[pensador (OP)]

Moderator Note: This was split off from:
 Which scientists say we've just 18 months to "save planet from climate change"?
Which is still available on the original thread, at:
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=77444.0#lastPost

The function of pensioners like me is to prevent those who prefer dogma to logic, from ruining the world for our descendants.

Was it a majority of pensioners that voted for Brexit, many of whom are now dead a year later?

[pensador (OP)]

Quote from: alancalverd on Yesterday at 23:47:51
The function of pensioners like me is to prevent those who prefer dogma to logic, from ruining the world for our descendants.

Was it a majority of pensioners that voted for Brexit, many of whom are now dead a year later?

I asked one friend, why he voted for Brexit. It was to make the country great again, based on his historic memories. Perhaps he remembers high unemployment, riots, a time before the minimum wage and even the health service. 

The middle class, who want to replace the upper class, usually rile up the working class. They in turn take up arms. So again we have an army led by a potential replacement government. The people never spontaneously rise up.

Some of these "freedom fighters" are then supplied with arms from external governments. They are then fighting proxy wars on behalf of an imperialist regime.

Learn your history!

When I was younger we were moving away from a class based system, The UK government is today is run by upper class clowns. Boris and friends apparently for fun as a student burned 50 pound notes in front of homeless persons.

In high crime areas when the law breaks down, and riots start, you say the middle class are to blame. Could high crime and riots be  induced by high unemployment amongst the middle classes after Brexit. Perhaps it could be induced by Boris giving himself a ginormous pay rise for his troubles.

How do you discourage people from making babies when they are a useful source of income ? there are two stories going the rounds at the moment "the horrors of child labor in the production of cocoa" and the sorry tale of American women having babies to get government benefits and then letting die of neglect.   

Different cultures have different values, why should the external world approve or disaprove of what they get up to, or interfere in another countries laws. If you want to protest Dont support them by buying coco or goods from those countries or areas.

Is that south central or north america?

[alancalverd]

Was it a majority of pensioners that voted for Brexit, many of whom are now dead a year later?

Not many dead. About 5% per annum.

I voted for Brexit because I'm fed up with paying a membership fee to a club whose primary function is to bankrupt my country. I look forward to a time when I can once again recruit staff on the basis of ability, not nationality.

[jeffreyH]

Riots are carried out by criminals as an excuse to loot shops. Ordinary folk tend to like to watch telly and sip tea.

[pensador (OP)]

I voted for Brexit because I'm fed up with paying a membership fee to a club whose primary function is to bankrupt my country. I look forward to a time when I can once again recruit staff on the basis of ability, not nationality.

And you had a plan for after Brexit, which involves not recruiting foreigners, and not giving help to young families.

My scheme has no child benefits. You get money always and only for not being pregnant.

Would you like to cut benefits to just pregnant women, or is that pensioners and the unemployed, and student grants as well.  Should sick people pay for their own illnesses, and not rely on the taxation. Why should healthy people pay for sick people in any successful society. Should just people who contribute be allowed the vote. Will you do away with the minimum wage. Maybe you would like to privatise the NHS. Will you be able to do this without riots.
 

Riots are carried out by criminals as an excuse to loot shops. Ordinary folk tend to like to watch telly and sip tea.

Would you sip tea whilst Alan removes your Pension benefits and privatises the NHS, might you not protest and get involved with a bit of civil unrest ? .

[alancalverd]

I assume, from your inaccurate and childish invective, that you are a myopic Remainer, and possibly a member of the Labour Party from which I resigned about 10 years ago.

There's little point in replying in detail since you only seem to read alternate words, and not to understand what is written.

[Bored chemist]

I voted for Brexit because I'm fed up with paying a membership fee to a club whose primary function is to bankrupt my country.

Have you seen what's happened to the value of Sterling lately?
?

I look forward to a time when I can once again recruit staff on the basis of ability, not nationality.

The EU passed (and the UK adopted) legislation which makes it illegal to recruit on grounds of nationality (except in some rather odd cases).

Is starvation an effective method of birth control that might work better than condoms and education? Dont answer that!

It seems not to be. But birth control can prevent starvation.

And, as I pointed out, from the perspective of parents in the developing world, not using contraception prevents starvation in old age.

Not many dead. About 5% per annum.

which is consistent with, 3 years on, the 52:48 majority having disappeared.
Obviously, it's not the only factor.
People turning 18 are another clear factor.
Finding out that the brexiteers had absolutely no idea what they were doing is another.
Even just spotting that the leave party were found to have cheated will have influenced some.
And, of course some simply realised that having stronger links with the EU reduced human trafficking.
And they may have spotted that "taking back control" meant surrendering such influence that we had over the rules which we will, of course still have to follow if we wish to sell goods to the only credible market.

Now that people have a better idea of what's really on offer (spoiler alert- it's not another £350M a week for the NHS), perhaps we should have another referendum- but without massive cheating this time.

What do you think?
Would another vote to see what people now want be a good idea?

Meanwhile, back at the topic, it's difficult to say how long we have to save the planet.
The true answer is we missed the chance.
Some things will already have died out because of our behaviour.

But it's reasonable to make claims about how long we have before we lose some defined level of quality of life.
If we continue the policy of doing little or nothing then Alan's policies on reducing population will be moot.

The planet will do that for us.

[alancalverd]

The EU passed (and the UK adopted) legislation which makes it illegal to recruit on grounds of nationality (except in some rather odd cases).

EU citizens have the absolute right to live and work here. Australian, Indian, American...citizens do not. So recruitment is strongly biased in favour of some nations and against others (mainly Anglophone). 

And, as I pointed out, from the perspective of parents in the developing world, not using contraception prevents starvation in old age.

Except it doesn't. If there's no food, there's no food, no matter how many children you have. And if there's insufficient food for two, you both die where one might have survived. Making babies does not make rain or stop wars: it just makes drought and war more painful.

I have no doubt that another vote would reverse the referendum result, because parliamentary dithering in the interim has led to "uncertainty", which is what everyone blames for the collapse of Sterling, and the bizarre invective of the losers has become some kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. Negotiating from a standpoint of "we must have a deal" is like burning your aces and shooting the goalkeeper before the game starts. HM Government should have prepared and published an outline set of WTO-based tariffs, immigration rules, etc., before holding the referendum, and not wasted time and money leasing extra ferries to carry the trade that they tell us will actually disappear. Lions led by donkeys, as usual.

brexiteers had absolutely no idea what they were doing

I was voting to leave the EU, like 140 other nations that are not members. Unfortunately Parliament reneged on its decision to abide by the result. 

some simply realised that having stronger links with the EU reduced human trafficking.

Hence the daily reports of undocumented east European slaves who have replaced seasonal work visa holders. Bizarre arithmetic, BC.

the only credible market

now runs at a net deficit of £1000 per capita per annum, having increased steadily in real terms since we joined the Common Market. Plus the membership fee of another £500 p.a. for the privilege. But Remainers don't believe government statistics, do they?

Interestingly, non-members like Russia, China and Switzerland have a trade surplus with the EU. How is that possible, one wonders, if they have no say in making the rules? I could explain, but who would listen?

Meanwhile the climate changes, as it always has and always will, and various species migrate or die.

[pensador (OP)]

I assume, from your inaccurate and childish invective, that you are a myopic Remainer, and possibly a member of the Labour Party from which I resigned about 10 years ago.

There's little point in replying in detail since you only seem to read alternate words, and not to understand what is written.

You have me puzzled how removing benefits from young couples in the UK, will stop global warming.

The thread is about stopping global warming. This is not the first thread you have posted irrelevant comments on.

I have no allegiance to any political party, and change my votes and opinions regularly. I certainly am not going to vote for Coco the clown in 10 Clowning street  or any member of his party. I will also not vote for the labour party whilst Corben is in charge, something about supporting the IRA terrorism. Which in the UK leaves me with the monster raving looney party, Independents, SDP, and the Greens. 

I thought you might be little senile, based on some of your recent comments. I am not sure I was wrong.

I will leave you to your senior moments. FW't

[pensador (OP)]

I have no doubt that another vote would reverse the referendum result, because parliamentary dithering in the interim has led to "uncertainty",

Bullshit !!!!!

Voter apathy and lies from the Brexit campaigners led to the Brexit result. Put to another referendum, Brexit is finished, like Coco and the rest of his aging followers.

[Bored chemist]

Bizarre arithmetic, BC.

A border with patrols on both sides is more likely to be effective.
How did you come to the conclusion that arithmetic was involved?

Plus the membership fee of another £500 p.a. for the privilege. But Remainers don't believe government statistics, do they?

Here's an idea- never mind the government's figures; let's go with the plainly dishonest figure from the Brexiteers of £350M per week.
There are about 66 million people
So that's about £5.30 per week
About £275 per year (and obviously the honest figure is much less that that).

So you are misrepresenting the cost by a factor of about 2, even if you are still naive enough to believe the Leave party.
The real figure is something like half that so you are out by a factor of 4.

Except it doesn't. If there's no food, there's no food,

You missed the usual scenario where there is food.
But if you are old and infirm, you can't... oh never mind.
What's the point?
It's off topic and you are not interested in taking it seriously or you wouldn't say things like that.

[Bored chemist]

I have no doubt that another vote would reverse the referendum result, because parliamentary dithering in the interim has led to "uncertainty"

Parliamentary "dithering"- or "planning" as the grown ups call it may have done many things but what you have said there is that because people now have had a chance to find out more, they are more uncertain.
They know more so they are less sure.
That says that they were wrong to be sure before, doesn't it?
And if they were wrong to be so sure (and, in this context "so sure" is a 48:52 split) then they should find out the truth and then get another try .

[alancalverd]

A border with patrols on both sides is more likely to be effective.

But illegal in the EU.

[alancalverd]

So you are misrepresenting the cost by a factor of about 2,

Not me. Complain to the Central Statistical Office.

[Bored chemist]

So you are misrepresenting the cost by a factor of about 2,

Not me. Complain to the Central Statistical Office.

Citation needed.

[Bored chemist]

A border with patrols on both sides is more likely to be effective.

But illegal in the EU.

Have you been to France?
In the real world, there are border staff on "our" side labelled "customs" and there are border staff on "their" side labelled "Douaniers".
In your world, they are illegal.

You need to stop embarrassing yourself.

[alancalverd]

So either there is free movement of people in Europe, or there isn't. And the problem of east European slaves being trafficked into the UK may or may not exist, despite or because of these highly efficient border patrols that you believe are the product of the European Union. Doublethink prevails.

[Bored chemist]

So either there is free movement of people in Europe, or there isn't.

Or there is free movement of European citizens in Europe, but not freedom of movement for others.

And the problem of east European slaves being trafficked into the UK may or may not exist, despite or because of these highly efficient border patrols that you believe are the product of the European Union.

Straw man. Nobody said they were perfect, just that they are better than not having them.

Doublethink prevails.

You need to try single think.

[alancalverd]

from: alancalverd on Yesterday at 23:10:26So either there is free movement of people in Europe, or there isn't.

Or there is free movement of European citizens in Europe, but not freedom of movement for others.

from: alancalverd on Yesterday at 23:10:26And the problem of east European slaves being trafficked into the UK may or may not exist, despite or because of these highly efficient border patrols that you believe are the product of the European Union.

Straw man. Nobody said they were perfect, just that they are better than not having them.

All of which is part of my argument for leaving the EU. So no disagreement there.

[Bored chemist]

Well I wonder why we can't deal with the climate crisis. Oh yeah, that's right, we're too busy arguing about why Brexit, or why Trump, or why Boris. That way we can just ignore it and hope it goes away. Let's see how that works out shall we.

OK, fair point; it's a long way from the topic.
But Trump and Boris are not going to behave as if climate change is real, so there is some interaction/ relevance.

All of which is part of my argument for leaving the EU. So no disagreement there.

So, your argument for leaving the EU is that it's better than nothing, and you prefer nothing...