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  1. Naked Science Forum
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  3. Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology
  4. Why is light bent whent it passes a massive body in the space?
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Why is light bent whent it passes a massive body in the space?

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Offline Kryptid

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Re: Why is light bent whent it passes a massive body in the space?
« Reply #40 on: 15/02/2021 21:45:08 »
Quote from: charles1948 on 15/02/2021 19:17:38
The point I was making is this: refraction of light through the lens-shaped dust clouds which surround distant galaxies, could explain the image displacement effects which we observe from Earth.

There is no such lens-shaped dust cloud around the Sun, so that can't be the explanation for the observed deflection of light around it. Einstein predicted the correct value for gravitational lensing before it was even measured, so "fudging the numbers" can't be invoked to explain how he got it right.

Quote from: charles1948 on 15/02/2021 20:17:44
I probably have a wider range of knowledge, across all fields, than anyone else on this forum.

Even if that was true, that doesn't make you right about everything. In this particular case, there is strong evidence that you are wrong.

How about I show the actual math? The equation for gravitational lensing as predicted by general relativity is as follows:

α = (4GM)/(c2r), where

α = angle of deflection,
G = the gravitational constant
M = the mass of the object in question,
c = the speed of light, and
r = the distance at which the lensing is measured

So we put in the parameters for the Sun:

α = (4GM)/(c2r)
α = (4 x (6.674 x 10−11 m3⋅kg−1⋅s−2) x (1.9885 x 1030 kg))/((299,792,458 m/s)2) x (695,700,000 m))
α = ((2.669 x 10-10) x (1.9885 x 1030))/((299,792,458)2) x (695,700,000))
α = (5.3084996 x 1020)/((299,792,458)2) x (695,700,000))
α = (5.3084996 x 1020)/((8.9875518 x 1016) x (695,700,000))
α = (5.3084996 x 1020)/(6.2526398 x 1025)
α = 0.00000849001 radians (1.75119 arc-seconds)

The original observations testing gravitational lensing back in 1919 measured deflections of 1.98+0.16 and 1.61+0.3 arc-seconds. That puts an experimental range of 1.31 to 2.14 arc-seconds, which the predicted result is very close to the middle of. The Newtonian prediction of 0.85 arc-seconds is well outside of the experimentally-determined range. Since then, Einstein's prediction has been confirmed to within 0.02%.
« Last Edit: 15/02/2021 23:20:29 by Kryptid »
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Offline Hayseed

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Re: Why is light bent whent it passes a massive body in the space?
« Reply #41 on: 16/02/2021 00:46:47 »
There are several ways to "bend" something.  One change in direction can be a bend.....so a bounce can be called a bend.  A sequential series of bounces, can also be called a bend. 

And a continuous change in direction can be called a bend.   I call it a bow, to tell the difference between them.  These are different dynamics.  Different motions.

I have never liked the term bend.....when it comes to a straw in water.  I think of it as a displaced reflection.

Plain water at equal temp, has the same density.  At least, in an aquarium.  The sugar gives the water a density gradient with the same temp.  This density gradient does not bounce......it continuously bows the light.


Do you believe that the atmosphere of the sun has a density gradient?   It's a plasma gradient.  We are not very familiar with plasma gradients......like other gradients, because plasma is reactive.  It's not neutral.  I expect the bow to be different with a reactive gradient.  A twist in polarity might easily cause a bow.

Do you think that there could be a plasma gradient around a galaxy?

Do our galaxy bubbles have a density gradient?

Evidence is subjective, that's why we have so much of it.



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Offline Kryptid

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Re: Why is light bent whent it passes a massive body in the space?
« Reply #42 on: 16/02/2021 01:59:55 »
Quote from: Hayseed on 16/02/2021 00:46:47
Evidence is subjective

No, it isn't.

Quote from: Hayseed on 16/02/2021 00:46:47
Do you believe that the atmosphere of the sun has a density gradient? 

It does, but the evidence doesn't match up with that being the cause of gravitational lensing (as pointed out before),
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Why is light bent whent it passes a massive body in the space?
« Reply #43 on: 16/02/2021 08:57:50 »
Quote from: Hayseed on 16/02/2021 00:46:47


I have never liked the term bend.....when it comes to a straw in water.  I think of it as a displaced reflection.

Plain water at equal temp, has the same density.  At least, in an aquarium.  The sugar gives the water a density gradient with the same temp.  This density gradient does not bounce......it continuously bows the light.


Do our galaxy bubbles have a density gradient?

It isn't reflected.
Can we stop talking about density?; the parameter that matters is the refractive index.
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Offline chemhat1999

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Re: Why is light bent whent it passes a massive body in the space?
« Reply #44 on: 16/02/2021 11:08:16 »
I am also no big expert on this topic. Just an enthusiast as to how everything in life works. Furhtermore trying to just seek out a logical explanation for almost everything in life  ;D
I recall seeing in a couple of videos on YouTube that light ist bent by objects.
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Offline Janus

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Re: Why is light bent whent it passes a massive body in the space?
« Reply #45 on: 16/02/2021 18:06:44 »
Quote from: chemhat1999 on 16/02/2021 11:08:16
I am also no big expert on this topic. Just an enthusiast as to how everything in life works. Furhtermore trying to just seek out a logical explanation for almost everything in life  ;D
I recall seeing in a couple of videos on YouTube that light ist bent by objects.
Is or isn't? 
also, one needs to be careful when getting information from YouTube videos, as there is a lot of incorrect information out there.
as far as light direction being changed by objects.  There are a few ways this can happen:
Reflection.  Light bounces off the object.
Scattering. light is effected by passing through an object or medium by interacting with the individual particles within it.
Refraction,  The light path direction is changed by passing through the boundary between mediums of different refraction indices. (or through a medium with a changing index of refraction.
Defraction. Light path is spread by passing through a slit or close to the edge of an object

With all of these, with the exception of reflection, the degree of path change is dependent on the wavelength of the light.
Thus, they would produce a measurable separation of the component colors in white light.

With gravitational lensing, you would not see such a separation of colors. The path of all frequencies would be changed equally.

This is where all these alternate explanations for the bending of light as they pass the Sun or distant galaxies fail.  These other suggested mechanisms would produce other noticeable effects in the light that we just don't observe. *

* Plus, in the example of our own Sun, it would be take the greatest of coincidences for these effects to cause the exact amount of bending as predicted for gravitational lensing. 
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Re: Why is light bent whent it passes a massive body in the space?
« Reply #46 on: 17/02/2021 02:38:51 »
When we bowed light, we did not have lasers.  We used a flashlight.  White light.  Bowed white light.  Full of phase and wavelength.

What term do you use to describe the path of light.......that passes into a WIDE boundary interface......AND...... that wide interface has a density gradient?
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Re: Why is light bent whent it passes a massive body in the space?
« Reply #47 on: 17/02/2021 08:54:05 »
Quote from: Hayseed on 17/02/2021 02:38:51
When we bowed light, we did not have lasers.  We used a flashlight.  White light.  Bowed white light.  Full of phase and wavelength.

What term do you use to describe the path of light.......that passes into a WIDE boundary interface......AND...... that wide interface has a density gradient?

GRIN

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gradient-index_optics
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Offline chemhat1999

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Re: Why is light bent whent it passes a massive body in the space?
« Reply #48 on: 17/02/2021 10:41:35 »
Quote from: Janus on 16/02/2021 18:06:44
Quote from: chemhat1999 on 16/02/2021 11:08:16
I am also no big expert on this topic. Just an enthusiast as to how everything in life works. Furhtermore trying to just seek out a logical explanation for almost everything in life  ;D
I recall seeing in a couple of videos on YouTube that light ist bent by objects.
Is or isn't? 
also, one needs to be careful when getting information from YouTube videos, as there is a lot of incorrect information out there.
as far as light direction being changed by objects.  There are a few ways this can happen:
Reflection.  Light bounces off the object.
Scattering. light is effected by passing through an object or medium by interacting with the individual particles within it.
Refraction,  The light path direction is changed by passing through the boundary between mediums of different refraction indices. (or through a medium with a changing index of refraction.
Defraction. Light path is spread by passing through a slit or close to the edge of an object

With all of these, with the exception of reflection, the degree of path change is dependent on the wavelength of the light.
Thus, they would produce a measurable separation of the component colors in white light.

With gravitational lensing, you would not see such a separation of colors. The path of all frequencies would be changed equally.

This is where all these alternate explanations for the bending of light as they pass the Sun or distant galaxies fail.  These other suggested mechanisms would produce other noticeable effects in the light that we just don't observe. *

* Plus, in the example of our own Sun, it would be take the greatest of coincidences for these effects to cause the exact amount of bending as predicted for gravitational lensing.

Thank you for the heads up!!
That does shed some light on this topic  ;D ;D
About the YouTube stuff: Yeah, I know... a lot of Information is kind of meh and not percise. I tend to watch VSauce a lot. Their channels seems to be trustworthy. At least I don`t recall getting any shady/false Informations from there.
Maybe someone could recommend other trustworthy YouTbe channels? Love to spend some of my free time like that.
« Last Edit: 18/02/2021 15:06:42 by chemhat1999 »
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Offline Janus

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Re: Why is light bent whent it passes a massive body in the space?
« Reply #49 on: 17/02/2021 18:09:52 »
Quote from: Hayseed on 17/02/2021 02:38:51
When we bowed light, we did not have lasers.  We used a flashlight.  White light.  Bowed white light.  Full of phase and wavelength.



And, if you had looked closely at the edges of that bowed wide light, you would have seen colored fringes caused by chromatic aberration, where the different wavelengths that make up "white" light where bowed by differing amounts.
You won't see it in the main beam because the all the different colors are still there and mixing, which it why it is only noticeable at the edges.
However, when looking at something like the light of a star bending as it passes the Sun, it doesn't act like a broad beam, but like a point source, and the chromatic aberration would be more noticeable if the bending was caused by interaction with a medium.
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