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How does time dilation exist for the guy on the meteor moving at a constant speed, like in a gravity field, but in an artificial gravity field like the one for the guy on the accelerating meteor, time dilation is changing?
Quote from: mad aetherist on 30/01/2019 11:33:40according to SR all clocks in any one frame tick at the same rate, but, in an accelerating frame due to GR the guy will perceive that his clock ticks at a different rate.In an accelerated frame, as with any frame, an observer will perceive other clocks (ones not in the same accelerated frame) to be dilated one way or the other. In particular, clocks in the direction of acceleration appear to run faster, and ones behind slower, or even backwards.This is true even of multiple clocks in a rigid ship, all accelerating with the ship. Therefore clocks at either end of an accelerating ship are not in similar accelerating reference frames.There are balance points, so a clock orbiting at an altitude of 3178 km will stay in sync with a clock on the ground, despite the two clocks being stationary in two very different reference frames.
according to SR all clocks in any one frame tick at the same rate, but, in an accelerating frame due to GR the guy will perceive that his clock ticks at a different rate.
Quote from: mad aetherist on 30/01/2019 14:09:59I think that there are a number of possible Einsteinian combinations for guys on the accelerating meteor.(a) All clocks have the same true ticking rate.(b) All clocks have a different true ticking rate.(c) All clocks have the same apparent true ticking rate.(d) All clocks have a different apparent ticking rate.(e) the concept of having a true ticking rate is not consistent with SR & GR.(f) all that SR & GR have is apparent ticking rates.I would pick (e). You didn't suggest (g) all clocks run at rates relative to each other. It is the theory of relativity after all.
I think that there are a number of possible Einsteinian combinations for guys on the accelerating meteor.(a) All clocks have the same true ticking rate.(b) All clocks have a different true ticking rate.(c) All clocks have the same apparent true ticking rate.(d) All clocks have a different apparent ticking rate.(e) the concept of having a true ticking rate is not consistent with SR & GR.(f) all that SR & GR have is apparent ticking rates.
QuoteIt is interesting that in SR all other clocks in all other frames will all appear to be ticking slower.I edited out 'appear to' from my post. An inertial clock coming towards inertial-me will run slower in my frame because it is moving, but will appear to run faster due to Doppler effects.
It is interesting that in SR all other clocks in all other frames will all appear to be ticking slower.
QuoteBut that in GR with accelerating frames some other clocks can appear to be ticking faster, & that this not only applies to clocks in other frames but it also applies to clocks in your frame (eg on your meteor).GR does not state this. A clock in the presence of an observer will run at a fixed normal rate relative to that observer, regardless of speed or acceleration of the pair. The principle of relativity demands this.
But that in GR with accelerating frames some other clocks can appear to be ticking faster, & that this not only applies to clocks in other frames but it also applies to clocks in your frame (eg on your meteor).
QuoteA clock orbiting at 3178 km will stay in synch with a clock on the ground. Does that depend on direction of orbit?No.
A clock orbiting at 3178 km will stay in synch with a clock on the ground. Does that depend on direction of orbit?
I alwyz thought d Aether theory wz a fantastic explanatn 2 unknowns of d Universe...Praps I shud think again.Just a litl clarificatn required...If I sit on top of a rocket🚀(yeaa itz my rockt, I'll sit wherevr I want)N accelerate uptil d speed of lite💡💨(use xcess imaginatn)Irrespective of any other observers, watching me from any angle...I Will NOT xperience any time dilation at all, rite???Wat bout d time wen I'm accelerating, still nuthin?A constant speed, nuthin much happening...but wat abt d accelerating part?D clock wud b in my hands, so me, d clock n d rocket all muvin or rather accelerating at d same rate, soo no dilation correct?
Does the escape vel at 3178 km equal the orbital vel?
However splitting hairs the ground can be spinning at up to +- 0.4 kmps, which could make a small diff.
Where the aetherists & Einsteinologists differ is that aetherists believe that an observer sitting in the rest frame (aetherwind is zero kmps) will see the true ticking rate of u & your watch-clock.
Quote from: mad aetherist on 01/02/2019 21:01:26Where the aetherists & Einsteinologists differ is that aetherists believe that an observer sitting in the rest frame (aetherwind is zero kmps) will see the true ticking rate of u & your watch-clock. This actually isn't very difficult to falsify. Take two clocks, both stationary, but one inside a dense hollow transparent mass, and the other not. The one inside the mass will appear to tick slower than the outside one, to both observers, and yet both are stationary with zero aetherwind. They can't both be ticking at the true rate if they run at different rates.
Quote from: mad aetherist on 01/02/2019 21:01:26Where the aetherists & Einsteinologists differ is that aetherists believe that an observer sitting in the rest frame (aetherwind is zero kmps) will see the true ticking rate of u & your watch-clock. Not one aetherist has managed to compute approximately how dilated GMT time is, which seems to be a standard despite it being in a varying gravitational field and ever changing absolute velocity. Earth spins at different angular rates depending on how deep in the gravitational field it is at a particular radius. It is a clock after all. So I ask, how long does it really take, in true time, for Earth to make one revolution? GMT says it takes 23:56:04 at sea level, or maybe in Greenwich which is ~46 meters higher. What does the aetherist say?
I am thinking that elevation doesnt make any difference to Greenwich time. When a certain star directly overhead crosses their crosshair then that marks the start-end of a sidereal day. And elevation doesnt affect that.
However we know that (i) the Earth has ... 30 kmps orbit)(& 0.4 kmps spin).
Hencely G will have a problem calibrating the ticking of their clock. They will have to use some sort of average over lots of days.
And then we have the problem of synchronizing other identical clocks at other locations.
Firstly there is no such thing as time, so there is no such thing as true time, & no such thing as dilation of true time. Secondly, eh, oh, hmmm -- there is no secondly.
What is a problem is the dilation of ticking, ticking is never constant, it is affected by elevation, the Moon, time of year, etc etc.
Another problem is the difficulty of synchronizing clocks. The problems arise when the experiment involves other clocks at other locations.
Anyhow u are on 506 & i am on 429 & i reckon that i should overtake u in a month or so,
Quote from: mad aetherist on 03/02/2019 03:23:39The Earth's perceived ticking never changes (even if true ticking changes)How can true ticking be true if it changes? A clock that ticks at the true rate should never read the wrong time, and should never need to be synced with anything because it can never get out of sync with other clocks that tick at that rate. I'm asking how long the sidereal day is as measured by such a clock.
The Earth's perceived ticking never changes (even if true ticking changes)
Quotetherefore any estimates measured in Earth years does not need any correcting or calibration for true ticking.So Earth clocks (despite being neither stationary nor having zero aetherwind) tick at the true rate? If you're not saying that, I don't know what you're trying to convey when saying that Earth measurements need no correcting.
therefore any estimates measured in Earth years does not need any correcting or calibration for true ticking.
QuoteBut its ok to talk of age or elapsed time or time of starting or finishing etc, all based on tickings.OK, based on true tickings, how much time elapses during one Earth rotation? Apparently you will not attempt an answer unless I use approved terminology to ask the question.
But its ok to talk of age or elapsed time or time of starting or finishing etc, all based on tickings.
lol Maddy, ur funy! praps its just futile askin u questns n xpctin a straight rply 😝 PS - a bit stuck up on 13.8b is not d real age of d Uni. Geez!
Re how much time elapses during one Earth rotation, there are three answers,
(1) the time according to your clock,
(2) the time according to the Greenwich clock,
(3) the true time(the time indicated by (1) & (2) if (1) & (2) were perfectly accurate.
Show me where i mention true time. I mention true ticking. There is no such thing as time.
And (4) everyone on Earth will come up with a different number based on their own clock (due to ordinary error)(& due to physical changes & differences)(another kind of error).
Again I get no answer.Quote from: mad aetherist on 04/02/2019 00:04:28Re how much time elapses during one Earth rotation, there are three answers,I count four, but none of them is an answer.Quote(1) the time according to your clock,I don't have a clock.Quote(2) the time according to the Greenwich clock,23:56:04, which is not the question I'm asking.Quote(3) the true time(the time indicated by (1) & (2) if (1) & (2) were perfectly accurate.Earth is moving and is in a gravity well, so (2) ticks slow and (1) is nonexistent since I've specified no clock of mine.Quote from: mad aetherist on 03/02/2019 03:23:39Show me where i mention true time. I mention true ticking. There is no such thing as time. You just contradicted this assertion in your answer above where you mention true time.QuoteAnd (4) everyone on Earth will come up with a different number based on their own clock (due to ordinary error)(& due to physical changes & differences)(another kind of error).I'm not asking for any answer based on anybody's clock. I'm asking how long it actually takes for Earth to make one revolution. As a relativist, I cannot give an answer because I think aether is fiction and there is no absolute rate. There are only relative rates. Any aetherist (or presentist for that matter) should be able to give an answer. The lack of it seems to be a self-inconsistency within your view.
Quote from: mad aetherist on 04/02/2019 02:56:22I dont understand the need to nail down the true duration of a sidereal day.Any absolute theory, including all the aether theories, assert such a rate. Relativity theory has no such concept. In the absence of being able to compute the rate, the aether theories are falsified.QuoteBut acknowledging that the sidereal day is never the same, & that a very accurate measurement would show. The variance is somewhere around the 7th or 8th decimal. I don't need an answer to that accuracy, so the mean current sidereal day length is effectively a constant, which is why I chose it.QuoteHow many decimal places are needed?Two is fine. For instance, a GPS satellite runs slow by 7 microseconds per day due to its speed, and fast by 45 due to being less deep in Earth's gravity well. Net difference is 38 microseconds per day faster than a clock on the ground. That's two digits of precision.QuoteIt doesnt matter whether Earth is moving or is in a gravity well,It very much matters as has been empirically verified. Your theory was falsified a century ago if you assert this.Quoteall ticking is constant or appears to be constant no matter what, as long as the clock & lab stay together.There is no clock and no lab. Nobody is measuring anything since there is no absolute observer. All these things should be computed, not measured. If you could measure it, relativity would be falsified.QuoteExcept that the sidereal day is on average getting shorter every day.Longer actually. I'm talking about the current sidereal day, not the length centuries from now.You seem to have no answer. You seem to be mathematically impaired, but the websites should have the figure in question. Feel free to quote somebody else's answer, but I need a link then since it could otherwise just be a guess. Absent an answer, I think the absolutist's views (which includes those of aetherists) have been falsified. Relativity was right all along.
I dont understand the need to nail down the true duration of a sidereal day.
But acknowledging that the sidereal day is never the same, & that a very accurate measurement would show.
How many decimal places are needed?
It doesnt matter whether Earth is moving or is in a gravity well,
all ticking is constant or appears to be constant no matter what, as long as the clock & lab stay together.
Except that the sidereal day is on average getting shorter every day.
Quote from: Zer0 on 03/02/2019 16:22:37lol Maddy, ur funy! praps its just futile askin u questns n xpctin a straight rply 😝 PS - a bit stuck up on 13.8b is not d real age of d Uni. Geez! They say 13.8 billion years, we say for ever, an infinite number of years. I guess it comes down to them believing in the bigbang, & we dont.
Quote from: mad aetherist on 04/02/2019 00:13:32Quote from: Zer0 on 03/02/2019 16:22:37lol Maddy, ur funy! praps its just futile askin u questns n xpctin a straight rply 😝 PS - a bit stuck up on 13.8b is not d real age of d Uni. Geez! They say 13.8 billion years, we say for ever, an infinite number of years. I guess it comes down to them believing in the bigbang, & we dont.I lyk Aether alot...but...it does not help me personally in understanding d universe.Praps I'm better off sticking wit d big bang edition.✌
Nope i dont understand what u are getting at.