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  4. Is there a universal moral standard?
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Is there a universal moral standard?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2580 on: 09/05/2022 10:04:27 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 08/05/2022 15:21:14
Aha! So invasion is an inevitable consequence of third-party attitudes,
It's inevitable conclusion of your own reasoning.

Quote from: alancalverd on 08/05/2022 15:21:14
and self defence is a matter of choice.
They can choose to flee. They can choose to resist. Their decision depends on many factors to consider. Let's hear what their reasonings are.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2581 on: 09/05/2022 15:09:16 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/05/2022 10:04:27
They can choose to flee.
Not if they are killed, surrounded and starved, enslaved, or males of military age.  What fairyland do you inhabit?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2582 on: 10/05/2022 12:10:13 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 09/05/2022 15:09:16
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/05/2022 10:04:27
They can choose to flee.
Not if they are killed, surrounded and starved, enslaved, or males of military age.  What fairyland do you inhabit?
Some of them have already fled the country and became refugees. Are you living under a rock?
If something is beyond someone's control, such as their genetics, or their cultural background, it can't be used to evaluate their moral standard. Being invaded  has different moral burden than invading neighbor.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2583 on: 10/05/2022 12:14:21 »
So the civilians currently trapped in the Mariupol steelworks have only themselves to blame? And the soldiers defending themselves are as immoral as the scum attacking them? Get real, HY.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2584 on: 11/05/2022 12:07:07 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 10/05/2022 12:14:21
So the civilians currently trapped in the Mariupol steelworks have only themselves to blame? And the soldiers defending themselves are as immoral as the scum attacking them? Get real, HY.

I think it's a good time for you to learn about strawman fallacy.
Quote
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
A straw man (sometimes written as strawman) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.[1] A common form of setting up such a straw man is by use of the notorious formula "so what you're saying is ... ?", converting the argument to be challenged into an obviously absurd distortion. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.[2][3] Straw man arguments have been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly regarding highly charged emotional subjects.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2585 on: 04/06/2022 16:32:09 »
Quote
https://www.brainyquote.com/topics/politics-quotes
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.
Plato

Freedom isn't free. It shouldn't be a bragging point that 'Oh, I don't get involved in politics,' as if that makes someone cleaner. No, that makes you derelict of duty in a republic. Liars and panderers in government would have a much harder time of it if so many people didn't insist on their right to remain ignorant and blindly agreeable.
Bill Maher

I'd like to emphasize that embracing a wrong moral value will bring unwanted consequences. It's in contrast with what moral relativism says.

« Last Edit: 04/06/2022 16:35:05 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2586 on: 04/06/2022 16:34:11 »


We usually call something immoral by pointing out short term gains while sacrificing longer term goals. The short term gain here is money from gun sales. The longer term goal is the peaceful lives of their next generations.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2587 on: 04/06/2022 22:37:22 »
Quote
Second Amendment, amendment to the Constitution of the United States, adopted in 1791 as part of the Bill of Rights, that provided a constitutional check on congressional power under Article I Section 8 to organize, arm, and discipline the federal militia. The Second Amendment reads, “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

Nothing wrong with that. Many other countries have a well-regulated militia, with compulsory gun training and ownership in the case of at least Norway and Switzerland, and very little gun crime. What the USA does not have is a well-regulated militia.

I've met many enthusiastic proponents of "home defence" in the USA but never been met at the door by any of them carrying a gun, so there is no evidence of sincerity or consistency. A pistol under the pillow might be useful in the middle of the night, but an AK47 at short range and short notice is more of an encumbrance, and if you ever managed to hit a deer with it, you'd end up with bone splinters in hamburger, not prime venison, so it's hardly a sporting gun.   

The answer to mass shootings is surely to note that the sole function of an automatic weapon is to kill people, so whenever anyone asks to buy such a weapon, he should be required to list and inform those he intends to kill.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2588 on: 05/06/2022 06:54:58 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 04/06/2022 22:37:22
The answer to mass shootings is surely to note that the sole function of an automatic weapon is to kill people, so whenever anyone asks to buy such a weapon, he should be required to list and inform those he intends to kill.
That's a good idea.

Unwillingness to look for the real cause of a problem prevents us from solving it.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2589 on: 09/06/2022 23:41:27 »
Quote
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/06/politics/gun-mass-shootings-politicians-poll/index.html

As Congress considers, again, the possibility of moving a package of gun control reforms, a number from a new CBS News/YouGov poll jumped out at me as evidence of why solving America's gun violence problem is so hard.

It's this: 44% of Republicans said that mass shootings are something we have to accept as part of a free society. (A majority of Republicans -- 56% -- said mass shootings are something we can prevent and stop if we really tried.)
That number is a striking departure from how the country as a whole views the issue. More than 7 in 10 Americans (72%) said that mass shootings could be prevented if we really tried, while just 28% said they were part of living in a free society.

Consider what those Republicans are saying: There is no policy -- or cultural -- solution to the problem of mass shootings. Instead, it is a necessary evil of living in a free society.
Is mass shootings really a necessary evil of living in a free society? How to justify who should be the victims?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2590 on: 10/06/2022 00:18:36 »
The only freedoms that clearly distinguish the USA from other western societies are the freedom to become bankrupt if you are ill, and the freedom to be shot by anyone at any time. I often feel sad that so many of my friends and colleagues have to live in such an intellectually impoverished society.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2591 on: 13/06/2022 06:19:59 »
Full Semester Ethics Course *Condensed* into One Lecture

Quote
This is a philosophy video lecture that compresses a course that normally takes 15 weeks into just one video. Or really, it only manages to condense half of that course into 22 minutes.

What is the morally right thing to do? Is there some moral law that applies to everyone, or is morality relative in some way? And what’s so good about morality anyway? To answer these questions, we read Plato, Aristotle, Hobbes, Hume, Bentham, Locke, Kant, Nietzsche, Nozick, Singer, O’Neill and others. This is an introductory level philosophy course. Students do not need any prior experience with philosophy.

For more of my videos: https://www.jeffreykaplan.org/youtube
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2592 on: 13/06/2022 10:20:45 »
The test we use in my medical research ethics committee is "would the man on the bus approve if we did it to him?".  Clearly the  answer depends on whether he is fit and healthy or at death's door, so the concept of true universality is meaningless.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2593 on: 13/06/2022 14:24:27 »

Quote from: alancalverd on 13/06/2022 10:20:45
The test we use in my medical research ethics committee is "would the man on the bus approve if we did it to him?".  Clearly the  answer depends on whether he is fit and healthy or at death's door, so the concept of true universality is meaningless.
The fact that a value depends on something doesn't necessarily disprove its universality.
The magnitude of gravitational force depends on the mass of the object. It doesn't proof that there's no universal law of gravitation.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2594 on: 14/06/2022 03:19:24 »
If your mind is confined by individualistic perspective bubble, everything becomes meaningless when you don't exist and conscious, like before you were born and after you die. But any successful conscious being will think and act from the perspective of the future versions of themselves, which are expected to be better at preserving consciousness. Individualistic confinement and generational succession are products of evolutionary process which were necessary as scaffoldings to build better versions of our ancestors, which emerged in the absence of better methods.

Quote
https://twitter.com/evolutionofgods/status/1536201030601699328?t=iABtr52mgWblDcJwFQmMLA&s=03
In dark ages people were best guided by religion, as in a pitch-black night a blind man is the best guide; he knows the roads and paths better than a man who can see. When daylight comes, however, it is foolish to use blind old men as guides.'
« Last Edit: 25/06/2022 01:20:05 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2595 on: 25/06/2022 01:15:59 »
Another way to distinguish between moral and immoral behaviors is by predicting their impacts on future conscious beings. In general, morally good behaviors make life easier for future conscious beings. Immoral behaviors make life harder for future conscious beings.
The disagreements can emanate from differences of model parameters used to make the prediction, including who will be more likely to exist as the future conscious beings.
« Last Edit: 25/06/2022 11:38:03 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2596 on: 25/06/2022 11:21:11 »
Suppose I could have prevented the birth of Pol Pot. Serious negative impact on one known conscious being, major benefit to everyone else. Moral or immoral?

Abortion of unwanted pregnancies:moral or immoral?

Contraception?

Spaying a pet dog?

Ah, philosophy. Ask a question with no defined parameters, then get paid for not answering it.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2597 on: 25/06/2022 11:34:55 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 25/06/2022 11:21:11
Suppose I could have prevented the birth of Pol Pot. Serious negative impact on one known conscious being, major benefit to everyone else. Moral or immoral?

How did you predict what the unborn Pol Pot would do?
« Last Edit: 25/06/2022 11:38:47 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2598 on: 25/06/2022 11:40:54 »
The same way that you predict the effect of any action on generations yet unborn. Inspired guesswork.

Look at Russia and China in 1900. What could benefit present and future generations more than a communist revolution?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2599 on: 25/06/2022 11:45:14 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 25/06/2022 11:21:11
Abortion of unwanted pregnancies:moral or immoral?

Contraception?

Spaying a pet dog?
The moral judgement should be done case by case, considering what's known to the moral agents, and the most likely consequences from the actions/behaviors, and how they would affect the life of future conscious beings.
Is pushing a red button moral/immoral?
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