Naked Science Forum
General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: Europan Ocean on 28/06/2017 14:00:15
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Today as Christian I am threatened by similar to 1930s Nazi German hate speech. No plans to be rid of us but to take away our freedom.
The Jews were taunted with "Jude" painted on their shops and were very badly persecuted. Christians today are called homophobes and bigots without correct use of English these days. Labeled as such if they don't agree with alternate ideology and we are hated, even violently. Example Margaret Court:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-22/protest-against-margaret-court-outside-liberal-party-function/8642276
Margaret is being kind.
Attacks fall on Jews even today, Muslims and Sikhs, Sikhs mistaken for Muslims. And we Christians are labeled and hated.
Agnostics, Atheists, non religious Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Shinto... have fair minded reasons not to agree that same sex marriage is the same and traditional marriage. Academic outlooks, no hard feelings.
For us Christians we seek to be in set old terms, benevolent. We want our children to go after Christ's benevolence. Hope for the best for other kids.
I have read that homosexual couples are offended by seeing women breast feeding in public, and even want that ruled out in the constitution.
For me personally, conflict resolution is better than taking sides. Giving a few people what they want is okay, my take is a centre view. Traditional marriage remains unaltered, rights and freedoms for Christians and traditional of many sorts are written into the constitution, and post modern marriage is devised for same sex couples.
Bottom line, I don't want to be labeled and hated. We dislike the Swedish ministers taking a side in the conflict of views and trying to tell us to give up our jobs as priests and pastors. I hate all this hate.
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First off the "Jude" is not a hate label. The term Jude is merely the German (and Swedish) word for Jew. As such its still in use by German speaking people, even Jews! And they don't use it as a label for hate. Don't you look these things up before you decide what they mean?
And we Christians are labeled and hated.
That's an inaccurate statement. To say that Christians are hated etc literally means that everyone, or at least the majority of people, hate Christians. That is simply not true. In the world we live in ignorance runs rampant. You'd be able to find people who hate others for no just about any reason. I've seen people who post in physics forums make horrible comments about religious people claiming all sorts of horrible things about them regardless of whether they're Jews or Christians.
Agnostics, Atheists, non religious Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Shinto... have fair minded reasons not to agree that same sex marriage is the same and traditional marriage. Academic outlooks, no hard feelings.
I doubt that homophobia is not rooted in religion. Its always seem to me that people will be homophobic regardless of their religion. Religion doesn't determine how people feel about others. It only gives them reasons to feel how they already do.
I have read that homosexual couples are offended by seeing women breast feeding in public, and even want that ruled out in the constitution.
Nonsense. You probably read that from a very biased source.
..., rights and freedoms for Christians and traditional of many sorts are written into the constitution, ..
To be precise, they were written by Christians. Everything in the constitution was designed to be independent of any one religion.
Bottom line, I don't want to be labeled and hated.
You aren't. That's all in your mind or else someone with a very distorted view of reality convinced you of it. Where did you ever get the idea that Christians are hated or labeled?
We dislike...
Are you claiming that all Christians think the same way that you do?
the Swedish ministers taking a side in the conflict of views and trying to tell us to give up our jobs as priests and pastors. I hate all this hate.
Then stop going around assuming that everyone hates you. That'd be a perfect start.
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In Germany in such as 1938, Jude was a normal word, a name used to label that group of people, and for them to be targeted with actions of hate.
I appreciate that Christians in general are not hated, but if we hold our traditions, and that is essential to be Christian, then a group of protesters, a large number, hate us. They call us homophobes and bigots, which is inaccurate. I know two people with same sex attraction who let people know. I don't mind, but if it means I could lose my freedom, then I respond. Also, in high school I was a victim of some aggressive biguys. It spoiled some of my time at school, stressed me out and led to illness. This was followed by me coming to fear dying so I turned to God in a big way. I forgave them.
In Church history there was a foretold corruption Paul the apostle called the doctrine of demons, that is why the religious in Europe got a marred name. They were cruel and used pagan Rome era punishment and other such evil. The Knights were a remnant of that that can cause us when young, to admire something of the false teaching, before we come back to simple grace. Religion has been a powerful effector in my life. Without it I was just cold and into war movies and the RAAF and USAF. It is sad when religion looking for compassion and kindness instead leads to rejection. I fear rejecting people.
One of my friends who lectures at universities is a bit more open minded than agnostic and is gentle but thinks there is no need for same sex marriage. He is a retirement age man.
"Rights and freedoms are TO BE written into the AUSTRALIAN constitution." I correct my obscure statement which is a suggested solution.
When a Christian speaks against same sex marriage in Australia, others will activate and call them homophobes and bigots. Bigot comes from the French word for hypocrite. It is a derogatory term.
I my OP I mention my view is centre, others are conservative, others still are liberal, and openly allow for same sex marriage in their churches. I see that some people something like me as Christians, we see thing similarly.
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I'm curious as to what it is that you hope to accomplish here? Is there something you wanted to discuss here? If so then please state what it is you wish to discuss. This forum isn't exactly for posting statements that people hate Christians.
I also don't see where you're getting your information from. Where did you get the impression that so many people hate Christians and label them as such?
I assume that you know that there's a big difference between a large number of people feeling a certain way and a large fraction of people feeling that way. They are very different things. In either case please provide some legitimate evidence of such claims. I used to be Christian and and know a lot of Christians and neither I nor they felt that way. You're perceptions seem quite distorted to me.
Also, since this is a worldwide forum you should state where it is that you assert these things are occurring, whose constitution you're speaking of, etc.
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... Bottom line, I don't want to be labeled and hated.
That should be fairly easy.
Make sure you don't do, preach, or support hateful things.
So, for example, make sure that you don't bear false witness by posting stuff that isn't true.
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Here is a report heading from Canberra:
Why Rainbow Activists are complicit in growing LGBTIQ-inspired violence
The ACT head of the Christian Democratic Party, David Kim, had a written death threat placed in his front yard along with destroyed advertising corflutes.
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Why Rainbow Activists are complicit in growing LGBTIQ-inspired violence
Here is a report heading from Canberra:
Why Rainbow Activists are complicit in growing LGBTIQ-inspired violence
The ACT head of the Christian Democratic Party, David Kim, had a written death threat placed in his front yard along with destroyed advertising corflutes.
I asked you where you got the impression that people in general hate Christians. All this response shows is what Lyle Shelton of the Australian Christian Lobby believes. That is hardly a good source to argue that non-Christians hate all Christians. Is that webpage why you believe that so many people hate you?
I'll ask again - What is/was it that led you to believe that so many people hate Christians?
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When a Christian speaks against same sex marriage in Australia, others will activate and call them homophobes and bigots. Bigot comes from the French word for hypocrite. It is a derogatory term.
That may be your impression of what those terms mean but it doesn't mean that's how they are actually currently understood and defined in the dictionary. What a word currently means is not always the same as what it started out to mean. In this case "bigot" is derived from an Old French derogatory term. See: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bigot#Etymology
But now those terms are defined as follows
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homophobia
irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals
So quite literally if you discriminate against gay people you are in fact defined as a homophobe. Do you discriminate against gay people?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot
a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
Are you intolerant of gays? Are you devoted to your own opinion and prejudices of gay people? If so then you are a bigot. And don't blame the Bible on it. The Bible also says that you must follow the laws of man and the laws of man, at least in the USA and Australia, require that gay people may not legally be discriminated against. Do you adhere to the laws of your country?
You won't see Christian activists speaking out or taking actions against people who take the Lords name in vain. You won't see them killing witches. You won't see them doing a lot of things.
What you will hear from Christians is that they don't drink alcohol based on the belief that its a sin or that God doesn't want people to drink alcohol. In fact the Bible tells us that Jesus actually drank wine in moderation.
Luke 7:33-34: For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and you say, He has a devil. 34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and you say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a drunkard, a friend of publicans and sinners!
The Bible also states that God created wine to gladden the hearts of men. I.e.
Ps. 104:14-15:: “You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart.”
Here's a specific case of a Christian attempting to argue against drinking alcohol
https://www.crossroadschristian.org/blogs/blog/12806077-can-a-christian-drink-alcohol
He makes silly arguments and confuses drinking alcohol with getting drunk, which is quite illogical. I myself hate getting drunk but I do so love certain alcoholic drinks such as Kailua Sombreros, Pearl Harbors and a nice glass of wine, preferably Merlot . I even love Kailua in my coffee. I even like it when those drinks "gladden my heart."
Does the Bible tell me that I should drink or that drinking will make my life better? No. Of course not. But it also doesn't say that bowling, exercise, reading stories or watching a movie is something I have to do or that it will make my life better. I do argue that they will.
Frankly I find it disgusting to judge someone based solely on inherited traits. Christians have long assumed, and falsely I might add, that being gay has nothing to do with inheritance. They appear to have based that opinion based on the fact the in identical twins one can be gay while the other is straight. That confuses genetics with epigenetics.
For further reading see Scientists May Have Finally Unlocked Puzzle of Why People Are Gay
https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/12/11/scientists-may-have-finally-unlocked-puzzle-of-why-people-are-gay
The hereditary link of homosexuality has long been established, but scientists knew it was not a strictly genetic link, because there are many pairs of identical twins who have differing sexualities. Scientists from the National Institute for Mathematical and Biological Synthesis say homosexuality seems to have an epigenetic, not a genetic link.
So why would you, as a Christian, judge someone for what they inherited? Did it ever occur to you that even God might not have known this? Christians so often think that God knows everything, past present and future. When I was a Christian I assumed that God knew all things knowable. But what makes you think that you, of all people in the universe, actually knows what is knowable or not?
However that didn't stop him from creating those humans whom He had to kill with the great flood and whom he regretted creating, did it? Yep. God was actually sorry that he made man.
Genesis 6-6: And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.
So much for God "knowing" the future ahead of time, huh?
Hmmm. What about the time Jacob wrestled with God, and won!
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+32%3A22-32&version=NLT
28 “Your name will no longer be Jacob,” the man told him. “From now on you will be called Israel,[a] because you have fought with God and with men and have won.”
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28 “Your name will no longer be Jacob,” the man told him. “From now on you will be called Israel,[a] because you have fought with God and with men and have won.”
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30 Jacob named the place Peniel (which means “face of God”), for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been spared.”
Did God let Jacob win? Gee! Wouldn't that be a lie? Tell me Christian. Is there any place in the Bible which tells of God lying? Do Christians think that the Bible tells them not to lie?
The old testament (which condemns gays) is the same document which tells people to stone adulterers. The new testament condemns that action. It also changed what people are allowed to eat. It remained silent on gays. Did it really never occur to one single Christian that perhaps today we should no longer condemn them? Come on Christians. Stop being so judgmental about gays.
The moral of the story: Don't assume scientists don't know the Bible. I read it cover to cover twice.
A few more questions: What is it about homosexuality that bothers Christians so much? Is it because they don't love the "correct" sex in the "correct" way? Is it the sexual act itself? Hint: do what I do and don't think of it.
Last question: If you found out that your cat or dog was gay would you disown them or send them to the pound? There was actually a woman who disowned her cat because she thought it was gay.
If you don't think that there are gay animals, think again: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150206-are-there-any-homosexual-animals
Funny story: Not that I think of it, I might actually be the proud daddy of a gay cat. :) My little Scooter, a boy cat. often jumps on the back of his brother biting the scruff of his neck and almost appears like he's going to "do" him. This is how cats prepare to mate in fact. My cat may be/is gay and I'm proud of him. ROTFL!!!
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Hi PmbPhy, Bible interpretation, there are so many views! Catholic, Evangelical, Charismatic... ancient, medieval, modern, current...
Christians want peace for themselves, so wholeness. And for our significant others, and strangers. Heterosexual activity is best, healthiest, most fruitful, when thought out and done in love, as we aim for it.
Love is the message and goal. But it is a high calling, not body passion.
Yes I suppose this isn't the best place to discuss the Bible.
Thanks for the definitions. In regards to bigots, I think I have met some. I have tried not to judge others as in groups or even individuals. The hardest groups to face up to are terrorists and psychopaths. Judging others is not right in Matthew 7:1-5.
Homosexuality and not judging is mentioned again by Paul in Romans 1:22-2:4. So we must not judge homosexuals... We don't judge them and become polite, but now we get judged if we do not trust politicians for the small group. Trusting politicians? No one does that, why now must we trust the odd ones out we didn't even vote for? Is that rational? No.
We may rationally fear for our freedoms and children's rights and wholeness. We want them to love and worship Jesus, at least us Christians do this. There are other religions and atheists like Dawkins who stress faith to be understood to understand England and English.
Minorities and even overwhelming majorities do not democratically rightly have the power to crush little minorities like JWs. It seems some people have not learned to value democracy and good manners. It looks more like team versus team and hooliganism. Something missing in schools? It looks then like bigotry is normal, or at least poor manners. So bad behaviour is normal across the board, and people who call other people bigots are probably bigots themselves while the polite ones are probably not really bigots.
A person without irrational fear and aversion can be nasty for other reasons. These thoughts trending are not well thought out.
I lastly add, in a Christian forum I was judged and hated, I really felt it, as I rationally anticipated what can go wrong. And if not rationally, following Biblical prophecy. Theology, not everyone thinks it is logical.
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Thank you all for your contributions:
As a point of reference, let it be known the the Jews had been mistreated, beaten and their property destroyed well before 1934, the year when the leader of the "Brown Shirts" Ernst Röhm ( a well known child abuser) had commitment a forced suicide, under SS induction.
1938 was the year of the "Crystal Night", when books and properties of the "Jews" where burnt for two days, and deportation of Jewish People began in earnest.
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In my opinion, State and Religion should be separated.
For myself, my church ticks right inside me-
I am not a friend of the organized religion,
but I tolerate those which have other needs.
And I keep it in the same way with my sexuality,
Love is where Love falls,
and the permutation does not matter to me either,
as long as the laws are being observed ,
I could care less.
Politics and Religion are a great source of conflict in our
modern time. I'm the staunchest upholder to maintain
the freedom of expression.
But will resist Tyranny, wherever it happen to cross my path.
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Face it, the sooner we rid the world of religion, the happier we will all be.
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In my opinion it is important not to destroy peoples believe systems,
Education is the only leveler.
May be.
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Marx idea was no religion, after Wilberforce applied spirituality. Both were popular but Wilberforce wins over as a success where Marx failed, meaning communism failed. Yet people like Marx and hate Wilberforce and current day spiritual, and some religious.
Just calling it religious philosophy, it better than the secular alternate, because it revises better. Religious philosophy which has a branch in science, looks back on WW2 and hates the loss of peace. It recognizes the Jews. Secular philosophers seem to find that Israel is an apartheid state, and that some people's lives really aren't worth living, and the new things are abortions, millions of them, and one child each couples.
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Communism failed, eh? Apart from dragging China from the 15th to the 20th century in one lifetime, turning Russia into an industrial power capable of defeating Hitler, occupying half of Germany for longer than Europe had ever known peace previously, forming at least as many Italian governments as any other political system, providing a half-decent standard of living in Cuba, kicking the French and Americans out of Vietnam, almost overthrowing fascism in Chile....yes, I guess it failed. It was brilliantly overthrown in Afghanistan by the CIA supporting a charming bunch of religious fanatics who are now resolved to kill everyone else in the name of God.
Most people's lives aren't worth living, partly thanks to religious wars and partly thanks to religious doctrines that encourage them to breed unsustainably. And it isn't just the fault of Islam: buddhists are slaughtering muslims in Myanmar, christians are reverting to savages in northern Ireland, and I've no doubt that the good people of Kashmir have had enough of the rival claims of islam and hinduism. Peaceful once-secular states like Turkey and Egypt are sliding back into mediaeval darkness....
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I should have been more clear, that by religious philosophy, I meant Christian and more in the realm of the spiritual over the religious.
All of China could have become like 1990 Hong Kong. Russia as a country with an arms industry was problematic with regards to the nuclear stand off and Russia being a country making profits from arms sales to our enemies. If good at anything, not cars, fighters... The peace in Europe was with a nuclear stand off and great threat. There was high unemployment. Tens of millions of Russians died at the hands of it's own government. It's troops in Germany led to the report of two million rapes to the East German police. The average IQ of East Germans went down compared to West Germany. The peace in Europe was more due to western think tanks. Democracy learning from secular wars 1 and 2 and the threat of 3. Stalin and Kruschev... were not good. Their folding in 1989 was an admission from the top, from the leaders of the communist world.
China can't be said to be communist anymore, more of a capitalist dictatorship, with rotten human rights standards. The Chinese children should be educated to have two children each.
I did not know northern Ireland was not improving. What will happen in Italy... if they continue to only have one child per couple? Unborn children would now be paying tax for our retirements and providing services, some of them looking after their olds. The Bieber was saved from abortion.
Old Christianity was flawed. Things went wrong in the eighth and ninth century, too political. But there is Christian enlightenment and revival. Can't speak for Islam or Buddhism. I just observe hate towards Christians, Muslims and Sikhs recently.
Would anyone advocate to India that they take the Naxalites more seriously?
Abortion is a threat to life. I hate abortion. Since the non democratic Roe and Wade movement in the 70s, 61,000,000 unborn children have been killed. They have no voice except us. What happens if we lose our voice? Hilary Clinton held the view that up to one month before birth, that the unborn had no human rights. Secularism is poor on human rights. Seems to be losing it's grip on free speech and democracy.
I am sure Wilberforce and the enlightenment in Britain and the USA wins over Russia and China. The USA handled the Cuban Missile Crisis...
I understand there is a separation of church and state. And Christians can win office if they do well, it is fair. Also I agree there ought not be any prophets prophesying policies.
Whether secular or religious there is human nature, which is the real problem. Spirituality is the best answer, in Christ. Wilberforce wrote about Real Christianity. Many rivals had suggested slavery was acceptable. Petitions and tact won.
By a life not worth living, and not needing the Jews, I am referring to Nazism in Germany. And the recent UN hate for Israel, calling it an Apartheid state with the implication that follows, and the example of a Schizophrenic man in his twenties in Belgium who opted for euthanasia, there is no love. Is that secular revision? Secularism is about money. It has that weird 1930s German version of compassion. And big business abortion the Nazis at least hated that. Where is the love of life? In Europe and to to the rest, we would not know of love without Christ compelling our weak human nature.
So there seems to be hate in secularism. And to any who disagree with their own view, even other atheists.
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You should have a word with your god about abortion. At least one human pregnancy in three aborts spontaneously, thanks to Her Defective Design, so obviously She doesn't share your concerns. But since She also created hurricanes, tsunamis and syphilis, She doesn't appear to care as much about human life as some of us secularists who try, during office hours, to mitigate the effects of Divine Will.
Yes, it's about money. If I didn't get paid for helping to heal the sick, I probably wouldn't bother. Cynical? Less so, I think, than those who get paid for telling you that disease and suffering are all a part of a Great Plan which has something to do with singing, candles and incense.
I am sure Wilberforce and the enlightenment in Britain and the USA wins over Russia and China.
Interestingly, slavery was outlawed in Russia about 100 years before the UK or the USA. Not sure about China. But don't let the facts spoil a good argument!
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Sorry for annoying you Alan. I know zygotes die. But everyone dies, I do not know about blaming God for that. I suppose some natural disasters are from God as judgement, others from malevolence. I thought that a scientist would not believe either exist. Christians blame suffering on malevolence, either directly or indirectly.
Old England had inspiration! Marx works did not turn out so well, and are more worked on. I think the earlier is more social. Russia and China were not always followers of Marx ideas, such as 100 years before Wilberforce.
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Belief is acceptance of a hypothesis in the absence of facts. Faith is acceptance of a hypothesis in the face of facts. Science is about testing fact-based hypotheses, quite different from either.
I haven't blamed anyone or anything because I don't have a god to blame, I'm not so stupid as to believe that malevolence exists as an independent entity (and who (a) hates all the citizens of Fukushima or Dominica enough to destroy entire communities, and (b) has the power to do so? Only your god) whilst christians kill each other in the name of Jesus (when they aren't killing people of other faiths and none, which thankfully has become rather unfashionable) I can't respect their traditions or philosophies, or worry too much about intentional abortions.
You choose your faith, so it's your problem, as long as you don't try to use it to justify your actions, when it becomes my problem, or natural disasters, when it becomes everyone's problem..
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"The evil that men do lives after them; The good is oft interred with their bones."
The evil perpetrated in the name of religion is what makes the news – bad news sells newspapers.
It’s very easy, and understandable, for those of us who do not adhere to the dictates of a specific organised religion to see only the bad, and to feel justified in raging against it.
There are people who do good things in the name of God, or religion, but it is harder to find out about them; partly because the media is, largely, not interested, and partly, because they tend to be less “in your face” than are the agents of hate.
Some years ago I was talking to a Catholic Priest who was a member of a missionary order doing medical work in Africa. To my surprise, he said he believed we had no right to say to anyone: “my beliefs are right, and yours are wrong”.
I’ve thought quite a lot about that since, and I wonder if it is reasonable to argue that I have no right to tell you that your beliefs are wrong. Even if you believe that those who hold different views should be killed, only if/when you might act on those beliefs does it become anyone else’s concern.
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It is inevitable that when you attach a religious or political label to yourself you will immediately be hated for it by other people who rightly or wrongly associate that label with hate. This happens because of associations with bigotry and immorality tied to that label because of the hate speech in holy texts and manifestos - if you stick a label on yourself which has any such hate associated with it, you are inviting people to hate you because you are inadvertently endorsing that hate. The way to guard against this is never to use the label on its own, but to qualify it with an additional name which marks you out as a member of a subset of that group which specifically condemns and rejects all the hate speech tied to that religion/philosophy so that it is always absolutely clear that you are not endorsing hate, and people should be able to look up that label to see a list of all the hate speech associated with the main label which you have rejected (and to see a list of any hate speech which you have failed to reject). Then they will be able to judge you fairly. No one does this though - they just use the main label and don't make it clear whether they endorse or reject the hate associated with it, and then from these groups come fanatical individuals with guns and bombs who think they can act on that hate on the behalf of all the people who describe themselves using that label. By not labelling yourselves with greater precision, you accidentally help to propagate hate, so this is something that everyone needs to look at and to fix. (Urgently.)
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yes hate for sin exists in the Bible but not for the ones who act sin out. It can sound like scripture if people quote it despite anger. Scripture says to pull people out of sin, hating even the clothing stained by sin. In Greece a man was sleeping with his father's second wife. He may have been widowed. This young man was disciplined. Today people would assume St Paul and God hated him.
There is an essential goodness in interpreting the NT, some already found in English tradition, but forgotten by non theists.
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I have respect for people who say "because I think X, I joined group A to get things done". I have nothing but contempt for anyone who says "because I belong to group B, I think Y and do Z".
No compunction about saying "your beliefs are wrong" if I can demonstrate why the hypothesis is not supported by the facts. But the problem with faith is that it is not susceptible to rational argument, so it is harmless at best and malignant at worst.
I've always found it odd that T S Eliot, despite his Anglo-Catholicism, wrote "the last temptation is the greatest treason: to do the right thing for the wrong reason". That's way out of even my league of disdain!
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Would words like caritas, veritas, love, charity, justice, compassion or grace exist or matter if there were no Jews or Jesus? If we were pagans and atheists from such? Would pederasty still be normal?
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Would words like caritas, veritas, love, charity, justice, compassion or grace exist or matter if there were no Jews or Jesus? If we were pagans and atheists from such? Would pederasty still be normal?
You think such recent religions invented those words? "Grace", perhaps, but it's very specifically about God's mercy. The other words exist independently in languages which had no contact with those religions. As for pederastry, it seems to be most commonly practised by people using religious institutions as cover for their activities.
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Pederasty was normal in Rome and all the ancient world, except for Israel. So it is described in Wikipedia. Today without Israel, it would be an age old tradition. I think slowly and too slowly, the religious institution of the Catholic Church has learned to deal with abusers of the system. How many new reports are there?
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Imho, the ultra neo liberalism is off the hook and it has / will have catastrophic impact on western culture. We'll either ruin our civilization, go in to a war with the east or become really misreable. Honeslty, it feels bad nowadays to be from a traditional christian family and get hated on for being against new ideas in the world.
Look up Gavin McIness. The guy always cracks me up. Also, he is speaking the truth.
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Pederasty was normal in Rome and all the ancient world, except for Israel. So it is described in Wikipedia. Today without Israel, it would be an age old tradition. I think slowly and too slowly, the religious institution of the Catholic Church has learned to deal with abusers of the system. How many new reports are there?
Surely the problem is with abusers of children, not abusers of "the system" - what system?
And as for "how many reports" the real problem has always been how many cases were unreported because religious hierarchies managed to suppress, protect, intimidate, or convince kids that it was normal.
By their deeds shall ye know them.
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I have respect for people who say "because I think X, I joined group A to get things done"
So Nazis, Clan members and Jihadists are among those you respect?
I suspected you were more open minded than you would have us believe. :)
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Pederasty was normal in Rome and all the ancient world, except for Israel. So it is described in Wikipedia. Today without Israel, it would be an age old tradition. I think slowly and too slowly, the religious institution of the Catholic Church has learned to deal with abusers of the system. How many new reports are there?
Surely the problem is with abusers of children, not abusers of "the system" - what system?
And as for "how many reports" the real problem has always been how many cases were unreported because religious hierarchies managed to suppress, protect, intimidate, or convince kids that it was normal.
By their deeds shall ye know them.
The system is the church, sermons and confessionals, introducing children to the sacraments, looking after camps and youth groups and the Catholic schooling system... Untowards men took positions they were not fit for, or even to gain access to children to abuse them. In Wikipedia, pederasty is the training of youths to be homosexual. It was normal in Rome...
I suspect the Catholic confessional system has been modified to be used to stop emerging abusers.
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There's a world of difference between respect and agreement.
The founders of the organisations you named were far from stupid or irrational in promoting their own interests, which is why they flourished. Doesn't make them, or their followers, any more tolerable than dysentery - another of God's wonderful creations. But it does mean that you have to be pretty clever to eliminate them, just like any other social disease.
Lack of respect for the enemy has been the downfall of many campaigns.
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Religious organisations can't be blamed for undesirable people misusing them for other ends - the predators will always go to where the children are easiest to find. They arguably can be blamed though for covering things up and shuffling paedophiles around instead of getting the police involved to rehouse them more appropriately, but I encountered a paedophile once (a sports coach) and he was one of the most friendly, kind people you could ever hope to meet. It was all an act, of course, but they become experts in winning friends and are then protected by loyalty from the people who they've fooled, friends of a forgiving disposition who are automatically inclined to defend them and make excuses for them. Gullibility is the problem - people see fake friendship as real and find it very hard to get their head around the fact that their valued friend who seems to suffer from a problem he can't control is actually a cold, clinical child abuser who doesn't give a damn about anyone other than himself. Many priests who aren't paedophiles are simple enough to believe that a friend who turns out to be a predator is a victim of Satan and would be best helped by God through a lot of prayer rather than punishment, and that's why the problem has been so bad in religious institutions - they mean well, but they provide ideal opportunities and cover for people who exploit their love of repentant sinners.