Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Chemistry => Topic started by: Zichichi on 28/09/2004 17:28:23
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To put metallic sodium and water in a piston engine
can mean to have the best power......
Ships, tractors etc...can use it very well......
Can we change today oil with sodium and spirit(ethanol)?
Sugar cane, for example, can get to us sodium and spirit..
[:)][8D]
nothing is created and nothing is destroyed
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Yes, you can use sodium as a power source, however, there are a few problems. In order to use the sodium, you need to process it and the energy required to process it comes from fossil fuels. Therefore, you actually need a greater net amount of energy than you would by just using oil.
Also, sodium is a solid. The only way you could use sodium in engines is if you powderised it first. An oxide layer forms on sodium and so, the majority of the powder will become sodium oxide due to the massive increase in surface area when powderising. Sodium oxide has already released much of its energy and is pretty much useless.
Sodium is hard to store. If there is a leak and water is mixed in with the sodium storage area then there is the possibility of an explosion.
Also, sodium reacted with water creates sodium hydroxide (aq) which is a strong alkali and will corrode the engine very quickly! It would also be dangerous if it leaked. Unlike water, this cannot just be released into the environment as you would find the road surfaces wearing out very quickly, as well as severe damage to plants and animals! The solution would have to be stored onboard which would be pretty inconvenient.
The best fuel solution is solar powered electrolysis of water to produce hydrogren as this is 100% environmentally friendly!
"I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."
-Edgar Allan Poe
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Sodium fusion temperature is approximately 98°C, do you know that?
Sodium is practically liquid or solid.
It's not easy an explosion with sodium, it's surest of all fuel...........
There are some resistant materials but it has to be proved.......
[:)][8D]
nothing is created and nothing is destroyed
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quote:
Originally posted by Zichichi
Sodium fusion temperature is approximately 98°C, do you know that?
Sodium is practically liquid or solid.
It's not easy an explosion with sodium, it's surest of all fuel...........
There are some resistant materials but it has to be proved.......
[:)][8D]
nothing is created and nothing is destroyed
Well, you could use liquid sodium, but u'd need to heat it up first. Also, sodium does explode easily. Chuck a brazil nut sized chunk into a fish tank - trust me, it explodes!
There's still the problem of storing sodium hydroxide and also producing the sodium in the first place. Really, anything which isn't a gas or liquid at room temperature is not suited to being a modern fuel.
"I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."
-Edgar Allan Poe
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I know reaction sodium-water, it's not an explosive reaction,
it's a violent reaction that is different.......
Other elements like rb and cs have an explosive reaction with
water.
It has the purpose of heat up the water rapidly,
until 200°C-300°C... in a piston engine........
[:)][8D]
nothing is created and nothing is destroyed
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With small amounts of sodium, the reaction is violent but not explosive. Have you ever tried throwing a piece of sodium (say brazil nut sized) into a fish tank? Conduct this experiment and if the fish tank does not explode then i am wrong.
I know a person who, like you, thought sodium would just react violently with water. He conducted this experiment in class for his pupils and found that the reaction was indeed explosive, and ended up with fragments of glass all over the floor.
But still, why use sodium when surely hydrogen would be far better?
"I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."
-Edgar Allan Poe
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I think a solid-liquid fuel is better for tractors, trucks,
bus, ships etc..... and it can have the best power..........
The explosion(in the experiment) has been caused from hydrogen that is produced in this reaction.
It has need to attention but it is not very dangerous.......
[:)][8D]
nothing is created and nothing is destroyed
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The power in the sodium reaction is apparent to anyone with an elementary knowledge of the periodic table. Lithium and sodium are both candidates for electrochemical batteries. They are both being pursued. In the case of sodium, the only practical battery at this time is the so-called molten salt battery, which uses liquid sodium at 500 degrees C. It has so much capacity, and such a high charge and discharge rate that utilities have pursued it for load-leveling applications. Nevertheless, the molten salt battery must be charged, usually by fossil fuels.
To be a primary energy source, a material must be plentiful, and easy to process into fuel. To date, the only serious materials are hydrocarbon fuels, and nuclear fuels. Sodium does not form into reservoirs that can be tapped. It is locked into compounds, such as sodium chloride, that require the addition of energy to separate. While that may someday make it useful for energy storage, it will never be a primary fuel because it does not appear in nature in metallic form.
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It's elementary chemistry, it's not apparent!.........
Sodium, in this reaction, surely heats up water until 200°C-300°C.....therefore it surely creates a great power(the best power!) if it reacts in a piston engine...........
I will prove to make it.....[:D]
nothing is created and nothing is destroyed
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Yes, but the problem is that you need to use fossil fuels to create the sodium from its compounds.
Also, its highly impractical - your engine will not last long - it will be subject to corrosion from Sodium Hydroxide, rapid heating and cooling (therefore expansion and contraction) and also large pressures (heating water to 200-300 deg C will increase the pressure greatly).
You can make one if you want. You may have a job designing how it will work as well as finding out that sodium as a fuel will cost a rediculous amount per mile.
"I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."
-Edgar Allan Poe
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Hmmm, if you can't smoke at the gas pumps, then why would you want to putter around in a tank of sodium where our atmosphere is so dense with water? what if you lost control and plunged into the water hazard on the back 9? Kaboom!!!
Hey, maybe nitro glycerine would make a good fuel!
Just a thought
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Sodium-water is not an explosive reaction like gas-oxygen.
I have experimented it at school about hydrogen production
from metallic sodium.
It's very interesting to produce sodium from biomass and salt...........
In Italy barley can be produced in every season of the year and it
can produce a lot of ethanol(1,5 tons/ha)and a lot of biomass....
Barley, in Italy, can be an energy coltivation and it has a vegetative period very small...........
Italy with barley coltivation can have sodium for its tractors and
ethanol for its cars..........[:D]
[:)][8D]
nothing is created and nothing is destroyed
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If you still think sodium-water reaction is not explosive:
http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Stories/011.2/
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This site's hilarious !
The Videos resemble something out of the Blair Witch project, but great entertainment. Nice link Jay.
Chris
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
- Groucho Marx
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Hydrogen is produced in this reaction and it's surely the
cause of explosion.
If liquid sodium is gradually put in the water then hydrogen that
is produced don't cause explosion but it only heats up the water temperature...........
I am convinced about a possible realization of a sodium engine. [:D]
[:)][8D]
nothing is created and nothing is destroyed
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When you're creating significant amounts of hydrogen in the presence of oxygen by an exothermic reaction, you're just asking for trouble. I don't care how careful you are in the lab, putting something like this into a vehicle or device for the average consumer (who is a complete git, usually) is a bad idea.
Glad you liked the link, Chris. It gave me wicked ideas. =)
This message brought to you by The Council of People Who Are Sick of Seeing More People
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Good good - glad someone has proof that sodium-water can be an explosive reaction!
Zichichi - you can try if you want, but there are so many impracticalities with a sodium engine...
"I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."
-Edgar Allan Poe
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Surely I will prove it...... [^]
It's surely a nature force. [;)]...
nothing is created and nothing is destroyed
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I was reading the Chemical History of the Candle by Micael Farady which is brilliant, and he makes the point that a fuel that produces a solid waste product is a right pain as it won't get out of the way in a civilzed way. So even if you sorted out the other problems your cylinder would just gum up with Sodium Oxide or Hydroxide or whatever. Oh and if you think that Lead in fuel was a problem I hate to think what the reation woudl be to sodium hydroxide fumes coming out of your exhaust pipe.
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Also, sodium reacted with water creates sodium hydroxide (aq) which is a strong alkali and will corrode the engine very quickly! It would also be dangerous if it leaked. Unlike water, this cannot just be released into the environment as you would find the road surfaces wearing out very quickly, as well as severe damage to plants and animals! The solution would have to be stored onboard which would be pretty inconvenient.
lets say you created sodium hydroxide by the above reaction (water and sodium) after that, sodium hydroxide solution with water can be kept in a plastic tank where a reactive metal (like aluminum) is added. The result is hydrogen... very cheap hydrogen with very little energy consumption... The rest is obvious, the hydrogen acn power a fuel cell or directly an internal combustion engine for cars and boats.
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Any alkali metal is a strong reactant. All the metals are energy rich, which is why they corrode, and are never found in nature in their metallic state. (Except gold, which is non-reactive.) Therefor, all you people are missing the point. Sodium, or lithium, or any other metal cannot be a primary fuel because it only occurs in nature in its oxide form, and all the energy you can get from it when you react it must be added during the refining process.
The one possible exception is hydrogen, which can be removed from hydrocarbon fuels and used as a fuel, however, even hydrogen needs the addition of heat to break the hydro-carbon bond, just not a lot of heat. This is as close as you get to replacing hydro-carbon fuels with metallic fuels.
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In a hundred years time, with no oil and all electrical power produced in giant fusion plants on the moon, you may be glad of a sodium engine to power your personal helipack[:)]
Difficult practically though, pellets of gunpowder is about the nearest match I could find on a quick search.
http://www.automobileindia.com/Timeline/time1.html
Come to think of it, gunpowder is probably a much better bet, fuel already mixed with oxidant and most of the products gaseous.
Sorry Zichichi, I've joined the sceptics!
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Hmm, I think you are all missing some important points.
1. the heat of the reaction is probabily liqudizing some of the chunk and this is causing the splitting.
2. the proper use of such concentrated energy mass would be in a battery like device to produce a slow, steady stream of energy. The system would have to be self contained and produce salt NaCl as the final product. The sodium would produce hydrogen which would be reacted with oxygen to produce electricty. Not necessarly efficent, but it beats towing along a tank of H2 if water is available. See my suggestions on the reason for using hydrogen cars in another thread.
3. And what if the device is in an accident?
David
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But in the future we will be less concerned with the safety and efficiency of a device and more with how much fun it is.
This will be partly as a result of advances in medical science but mainly because all the proper geeks will have removed themeselves from the gene pool through cold fusion experiments.
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Surely there are some varnishes that are heat resistant and alkaline resistant.
I think the problem is another:
Does hydrogen give problems?
Some experiments can give us the answer.
God can give to us 4 new
earth scientifically from Jupiter...
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Personally I would rather be sitting on a tank of hydrogen, than one of sodium - at least the hydrogen isn't going to hurt you if it comes into contact with you and it will disperse quickly, the sodium will give you serious burns on contact, and has a tendancy to explode on contact with water produceing caustic byproducts and to top it all hydrogen!