : if he sincerely believes in souls/afterlife without plenty of hard evidence, then his scientific judgement is non-existent.
I didn’t use the word “responsibility”, but yes he is irresponsible in promoting he idea of afterlife which is not harmless : it could encourage some to commit suicide (https://www.google.com/search?q=suicide+leading+cause+of+death), and take others with them , ( and assists “mediums (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_%28spirituality%29)” in their scam ).
I have heard of the phenomena of dogs knowing when their master's have died …
How does the dog demonstrate this knowledge ?, does it send a condolence card ?,
or change its FaceBook status to “looking for a new owner” ? [:)]
The dog’s behaviour may change because, unusually, it has not seen its pack-leader (its owner) for some time, it may also conform to the subdued behaviour of other superior pack members around it (the human family members) who are aware of the death. No telepathy/afterlife required.
… I don't know why it is not visible commonly, should I ask the Dr?
Please do. He looks very long-in-the-tooth in the video : if he is no longer in the land of the living you should still be able to communicate with him via a medium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_%28spirituality%29) if he is correct about the existence of an afterlife.
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Afterlife after suicide is reported as a bad experience from the revived.
A Polish man experienced the afterlife bliss in his NDE and did desire to go back to the light, his attempts were corrected by his wife, and on one occasion he lay on the side to stress his weak heart, saw the light but did not go up, instead got a warning.
Dr Karl Jansen who last I heard works in London, uses Ketamine Psychedelic Therapy, which he invented and pioneers along with other Psychiatrists around the world. Ketamine causes much the same effect and an NDE and in the right dose is medicinal.
Can you give me examples of afterlife dangers? I have heard of Solar Temple.
NDEs are a bit of a hobby for me.
I heard anecdotes of pets howling at the times of their master's death. I don't think they are telepathic.
I'll ask him about mediums but I doubt mediums while not doubting NDEs.
I think the soul is a mystery like electricity or the brain 800 years ago.
Text: Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the 21st Century
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A Polish man experienced the afterlife bliss in his NDE and did desire to go back to the light
NDE bliss [aka euphoria] is explainable physiologically : brain hypoxia ...
symptoms include ... a feeling of euphoria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoxia_%28medical%29
The tunnel of light is also explicable by the same mechanism.
I heard anecdotes of pets howling at the times of their master's death.
If the dog is usually by its master's side every-day, then a supernatural explanation is not required as to why it howls in an attempt to be reunited with its pack-leader whom it cannot find. [ My neighbour's dog goes nuts if it's owner leaves it for more than a couple of hours ].
I'll ask him about mediums but I doubt mediums while not doubting NDEs.
I must admit I didn't see the entire 17 minute video , (there's only so much bullsh!t I can watch in one sitting) , but in the first 5 minutes Dr F twice alleges communication occur between the living and the dead, and that only some people can see apparitions of the dead, which is what mediums claim.
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What Dr Fenwick goes on to say is that his patients often reported experiences when at life's end that struck him as important. So he is collecting data. He finds the experiences can't be explained by brain function, mechanisms, alone.
Here is some info on Ketamine Psychedelic Therapy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9250944
Hope people see both sides before committing such as by reading Irreducible Mind or other such books or by watching debates, McGrath or Lennox...
Or listen to an interview with Dr Eben Alexander. Neurosurgeon who suffered from meningitis.
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What Dr Fenwick goes on to say is that his patients often reported experiences when at life's end that struck him as important. So he is collecting data. He find the experiences can't be explained by brain function, mechanisms, alone.
Here is some info on Ketamine Psychedelic Therapy ...
That NDE or OOBE can be reproduced by Ketamine (http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/02/ketamine-drug-hallucinations/) is evidence that they are purely physiological phenomena, rather than supernatural.
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Hope people see both sides before committing such as by reading Irreducible Mind or other such books or by watching debates, McGrath or Lennox...
Some of us have seen both sides.
On one side there is science and rationality.
On the other side there is wishful thinking and irrationality.
remember that there are two possible reasons why "He find the experiences can't be explained by brain function, mechanisms, alone."
One is that no explanation exists, and the other is that he hasn't found it- possibly because he hasn't really looked).
In this case we know that there is an explanation (we know this because RD has cited it).
So we conclude that the Dr's observations or reasoning are faulty.
Which brings us back to "I’m rather concerned that someone with such poor judgement may have had a say in when violent criminally-insane patients are released from Broadmoor Hospital."
I share RD's concerns.
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Open mindedness is not folly.
An old man who cares for his patients instead of being condescending, giving them a slap on the back and saying "She'll be right mate, they are only hallucinations." he sounds good to me. And unlike us, he is tried and tested and is an emeritus.
I compare the mind issue with dark matter. It was not known of until recently and is still mysterious, and an accepted mystery matter.
There are people who were atheists, one who held the view as out of his field of expertise university professor, that the brain alone caused consciousness. And he almost died, returned to life and testified of a vivid reality that he was sure was more than a dream and lost his wife and friends. He then forecast the fall of the Berlin wall, from 1985. He is Howard Storm.
Another one, this time in the field of neuroscience and brain Dr, himself became unconscious in a meningitis infection, rendering his brain to a state of complete shutdown under observation. He saw a person in that time and recalled her and drew her picture carefully after recovery to full health.
This Dr Eben Alexander was adopted, and did research, and found his family that gave him up, and saw a picture of his late sister, and recognized her from his OBE. This Dr Eben went from atheist and scientism to dualist. He recommends alternate science books like Irreducible Mind and Dr Pim Van Lommel's text. The earlier developed in a university.
http://www.amazon.com/Irreducible-Mind-Toward-Psychology-Century/dp/1442202068
So Dr Eben has the same degree of good judgement and rationality as yourselves or more considering his qualifications.
I don't ever press people towards scientism, it is not that good.
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... There are people who were atheists, one who held the view as out of his field of expertise university professor [of art department at Northern Kentucky University], that the brain alone caused consciousness ... He is Howard Storm.
Whose book on the subject is available for about a tenner [ ebook a fiver ] ...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/l/B0034Q9JOU?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1
About the same price as Dr Fenwick's book which he was plugging on the video (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Dying-Peter-Fenwick/dp/0826499236).
[ Kerching (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kerching) ]
I don't ever press people towards scientism, it is not that good.
I don't go out of my way to tell children there is no Santa Claus , it would upset some of them, but it is true.
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I'll let you know when the time comes.