Naked Science Forum

On the Lighter Side => That CAN'T be true! => Topic started by: alancalverd on 02/11/2023 20:33:36

Title: What is "four times less"?
Post by: alancalverd on 02/11/2023 20:33:36
I've just seen a TV advert for a detergent that requires "four times less scrubbing" to remove grease.

Now one times A equals A  so one times less A = 0. No problem with that.

But what does 4 times less A mean? Does the detergent remove the grease from next week's dinner too?
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/11/2023 20:41:24
It's what happens when maths meets advertising.
Many products now offer remove or kill "up to 100%" of something.
I dare say it's accurate... the range includes zero.
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: evan_au on 02/11/2023 20:43:35
I think it is shorthand for "one quarter of"
- But understandable by people who are comfortable with the counting numbers, but uncomfortable with fractions...

I suspect that the quantity that is reduced to a quarter is the mechanical energy of scrubbing - perhaps this new product chemically reacts or dissolves the dirt, much better than (say) water.

It is possible that "one quarter of the energy expended in scrubbing" translates into "one quarter of the time spent scrubbing"
- However, I am sure that it does not mean that it removes dirt, three-quarters of which has not yet been generated
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: vhfpmr on 03/11/2023 11:03:05
Four times more: multiply by four
Four times less: divide by four, i.e. less, by  a factor of four.
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/11/2023 11:59:41
Four times more: multiply by four
Four times less: divide by four, i.e. less, by  a factor of four.
The problem is it's unorthodox use of language.
We use "less" for subtraction and "times" for multiplication.
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: vhfpmr on 03/11/2023 12:45:13
Four times more: multiply by four
Four times less: divide by four, i.e. less, by  a factor of four.
The problem is it's unorthodox use of language.
We use "less" for subtraction and "times" for multiplication.

Minus is the opposite of plus, less is the opposite of more.
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/11/2023 14:01:34
Four times more: multiply by four
Four times less: divide by four, i.e. less, by  a factor of four.
The problem is it's unorthodox use of language.
We use "less" for subtraction and "times" for multiplication.

Minus is the opposite of plus, less is the opposite of more.
Your observation seems the opposite of useful.
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: alancalverd on 03/11/2023 15:24:34
Four times more: multiply by four
Four times less: divide by four, i.e. less, by  a factor of four.
So one times less = ?
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: varsigma on 03/11/2023 22:26:15
With numbers, doesn't "times" mean iterated addition?

Like 3 times 6 is 3 added six times, right? LIkewise "times less" means iterated subtraction, i.e. division.

What if the product only gives me 3.2 times less whatever? How do I logically deal with that? Or if I can't determine how close to 4 times less my individual result is? I invoke statistics, of course.
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: Bored chemist on 04/11/2023 00:52:16
Four times more: multiply by four
Four times less: divide by four, i.e. less, by  a factor of four.
So one times less = ?
It probably = bad grammar.
One time fewer.
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: alancalverd on 04/11/2023 08:47:49
LIkewise "times less" means iterated subtraction
So 1 times less = 0
and n times less (n>1) = ?
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: paul cotter on 04/11/2023 16:17:19
Four times less is obviously=−3. So the real question is how one does −3 scrubbing sessions?
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: Zer0 on 29/11/2023 17:49:11
It's Obviously the Opposite of...
" Four times More " .

ps - : )~
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: alancalverd on 29/11/2023 17:54:18
However I  interpret "opposite", whether by arithmetic or geometry, it still implies that the detergent will remove grease  that doesn't exist yet.

Oddly, that would work if you wash up in a bowl, because you could save the scummy cold water for another day, but this advert was for dishwasher capsules so it would all get flushed away the first time you used it. 
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: paul cotter on 29/11/2023 20:58:19
Maybe it removes negative grease, so you end up with plates covered in gank?
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: paul cotter on 30/11/2023 12:47:35
Maybe it strips the grease, the glaze, the pattern and half the base ceramic as if it were a bath of molten sodium hydroxide? That adds up to four times.
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: Petrochemicals on 08/12/2023 13:21:21
Four times, less scrubbing. Scrubbing required by Brand Y ? 4= the ammount of scrubbing you will have to do with Brand X minus the Scrubbing required by Brand Y ----->  5(scrubbing brand y) = scrubbing brand X.


But it could also be

Scrubbing required by Brand X?4= the ammount of scrubbing you will have to do with Brand Y.
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: alancalverd on 08/12/2023 17:07:38
However you phrase it, 1 times less than Y  is obviously  Y - Y = 0, whatever Y may be, so 4 times less is Y- 4Y = - 3Y, which invokes the concept of negative scrubbing.
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: Zer0 on 08/12/2023 18:01:24
Good Point @ PC!

The process of Scrubbing perhaps has a Specific lower limit.

For an Object A____B

say 4 times from point A to B, n similarly 4 return strokes from B to A.
Total = 8

' Four Times Less '
8/4 = 2

ps - I don't get maths, Sorry if it makes No sense.

* Whatever the liquid/gel/solution is in question, it seems pretty acidic...
I'd suggest using gloves..
Made of Steel.
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: alancalverd on 08/12/2023 21:44:28
 No. "Less" means "subtract". Look at this standard invoice:

Goods delivered as specified              $500

Less deposit received in advance       $200 

Total now due                                      $300

By your bizarre arithmetic you'd invoice for $500/200 = $2.50 and be out of business in a week.
Title: Re: What is "four times less"?
Post by: Zer0 on 11/12/2023 17:49:36
" I've just seen a TV advert for a detergent that requires "four times less scrubbing" to remove grease. "

I felt They were making an Attempt to boost Sales using Scientific mathemagikz!

Anyways...
Goods Delivered
$500
' Four times Less ' d.r.a.
$125
Total due
$375

The point where i see Their logic break apart is...
If the minimum amount of Scrubs required to clean a surface A___B which has a fixed surface area is Just One Scrub!
(forward & return)

2/4 = 0.5

ps - an invoice/bill is starting off of a process, a receipt is proof of final commencement.
There is Always a Scope for Error Correction in Economics!