[pensador (OP)]

Where is the consciousness located ?

The following might appeal to pantheists, buddhists hindus, or newagers perhaps and maybe even scientists.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/think-well/201906/does-consciousness-exist-outside-the-brain
"Hence, in Fenwick’s view, the brain does not create or produce consciousness; rather, it filters it. As odd as this idea might seem at first, there are some analogies that bring the concept into sharper focus. For example, the eye filters and interprets only a very small sliver of the electromagnetic spectrum and the ear registers only a narrow range of sonic frequencies. Similarly, according to Fenwick, the brain filters and perceives only a tiny part of the cosmos’ intrinsic “consciousness.”
Fenwick is not a physicist, so I dredged the following link, the mind of wigners friend which supports the Fenwicks theory.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23040667?read-now=1&seq=1
The key points central to the article are
"A. My body with its internal nervous system(explored to any future degree of physiological completeness) functions as a pure mechanism according to the laws of nature. Further more quantum mechanics is the ultimate basis of the mechanism.

B. I am aware that by incontrovertible direct evidence of knowledge (information) entering my consciousness."

Would any one like to comment, where is your consciousness? what is it?

[Bored chemist]

maybe even scientists.

To get things to appeal to scientists, you generally need evidence.
Good luck.

[Bored chemist]

The opening of the first magazine article...
"Does Consciousness Exist Outside of the Brain?
Is consciousness actually a property of the universe like gravity or light?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines

[Bored chemist]

Is this not the response of an atheist, a scientist might have commented where the second paper from jstor I posted is barking mad.

OK, it says "I am aware, by incontrovertible direct evidence, of knowledge (information) entering my consciousness."
where you wrote
"I am aware that by incontrovertible direct evidence of knowledge (information) entering my consciousness."

More importantly, that statement is far from incontrovertible.
Much of the information you receive might be wrong and thus not (in a useful sense, knowledge.

Notably, your eyes provide you with a picture of the world, but in reality the eyes have blind spots.

[Bored chemist]

Your comments are based on the first link not the jstor link

No

OK, it says "I am aware, by incontrovertible direct evidence, of knowledge (information) entering my consciousness."
where you wrote
"I am aware that by incontrovertible direct evidence of knowledge (information) entering my consciousness."

More importantly, that statement is far from incontrovertible.
Much of the information you receive might be wrong and thus not (in a useful sense, knowledge.

Notably, your eyes provide you with a picture of the world, but in reality the eyes have blind spots.

relates to the jstor link.

[puppypower]

Our brains are composed of mostly water; 73%, with the rest organic material and minerals. If we dehydrated the brain, life and consciousness stop and nothing works down to enzymes. If we added any other solvent to replace the water, life and consciousness is nonexistent and nothing in the brain will work, right down to enzymes. If we start with water, everything works, integrates and life and consciousness appear. Water is uniquely qualified for life and consciousness.

Consciousness is fluid instead of structured like the computer program of an automaton. Consciousness is not solid state. This seems to imply consciousness is connected to the water in the brain. The hydrogen bonding between water and proteins and DNA is responsible for the shapes and dynamics of these molecules. Other solvents will create different shapes that do not work properly. Water creates a specific neural shapes that are needed for consciousness. You can prove this using other solvents and a microscope.

In terms of quantum affects, water shows proton tunneling affects. These, strangely, occur in proton pairs. Proton tunneling is more massive an event than election tunneling affects. This is why the brain uses. The organics of life define the structural matrix, on which the more fluid properties of water express consciousness. Water, in turn, structures the organics, to meet the needs of the water.

For example, proteins fold with perfect repeatable folding. This was discovered in the late 1950's. Perfect folding means a probability  of 1.0. Strangely, biology still uses a statistical approach and explanation for life, even though this data disproved a statistical approach. A probability of 1.0 means life is rational and logical and not statistical.

This 60 year old observation, which is common knowledge today, still cannot be explain with the assumptions of statistics. According to statistical thinking, the thermal vibrations of water alone should add variations. But these variables are not observed. The denial of fact, for 60 years, has to so with the needs of industry; assemble line science is better served with statistics. This needs less rational skills since it is procedure orientated.

Water is what induces the organics, such as protein into their repeatable shapes needed for their various functions. The affect is like mixing oil and water and shaking. This will form an emulsion. If we let it settle the water will push the oil out and induce the oil to form a repeatable second layer. Water shapes the organics, so the organics are in the proper matrix for life and consciousness via the water.

If we go back to the neurons of the brain, these cells expand about 90% of their energy pumping and exchanging ions. Ions and water have an intimate connection. Ions dissolved in water move about ten times slower than the hydrogen protons of water; pH affect. When you have ionic currents along fired neurons, the hydrogen protons of surrounding water are always way ahead, reacting to the potential changes, preparing in advance, for the eventual weight of the ions to appear.

The structural inducement, by water, that makes consciousness possible is connected to the ion pumping. When the ions are pumped and exchanged they are segregated and concentrated on each side of the membrane. This creates order in terms of the ions. Left to heir own devices, ions would prefer mix to form a uniform solution. The ions pumps create ionic potential.

The analogy is say we mixed sugar and salt in water. They will  both dissolve and blend. The  ion pumps essentially make all the sugar and salt go to opposite sides of the glass. This goes against the second law; entropy has to increase, which is why it take so much energy. There is an entropy potential induced in the water. This expression of increasing entropy drives consciousness; mixed the salt and sugar in the water. The path to the future, to release the potential, is both known; fixed neural pathways and unknown; creativity. The ion pumps are always working so consciousness is continuous; mixing ions with hydrogen protons currents. 

[puppypower]

An important addendum to this discussion is the fact that hydrogen bonding, which occurs in water, protein and DNA and all the important biomaterials, shows both polar and covalent bonding character. What this means is the hydrogen bond can act like a binary switch, t hat can flip between these two settings. These little switches are way more advanced than the semiconductor switches used in computer memory, which are simply on-off.

The hydrogen bonding switches can switch between polar and covalent settings. Each of these two settings, in turn, has difference in terms of the local induced volume/pressure, entropy and internal energy. The result is a hydrogen bond based binary switch has muscle. Each settings of the hydrogen bonding switch will impact the surrounding molecules differently by expanding or contracting, by higher or lower entropy, or by higher or lower enthalpy. When information is transmitted into the cell, though the water, this information it also contains muscle for molecular enforcement.

Neural memory and the synapse is also more complex that a simple semiconductor on-off switch. Neurons use neurotransmitters, which are molecules that  can make it easier or harder for neurons to fire. Instead of a binary switch  the synapse is more like a variable switch, that will not fire or cannot help by fire and all in between. The information in the neural water helps to control these switches.

If I use consciousness; connected to ionic entropy potential, and use this potential to think of a sad song and I get depressed, I am flipping neuron switches. The perpetual ionic potential is like a continuous energy stream that move like a current, with consciousness carried along. If we swim toward the shore, we continue to move with the stream, and have energy to push the buttons that flip switches.

[Kryptid]

The article in the OP is suggesting the brain is where the consciousness manifests from a universal consciousness, the brain just filters out part of the universal consciousness, like an eye only detects part of the visible spectrum.

Without any way to test that, there's no way to know whether it's true or not.

[pensador (OP)]

The article in the OP is suggesting the brain is where the consciousness manifests from a universal consciousness, the brain just filters out part of the universal consciousness, like an eye only detects part of the visible spectrum.

Without any way to test that, there's no way to know whether it's true or not.

Its a little bit like the teapot flying around the sun argument. Only an idiot would believe in the great god teapot.

I was hoping that somehow I could find a better argument against either paper I posted.

Edit lots of people believe in reincarnation and life after death, so in order to win this argument I need something better, than only an idiot would believe in this.

[puppypower]

so consciousness is continuous; mixing ions with hydrogen protons currents.

So sticking with the thread, It seems you have a big hole in your reasoning. You are stating if your body is dead,  and still full of water, your consciousness is still there. seems a little wrong does it not !

The article in the OP is suggesting the brain is where the consciousness manifests from a universal consciousness, the brain just filters out part of the universal consciousness, like an eye only detects part of the visible spectrum. I guess you could change brain for water in the body if you wanted, there would be no big difference to the argument.

"A. My body with its internal nervous system(explored to any future degree of physiological completeness) functions as a pure mechanism according to the laws of nature. Further more quantum mechanics is the ultimate basis of the mechanism.

B. I am aware that by incontrovertible direct evidence of knowledge (information) entering my consciousness."

The above two quotes are from the second article I posted which sort of supports the first.
 

Consciousness and life comes from a union of water and organics. The water induces the configurations of the organics. For example, all protein folding is induced in and by water. Like water and oil, water also helps to phase separate the organic into organelles.

The organic matrix defines a material capacitance, since it is composed of covalently bonded materials, held together by secondary bonding, that are induced by the water. The dynamics of the induced organic matrix, induced the water, is conveyed throughout life by the information transmission muscle capacity of water. Water or organic, alone, will not work in terms of life or consciousness. This can be shown in the lab. But when layered properly and working together,  both life and consciousness can appear. 

The concept of universal consciousness and our brain filtering out part of this, so we can manifest as an individual consciousness, is another way of describing how the operating system of the brain is organized and works.

The human brain has two centers of consciousness; inner self and ego. The inner self is often described as the undiscovered self. The inner self is much older and is connected to natural instinct and human nature. The inner self, instinct, snd human nature are common to all humans and define us as a species; universal mind. The ego, which is the center of the conscious mind, is much newer in terms of evolution/creation. This defines us as an individual. It is the filter that sees one color of the inner self rainbow. The inner self or universal mind is based on DNA and the laws of physics, via the connections between water and organics,  making it truly universal.

An analogy for consciousness is a computer. The hardware of the computer are the organics of the brain. The software  is connected to the water. Hardware or software alone is not  sufficient to make a  computer work. Both are needed.

Consciousness is connected to the operating system of the brain. The operating system is based on a union of organic and water; firmware. The universal mind is like everyone running the same operating system on a wide varieties of PC's. . Each of us makes us of this larger universal  operating system in different ways, that is unique to each of us. Nobody uses the entire capability of the operating system, but each filters parts based on our choices and will.

The author is projecting the collective nature of the inner self. This can be useful, and often stems from the inner self. Awareness of the innes self can help map out the operating system. Like the rainbow, the inner self is composed of layers of firmware; water-organics. The layer or layers we use most is partially chosen by the ego; inidivial needs.and the universal mind; innate ability for the collective needs of the group or species.   

[Colin2B]

Only an idiot would believe in the great god teapot.

On this site we ask you to respect other belief systems no matter how strange they might seem
Thank you for your cooperation 

[Kryptid]

On this site we ask you to respect other belief systems no matter how strange they might seem
Thank you for your cooperation 

I'm pretty sure he's talking about Russell's teapot. He wasn't insulting anyone's beliefs. Rather, he was admitting that "only an idiot would believe X" is a poor argument.

[Colin2B]

I'm pretty sure he's talking about Russell's teapot. He wasn't insulting anyone's beliefs.

I though so too, but I just couldn’t resist it. 

[Blimey]

Could it be a projection?

[puppypower]

Could it be a projection?

Psychological projection is a defense mechanism in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.

A projection is like a little movie pseudo camera in the frontal lobe, that shines through your eyes, via the imagination, and appears to overlay reality. If one is unaware, it seems to come from  outside yourself.  It is like someone shining a red light on a statue. If you do not know the red light was added from outside the statue, it appears to be part of it; a Red Statue.

As a negative example, a cheating spouse will often get paranoid that the other spouse is cheating, even if they are not. This projection comes from within the cheater, because they can can not deal with the guilt of their own behavior. As such, a projection movie; frontal lobe, will overlap their spouse, so they appear to see them as the source of problem. They can then justify their actions. We are conditioned by science and culture to have an extroverted materialist POV of reality. The projection places our problems outside us, in the external material world, to meet these expectations. The cheater is not thinking of inside but assumes this is outside them since culture says nothing inside is as good as outside.

An example of a positive projection occurs when people fall in love or become infatuation. They often project an overlay, onto the beloved, that exaggerates that person. They can become the most beautiful or handsome person I have ever seen. Their friends may not see it since this is their own projector.

This exaggeration does not belong to person being projected upon, but rather it stems from the personality firmware of love and romance within the projector person. It is designed to attract humans for procreation, in spite of ego resistance or excuses. The ego may be holding out for a movie star so the projector will give it to them.

This is a good form of projection, since it can lead to something good. On the the other hand, if one trained the,sed to be fully aware of the nature of projection, and was to accept this infatuation as coming from inner firmware, you could spoil the fun. Some projection is better left alone, while other is better to analyze.

Projections from the inner self, directly, instead of through firmware intermediates, can lead to useful cultural revelations and insights. The movie that will shine onto reality; extroverted materialism, can show the layout of the firmware via its projections. One would need to reverse engineer this by knowing the materialism POV and finding the difference.

The utopian projection, that is placed onto the concept of Socialism, could work if all people had the proper projectors working; exaggerated sense of family and community. However, as history shows, since firmware projectors are not subject to willpower, the reality of the ego, will not allow this to add the same way for all over long periods of time.

In other words, if you could project the feelings of family onto the world, this could work, but this projector may not cooperate, with all people, to create the global unconscious sense of community that is needed. Many people will repress this projection for practical reasons, while others will project self serving projections to take advantage of the temporary unconscious cooperation; Castro. The ends will justify the means.

We live in a world that is dominated by extroverted materialism, so few people will accept projection as coming from within. Rather cultural  expectation places it outside us, where it can be investigated with science. The idea of an autonomous inner self is unsettling. If unconscious content becomes too conscious and one is communicating back and forth, this is considered taboo; psychosis. Projection is considered more acceptable in our social environment,

Projection of low level firmware, connected to instinct,can make a derivative of the common cold; Corona Virus, the bogeyman of 2020, even if the flu is still ahead in statistics. Flu does not have the help of the projector,r and therefore higher levels of affect, can appear less threatening. The projector can amplify via an overlay.

Psychological projection is a defense mechanism in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.

What is being denied?

[Bored chemist]

This expression of increasing entropy drives consciousness;

I presume you knew that statement was going to be dismissed without giving evidence.

[puppypower]

A good  example of a collective or herd projection is the Corona Virus. This round of collective projection is being induced by mass media; fake news. The unconscious mind that had been primed by two etas of previous fake news; collusion delusion.

Psychological projection is a defense mechanism in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.

One way to see this is to compare the Corona Virus of 2020, to the Swine Flu virus of 2009. Both created pandemics, yet each resulted in a different herd reactions. The difference had to do with the media reaction in each case.

In 2009, the Swine flu infected 60 million Americans and nearly a 1 billion world wide. Nearly 300,000 American were hospitalized, with about 15,000 deaths. The world wide death toll was about 400,000.

The Corona Virus has infested about 300,000 world wide with about 15,000 deaths. The USA alone had as many victims of the swine flu as the world has had with corona virus, yet there was no panic on the same scale. Why is the is boogeyman more effective?

If we compare these which should have resulted in the most scary projection? Why did the lessor of two evils result in more fear and panic? History will show this .It has to do with main steam media, bias, and the politics of an election year.

In 2009, Obama was president and the fawning media, who was 93% positive, did not wish to create any negative news that could harm Obama, even if this meant playing down a pandemic. They did not to wish to juice up those vulnerable to projection. Republicans do not usually play politics with tragedy, as do the Democrats, so they did not push, either.

Flash forward to 2016. Fake News has been lying constantly to the America people in an attempt to take out Trump. Remember the collusion delusion that had most Democrats and the never Trump crowd, projecting evil onto Trump? How many fell for it, because it did appear that the evil portrayed by fake news, was outside themselves, and not a projection of their own cold hearts.

Fake news never got punished for playing with the minds of the unsuspecting victims of projection. The same people are doing it again, while the herd has shown it is powerless to overcome projection. Reason and common sense do not work. How many sill wish to believe this is outside of themselves?

The main point, for this topic, is projection shows one can be mislead, by the unconscious into thinking that consciousness exists outside our own psyche. The boogeyman of unconsciousness can protect and appear outside, and few can see otherwise, if they are unconscious of projection affects.

Science is also vulnerable when celebrity, funding raising and peer pressure get mixed up with the fear. Scientists also project  and can confuse inner motivations via projections onto hard reality that is not tainted. This is common in scientists in these forums.

[Bored chemist]

Flash forward to 2016. Fake News has been lying constantly to the America people in an attempt to take out Trump.

The actual evidence shows that you have that the wrong way round.
Trump's the one for "fake news".
For example, he started off by saying the current flu outbreak was not important.

[hamdani yusuf]

Flash forward to 2016. Fake News has been lying constantly to the America people in an attempt to take out Trump. Remember the collusion delusion that had most Democrats and the never Trump crowd, projecting evil onto Trump? How many fell for it, because it did appear that the evil portrayed by fake news, was outside themselves, and not a projection of their own cold hearts.

You can point out the fake news by fact checking them.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/17/politics/fact-check-trump-always-knew-pandemic-coronavirus/index.html

Trump was asked Tuesday about his change in tone. He responded by claiming that his tone hadn't changed much at all.
"I mean, I have seen that, where people actually liked it. But I didn't feel different," he said at a White House press briefing. "I've always known, this is a real -- this is a real -- this is a pandemic. I felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic. All you had to do was look at other countries...no, I've always viewed it as very serious. It was no difference yesterday from days before. I feel the tone is similar, but some people said it wasn't."
This was another of Trump's brazen attempts to rewrite a history that played out in public view.
Facts First: From January until last week, Trump consistently minimized the risk the coronavirus posed to the country. He claimed to have the virus under "control," that the number of US cases would go "down, not up," that the virus might "disappear" through a "miracle" or something of the sort, that the virus might well vanish by April with the warmer weather, that the media and Democrats were overhyping the situation, and that "this is their new hoax," leaving it unclear whether he was calling the virus itself a hoax. (He later said he was talking about Democrats' coronavirus-related criticism, not the virus.)
On Monday, Trump acknowledged that the situation is "bad," that the virus is not under control, that the country might well be heading into a recession, and that American life would not get back to normal for months. He had not made such statements before.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/28/trump-says-the-coronavirus-is-the-democrats-new-hoax.html

President Donald Trump said Friday that Democrats are using the virulent coronavirus as a “hoax” to damage him and his administration.

“The Democrats are politicizing the coronavirus,” he said from a campaign rally in North Charleston, South Carolina.

“One of my people came up to me and said ‘Mr. President they tried to beat you on Russia, Russia, Russia. That didn’t work out too well.’ They couldn’t do it. They tried the impeachment hoax that was on a perfect conversation,” he continued.

“This is their new hoax,” he said, referring to the coronavirus.

[puppypower]

This topic is about where is consciousness is located. I was showing some examples of how the projection factor of the unconscious mind works. The unconscious mind can project content, like an overlay onto reality. What we then see is not 100% reality, but reality superimposed by the projection. It does not have to be a visual or audio overlay but it most often an emotional overlay.

For example, if you go in the woods at night, one may be more alert, since there may be critters of the night lurking about. If fear takes hold; emotional projection, one will overreact to the rustling of the wind. Nothing may be there, but it will feel like something is. Logic may not be sufficient to overcome the fear, since you are not doing this purposely and instinct seems to say there is a threat outside you.

The young man in love will see the most beautiful woman in the world, in his beloved. This is not 100% reality, but is due to a projection onto reality: beer goggles. A projection can make people think consciousness is outside themselves; spirits of the forests.  It can also animate the spirits of the virus, so these tiny boogeyman are like a cloud around any stranger. One will rationalize this extroverted assumption instead of rationalize a possibleo fear projection.

In terms of comparing the swine flu of 2009, under Obama and the Corona Virus under Trump, the reactions were different by the media, and the results of the virus were also different. This had to do with two different induced projections. In 2009, people projected safety and business as usual onto a pandemic. While in 2020, there is excessive fear projected onto a lessor pandemic. We create our own internal/external reality via projections. Prejudice is a projection.

The data for corona virus says it impacts the elderly more than the youth. It also says, someone who is healthy and in shape will be less likely be a serious target. With this data in mind, many college kids went to spring break to have fun. The adults, via their projected fear, got all excited about the "reckless behavior" of the young people, even though the data says they are less vulnerable.  It turns out there are six cases out of hundreds of thousands of kids, with nobody dying. To those projecting fear, this means the world is about to end.

I did use a political example, in my previous post, since projection is very common to politics. This is more common to the left since emotional projection is very important and will be blindly followed. Audio and visual is very hard to induce. Confidence men and women promise you the world and many voters start to protect their wishful fantasies into these promises. Usually one side the issue can induce the projection easier in certain people, but not in others..Many people are disappointed after the election since their fantasy projection ends when hard reality takes over. Fake news and marketing also play a role in the induction process and they shift gears. Obama was Moses to many black during election time, but hard reality soon kicked in.

Projection is a way for aspects of consciousness; from the unconscious mind,  to spontaneously appear outside the brain. This can create a problem even for science. The most important tool of science is the human mind. If one is not aware of projection and/or  what exactly is causing a projection, how do you calibrate the human mind, so this tool is processing reality accurately?