Naked Science Forum
On the Lighter Side => That CAN'T be true! => Topic started by: Andrew K Fletcher on 22/04/2008 17:13:12
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My wife has had a problem for a long time now. When she eats a cooked meal within just a few minutes she runs to the toilet to empty herself. Her food goes right through her. Oddly enough, I have also been experiencing problems with acidic or maybe even alkaline burning and soreness around my backside, using nappy cream to help ease the problem. But not all the time which is very odd. It appears that something is irritating our bowels.
We went on holiday with a friend who has irritable bowel Syndrome (IBS) and My wife shared her own experience with hot food with her to see if the symptoms were the same as hers. Indeed there was a correlation. After a long chat they got talking about trigger foods to determine what the problem was. Bisto Gravy Granules soon surfaced as being a major contributor to our friends IBS. She added under no circumstances can she have this on her meals as it causes a major flare up. We also use this product and have done for many years on roast dinner. Things began to make sense. Anyway, my son has been home from Thailand for over a year now and has learned us all about Thai foods, so the usual roast dinners were becoming far fewer and so were the episodes of diarrhoea and burning ring of fire so to speak. In addition we have been eating quite a number of meals that did not require a drenching with E numbers / Bisto Gravy Granules and all was becoming more and more stable with regards to toilet visits.
Yesterday, my wife just about made it in to the toilet and this morning my stools were very loose also for the first time in ages. Yesterday we had a Lamb chop dinner and Bisto Gravy Granules. We will not be using this product any more!
Ingredients: Potato Starch, Maltodextrin, Salt, Falvourings (contain milk, soya) vegetable oil, Colour (E150c or Ammonia caramel) Flavour Enhancers (E621 or Monosodiumglutamate, E635 Sodium ribonucleotides) Beef Extract, Emulsifier (E322 Lecithin) (Soya), Spice & herb Extracts, Onion Extract.
Why on earth can't they leave our food alone? Why do they have to take a trusted product like Bisto Gravy Powder which contains 1 E number, again unnecesary and then add a load more E numbers hoping that people won't bother to check the contents because they trust the company that makes the stuff to do the right thing and keep our food out of harm's way. In the old days a butcher who sold rotton meat would have his hand chopped off. Maybe we could adopt this age old principle when dealing with those that cause us harm, particularly when it is disguised in the gravy we pour on our food.
E635 : Sodium ribonucleotides
Origin:
Mixture of sodium salts of guanylic (E626) and inosinic acid (E630).
Function & Characteristics:
Flavour enhancer. Guanylates and inosinates do not have the specific umami taste but strongly enhance many other flavours, thereby reducing the amounts of salt or other flavour enhancers needed in a product.
Products:
Used in many products. Mainly used in low sodium/salt products.
Acceptable daily intake (ADI):
None determined. Guanylates and inosinates may not be used in products intended for children under 12 weeks.
Side effects:
Asthmatic people should avoid guanylates and inosinates. As guanylates and inosinates are metabolised to purines, they should be avoided by people suffering from gout. However, the concentrations used are generally so low that no effects are to be expected.
Dietary restrictions:
Guanylates and inosinates are generally produced from meat, but partly also from fish. They are thus not suitable for vegans and vegetarians, and in most cases not suitable for Jews, Muslims and Hindus, depending on the origin of the product. Only the producer can provide information on the origin.
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This is fascinating Andrew .......and I am sorry for your " downstairs issues" which I am happy to hear are a lot better for you and the Mrs.
A good way to make a thick gravy is to get the juices from what ever you are cooking (plus deglazing the pan/tray is a fantastic way).....then just add some cornflour mixed with a little water to thicken it.
If you can handle a stock cube (organic) then chuck that in too.....a teensy bit of sugar really helps also !!
THANK YOU for this valuable information...though it is worth mentioning I suppose that using Bisto (and other types of instant gravy mix) does not automatically mean that people will suffer the same consequences........though the information is welcomed.
Thanks Andrew !
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Glad you found it interesting Neil. We used to make real gravy but then somehow got hoodwinked into gravy granules and didn't realise the connection until a few months ago, and even then remained sceptical until the last episode completely confirmed that Bisto was the culpret.
I have noted your concerns that others might not exhibit the same symptoms and agree with you entirely, but the very fact that something as simple as gravy granules has 4 E numbers in it, one of which is expanded upon must speak volumes about whether we should be putting this stuff in our shopping trolly
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It may not be just the Bisto, although any food additive can irritate the bowl. I too have IBS and can have problems after a roast dinner. I don't use gravy, just meat juices so it is not that for me. I find it is the combination of different types of food that causes the problem.
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I believe we have already eliminated all other possibilities. Wife does not have problems unless we have Bisto GG, so presumably she does not have IBS but does have an allergy to Bisto Gravy Granules, which I hope might help others to investigate what might be causing their problems. Elimination provides us with a path to find the culprits and then once the problem has been resolved all one has to do is go back and do a double cross over by eating the suspect product again and see if the symptoms come back, which is exactly what my wife and I have done.
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I have had a similar problem and this occurred a lot with instant coffee.
Some of these granulated products contain emulsifiers to make them dissolve quicker and I notice that any product with emulsifiers in seems to gives me stomach cramps and bowl problems.
Needless to say I rarely drink instant coffee.
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Just re-read my IBS leaflet and potato is listed as the top baddy to eat if you have IBS along with onion. People with IBS should not drink with their meal but should drink lots inbetween meals. Orange juice with a big meal is a big no-no. You may as well eat bad eggs and sprouts washed down with beans!!!!
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Glad you found it interesting Neil. We used to make real gravy but then somehow got hoodwinked into gravy granules and didn't realise the connection until a few months ago, and even then remained sceptical until the last episode completely confirmed that Bisto was the culpret.
I have noted your concerns that others might not exhibit the same symptoms and agree with you entirely, but the very fact that something as simple as gravy granules has 4 E numbers in it, one of which is expanded upon must speak volumes about whether we should be putting this stuff in our shopping trolly
Thank you Andrew.
You're right of course ..E numbers are horrible. Though I think some indeed are in fact natural ingredients.
Perhaps there's an organic instant gravy alternative.
I am very interested in your situation as tummy issues are rife in my family...my mother and nephew have Chron's disease, my sister Colitis, my sis-in-law also has IBS. Fortunately I'm Ok.
Just get back on that real gravy train eh ?
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The food additives on the ingredients list given "Potato Starch, Maltodextrin, Salt, Falvourings (contain milk, soya) vegetable oil, Colour (E150c or Ammonia caramel) Flavour Enhancers (E621 or Monosodiumglutamate, E635 Sodium ribonucleotides) Beef Extract, Emulsifier (E322 Lecithin) (Soya), Spice & herb Extracts, Onion Extract."
are, in fact, all natural components of food.
I do know someone who suffers from similar symptoms to those mentioned when she eats onions (or garlic, leeks etc).
The E number designation means that the product has been tested and is generally safe (there are, of course, some people who are hypersensitive to all sorts of things; at least the e numbers give them a consistent label to watch out for).
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So my suggestion that it is onion and potato that is causing the problem seems to be confirmed by this, Bored Chem.
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Great point. I was looking at the other additives not the emulsifiers, thanks for this.
I have had a similar problem and this occurred a lot with instant coffee.
Some of these granulated products contain emulsifiers to make them dissolve quicker and I notice that any product with emulsifiers in seems to gives me stomach cramps and bowl problems.
Needless to say I rarely drink instant coffee.
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Good Point BC regarding E numbers. However I do know that MSG is causing a considerable amount of problems and Emulsifiers are another culprit.
These chemicals may begin life as being natural but when they are modified the body reacts quite differently to them. Take organic natural progesterone for example compared to synthetic progesterone. It’s like comparing a cotton shirt to a nylon shirt. Both are shirts but you can’t keep a nylon shirt against your skin without it causing problems.
The food additives on the ingredients list given "Potato Starch, Maltodextrin, Salt, Falvourings (contain milk, soya) vegetable oil, Colour (E150c or Ammonia caramel) Flavour Enhancers (E621 or Monosodiumglutamate, E635 Sodium ribonucleotides) Beef Extract, Emulsifier (E322 Lecithin) (Soya), Spice & herb Extracts, Onion Extract."
are, in fact, all natural components of food.
I do know someone who suffers from similar symptoms to those mentioned when she eats onions (or garlic, leeks etc).
The E number designation means that the product has been tested and is generally safe (there are, of course, some people who are hypersensitive to all sorts of things; at least the e numbers give them a consistent label to watch out for).
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Wife loves Jacket potato, I mean absolutely loves them and we often eat them with faggots and mushy peas (Blackcountry dish) Faggots often come with their own gravy / sauce and we do not appear to have a digestive problem with this meal.
So my suggestion that it is onion and potato that is causing the problem seems to be confirmed by this, Bored Chem.
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Ahhh the sound when you make it to the toilet
B Bowel
I Irritable
S Syndrome
T Toilet
O O is the shape of the toilet roll
(was going to mention something else for o but thought it might be too graphic)
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"These chemicals may begin life as being natural but when they are modified the body reacts quite differently to them. "
They aren't generally modified.
What's the difference between a glutamate ion produced by the natural digestion of protein and one included in the recipe?
How about the glutamate present in parmesan cheese or soy sauce? (they are both loaded with the stuff)? Does it somehow get modified when the label on the bottle says E621 rather than soy sauce?
Even potatoes have more of the stuff than most meat.
http://www.swivel.com/graphs/show/13574179
"It’s like comparing a cotton shirt to a nylon shirt. "
No, it's not, one is made of cotton and the other of nylon.
They are entirely different chemicals and they have different physical properties too.
On the other hand, the glutamate from parmesan is exactly the same as the glutamate from the chemical supplier.
There is no "magic" way to tell "natural" from "artificial" chemicals so there's no way the body can react differently to them.
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Gravy = stock, flour, meat juices, salt pepper, red wine (if you want), water from the spuds or the veg.
Cook it in the meat pan whilst the meat is 'resting' and don't add anything else. It tastes great and looks as dark brown as you want to caramelise the meat.
Faggotts are really easy to make from scratch.
There is an E number for virtually every chemical so they're not all bad!
Cooking your own food from scratch avoids the additives; you may need to be a bit more clever if you want to avoid lumps and curdling but it is just a matter of stirring and choosing your cooking temperature.
Deliah's latest offering is just dollop!
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BC take a look at the difference between natural progesterone and synthetic progesterone to see how the body reacts to both.
"These chemicals may begin life as being natural but when they are modified the body reacts quite differently to them. "
They aren't generally modified.
What's the difference between a glutamate ion produced by the natural digestion of protein and one included in the recipe?
How about the glutamate present in parmesan cheese or soy sauce? (they are both loaded with the stuff)? Does it somehow get modified when the label on the bottle says E621 rather than soy sauce?
Even potatoes have more of the stuff than most meat.
http://www.swivel.com/graphs/show/13574179
"It’s like comparing a cotton shirt to a nylon shirt. "
No, it's not, one is made of cotton and the other of nylon.
They are entirely different chemicals and they have different physical properties too.
On the other hand, the glutamate from parmesan is exactly the same as the glutamate from the chemical supplier.
There is no "magic" way to tell "natural" from "artificial" chemicals so there's no way the body can react differently to them.
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Many thanks for the recipe will ask wifey to test drive it. :)
Gravy = stock, flour, meat juices, salt pepper, red wine (if you want), water from the spuds or the veg.
Cook it in the meat pan whilst the meat is 'resting' and don't add anything else. It tastes great and looks as dark brown as you want to caramelise the meat.
Faggotts are really easy to make from scratch.
There is an E number for virtually every chemical so they're not all bad!
Cooking your own food from scratch avoids the additives; you may need to be a bit more clever if you want to avoid lumps and curdling but it is just a matter of stirring and choosing your cooking temperature.
Deliah's latest offering is just dollop!
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Natural progesterone looks like this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Progesterone-2D-skeletal.png
whereas the artificial stuff looks like this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Progesterone-2D-skeletal.png
They are identical and there's no way the body can act differently towards them.
Now, there are artificial analogues of progesterone, which are not the same stuff and which may well cause different reactions but that's not because they are artificial, it's because they are not the same stuf.
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BC My wife and I have first hand experience using natural progesterone and have used it because of predictions made regarding its use based on sound observations by a well respected doctor. We followed his advice and have observed the same results.
I am also familiar with the fact that synthetic progesterone has been linked to cancer and have been advised by the medical profession that certain types of synthetic progesterone have been banned in the UK because of this.
Unlike progesterone, synthetic progestins are not molecularly identical to the hormones found naturally in the body. Synthetic progestins were first developed for use as contraceptive agents. Because the half-life of natural progesterone is very short, researchers sought an agent that would produce longer-lasting, more potent effects than natural progesterone. Birth control pills usually contain a synthetic progestin and a synthetic estrogen. Synthetic progestins are very potent, with just a small dose preventing ovulation and thus functioning as birth control. A slight change in the chemical structure of progesterone has allowed pharmaceutical companies to create patentable and profitable birth control products.
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lef.org%2Fmagazine%2Fmag2006%2Fimages%2Fapr2006_report_progest_03.jpg&hash=f15651198bcc60c11752eb52d02b68ef)
Natural progesterone (above). One example of synthetic progesterone (below)—note the difference in chemical composition as indicated in red.
One of the most common progestins, medroxyprogesterone acetate (Provera®), has been linked to blood clots, fluid retention, acne, rashes, weight gain, and depression. Progestins are also able to bind to glucocorticoid, androgen, and mineralocorticoid receptors, which explains the wide range of side effects many women experience while taking progestins.17,18 The vast majority of research studies have been conducted using progestins rather than natural progesterone, which explains the disparity and negativity of the results.
Source:http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2006/apr2006_report_progesterone_01.htm (http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2006/apr2006_report_progesterone_01.htm)
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OK my theory still stands and it is the onion you are allergic to. If you read any info. on IBS they always give this as the thing to avoid.
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Nope. Jude loves onions, raw, cooked, fried, boiled, leeks, garlic, wild garlic onion is used in many foods we eat that do not affect her one bit. In fact we just went out to a fireds who most certainly does not use Bisto Gravy Granules but makes her gravy from boiling bones, red wine, rosmary meat juices etc and Jude had no problems after. Bisto Browns Bisto Seasons Bisto thickens and makes you go! :(
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"Unlike progesterone, synthetic progestins are not molecularly identical to the hormones found naturally in the body."
OK that's exactly my point. They are not the same so the body can tell them apart.
The stuff pictured below progesterone isn't progesterone, it's medroxyprogesterone acetate
What I have been saying is that the body cannot distinguish natural materials from synthetic ones.
That's not the same as saying it can't distinguish progesterone from medroxyprogesterone acetate.
The fact is that medroxyprogesterone acetate isn't synthetic progesterone- it's something else.
There's nothing magic about "natural" compounds; this was established in 1828.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_W%C3%B6hler
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Nope. Jude loves onions, raw, cooked, fried, boiled, leeks, garlic, wild garlic onion is used in many foods we eat that do not affect her one bit. In fact we just went out to a fireds who most certainly does not use Bisto Gravy Granules but makes her gravy from boiling bones, red wine, rosmary meat juices etc and Jude had no problems after. Bisto Browns Bisto Seasons Bisto thickens and makes you go! :(
Perhaps they should sell it next to the laxatives! Do you remember the chocolate with the pictures of the toilets on...Ex-Lax. You could call it Bistolax.
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Irritable bowel syndrome
IBS can cause repeated long-term bouts of pain
Irritable bowel sydrome (IBS) is a condition which causes pain and misery to millions of people worldwide.
However, it remains something of a mystery to medical science.
What is it?
As the name suggests, IBS is a disorder which affects the lower digestive tract.
The contents of the bowel are moved along by a rhythmic tightening and relaxation of the muscles of the intestinal wall - a process called peristalsis.
It appears that peristalsis is stronger and more frequent in people with IBS.
This can cause a wide range of symptoms, including regular abdominal pain, diarrhoea and constipation.
Who gets it?
The condition is thought to affect up to one in five of the population.
However, it may be even more common because it is thought that many people never seek a medical opinion.
It is particuarly common among people aged 20 to 30, and twice as common in women than men.
What are the symptoms?
The main symptoms of IBS are:
Repeated abdominal pains and tenderness
Diarrhoea
Constipation
A bloated feeling
Headache
Other symptoms can include:
Burping
Bad breath
Tiredness
Nausea
A sense of incomplete emptying after going to the toilet
What causes IBS?
Nobody knows for sure.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/medical_notes/5306656.stm
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Product Development
It's not just rival products that Bisto has to beat, the brand also has to remain healthy and contemporary.
Over the last century there have been enormous changes to how and what we eat, most notably in the last 25 years.
The family is far less likely to sit down to a traditional roast dinner every evening and far more likely to eat separately - wanting something convenient and quick.
Bisto history
1908 - Powder launched
1919 - Bisto Kids born
1979 - Granules launched
1984 - Relaunched granules and new onion granules
1991 - 'Best' is launched
2000 - "Aah Bisto" slogan re-introduced after 13 years
Bisto has had to adapt.
New product development over the years has included Bisto granules, which came on the market in 1979 with the advent of the kettle.
The granules that dissolve in hot water got a make-over in the 1990's and a new product, Bisto Best, arrived on our shelves.
Best is a premium product sold in a glass jar to give it an air of quality as well as convenience. The majority of product is now sold in granule form.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/working_lunch/education/2332415.stm
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Irritable bowel syndrome
Who gets it?
The condition is thought to affect up to one in five of the population.
However, it may be even more common because it is thought that many people never seek a medical opinion.
It is particuarly common among people aged 20 to 30, and twice as common in women than men.
What causes IBS?
Nobody knows for sure.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/medical_notes/5306656.stm
If you look at the dates that Bisto Gravy Granules were introduced and later modified it would appear that there is a link relating to the ages that are most likely to develop IBS in the other BBC Report. Is it a coincidence that this age group closely matches the introduction of this product? How many other products have the same combination of additives?
When were these aditives introduced in other products?
The older generation would continue to make their own version of gravy unaffected by the product, whereas the younger generations would be using these faster easier products more frequently.
Incidentally, the Bisto Powder has only 1 additive and this product does not affect my wife.
Just a coincidence? I think not!
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BC You go your way and I will continue to go my way with regards to what I eat and drink. I do not do Hydrogenated vegetable or even partially Hydrogenated Vegetable oil (in anything) I do not eat many E numbers other than those that sneak past my guard like those in Bisto Gravy Granules where you least expect them to be. I even skin fruit nowadays because of the chemicals they spray on them, and I agree I have eaten lots of e numbers in the past and lived to tell the tale.
Progesterone from the Wild Yam compared to that extracted from the urine of a pregnant Horse to me at least seems a long way off being identical. The way we analyse these compounds may well at present show them to be very close in structure, but this does not mean they are identical when administered and a few years down the road from now who is to say that the way we analyse compounds in future might not itself follow a less than identical route when compared to what we know today?
I know we have a lot of disagreements BC. But I do respect you and your views very much, and in no way would I ever want to try to belittle you or your vast knowledge of chemical compounds.
With regards to Bisto Gravy Granules, which was the argument in this thread. We have identified it as being the primary cause of Jude’s problem with her bowels having eliminated everything else by eating different meals without using it, including roast dinners made with natural gravy. We are not sure what it is about the product that causes Jude and others to get diarrhoea after eating this, and probably never will know which of the ingredients or combination of ingredients is causing it. But causing it, “it most definitely is”!
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"I know we have a lot of disagreements BC. But I do respect you and your views very much, and in no way would I ever want to try to belittle you or your vast knowledge of chemical compounds."
Then stop doing so.
When I tell you that progesterone is progesterone don't tell me it isn't. Don't say things like "Progesterone from the Wild Yam compared to that extracted from the urine of a pregnant Horse to me at least seems a long way off being identical." unless you have some evidence that they are not identical.
Do you imagine the little molecules sitting there discussing how it was better in the old days when they were in a mare's bladder? If the molecules can't remember, then how could the body know?
Don't insult the whole of the profession of chemistry by saying things like "The way we analyse these compounds may well at present show them to be very close in structure, but this does not mean they are identical ".
Do you understand enough about chemistry to make that statement with any authority?
No- of course you don't- if you did you would know it's nonsense.
This is a scientific website- stop posting this sort of stuff here because it isn't science
As for
"I do not eat many E numbers other than those that sneak past my guard "
It just shows that you don't seem to understand that the world is made of chemicals and some of them have e numbers. Vitamin C has an E number- if you really avoided E300 you would be dead from scurvy. What about E1510?
Do you really get by without alcohol? Even if you don't drink do you not know that it's present in a lot of fruit etc due to natural fermentation.
Do you think gold (which is "E numbered" as a colourant) is worth avoiding?
I asked the question before (and nobody has answered yet).
How can glutamate derived from soy sauce be any different, from the body's point of view, from glutamate produced "artificially"?
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http://www.askdrhelen.com/hormone-replacement-therapy/bioidentical-diosgenin.html
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Tell me about it, I'm having a bout at the moment. Did you know that you can also get irritable bladder too. They quite often occur together. I would call it overactive rather than irritable. I have read a really good book called 'stop your belly aching.' It is by Dr. Mansfield ISBN 0-285-63618-9.
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Jude has improved to the point where she is no longer having any problems. I believe we have nailed the product that was disrupting her body functions. She did have a problem with her bladder at the same time oddly enough, thanks for mentioning this.
May I suggest that you make a note of what you have eaten or drank when you get a flare up of IBS to see if there is a product there every time you get symptoms. It may even be several different products that contain the same ingredients, but could prove very interesting.
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BC "I don't seem to understand that the World is made up of chemicals"? I would rather get my vitamins and minerals from fruit and vegetables in my diet rather than from some chemical company making a fortune out of patents thanks :)Although I do have vitamin C tabs and cod liver oil and fish oil at hand. I also prefer natural products providing they don't have anything in them that should not be there like parabans etc.
I said I do not belittle you. So why do you try to belittle me? I DO NOT INSULT THE WHOLE OF THE CHEMISTRY PROFESSION BY SAYING THAT THE WAY WE ANALYSE CHEMICALS TODAY MIGHT NOT BE THE SAME IN THE FUTURE. This is a fact! it's called progress!
Several times now you have threatend my right to post on this forum by saying my posts are unscientific and unwelcome here.
Uncomfortable maybe, unscientific to you maybe, to my wife her IBS has now stopped! Go figure that out.
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Psychosomatic is often used as a label for Irritable Bowel Syndrome and for many other conditions that are not fully understood.
For the record. My wife has not had a single episode of IBS since we abandoned Bisto Gravy Granules.
Our meals taste very different now and the variety of ways we now make our gravy enhances the meal bringing out the many varied flavours of the vegetables rather than masking the flavours.
This has been a great learning curve for our culinary skills, we are still trying to get the consistency of the gravy right but its becoming an enjoyable test. We have found that you need to mix the plain flour with some fat from the meat and fry the flour turning it into rue before adding the water from the boiled vegetables. Adding an oxo cube enhances the colour and flavour, though boiling up some boned will also provide excellent stock for the gravy.
Anyway. (pats himself on the back) We have solved my wife’s long standing problem in a scientific elimination process and can say in all honesty that Psychosomatic is not applicable to my wife’s IBS.
Now, obviously whatever is in this product is going to show up in many other products and we have not isolated the culprit completely, but we are now very close to finding it out.
What we need now is for other IBS sufferers to identify a product that may be causing their problems and sharing it with us on here by listing the ingredients and if you will excuse the pun (Intended) Let’s get to the bottom of this.
1: Pharmacol Ther. 2004 Nov;104(2):137-62. Links
Uroguanylin and guanylin peptides: pharmacology and experimental therapeutics.Forte LR Jr.
Medical Research Service, Harry S Truman Memorial Veteran's Hospital, and Department of Medical Pharmacology and Physiology, School of Medicine, University of Missouri, 800 Hospital Drive, Columbia, MO 65201, United States. lrf@missouri.edu
Guanylin, uroguanylin, and the bacterial heat-stable enterotoxin (ST) peptides comprise a new family of cyclic guanosine 3'-5' monophosphate (cGMP)-regulating agonists. The discovery of guanylin and uroguanylin peptides stems from studies of cellular mechanisms underlying a form of secretory diarrhea caused by enteric bacteria. Guanylin, uroguanylin, and microbial ST peptides activate a common apical membrane receptor-guanylate cyclase (R-GC) that elicits large increases in the intestinal secretion of chloride and bicarbonate via the intracellular second messenger, cGMP. Guanylin and uroguanylin were isolated from rat jejunum and opossum urine, respectively. These peptides are endogenous peptide hormones that physiologically regulate R-GC signaling proteins in target cells. Physiological roles for these peptides include the regulation of epithelial cell balance in the intestinal epithelium and modulation of sodium balance through actions in the kidney. The guanylin-uroguanylin-ST peptides are candidate therapeutic agents targeting receptors in the intestine, kidney, and other epithelia. For example, uroguanylin has anti-tumor actions in an animal model for human colon cancer. The ST peptides can be used as diagnostic agents to detect secondary colon cancers by single photon-emitting computed tomography (SPECT) imaging, thus localizing metastatic forms of colon cancer. Other examples of potential therapeutic applications for the guanylin family of cGMP-regulating agonists are: (1) the irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) with constipation, (2) salt-dependent forms of high blood pressure, (3) liver regeneration and repair, and (4) respiratory diseases such as asthma. Competitive pharmacological antagonists of bacterial ST peptides offer a means for treating the diarrhea caused by ST-secreting strains of enteric bacteria.
PMID: 15518884 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
1: Ann Allergy. 1985 Jun;54(6):538-40.Links
Irritable bowel syndrome and hypersensitivity to food.Petitpierre M, Gumowski P, Girard JP.
Food hypersensitivity as a cause of irritable bowel syndrome was investigated by means of exclusion diet and blind provocation. Twelve atopic and twelve non-atopic individuals entered into the study. Skin ***** testing with 20 foods and food additives and RAST specific for food only, were done in all cases. Serum IgE level was also measured. In 14 patients one or several food or additives were shown to induce the typical symptoms of IBS. In at least nine cases of atopy, an IgE-mediated mechanism could be incriminated. Among other potential pathogenetic mechanisms, the presence in the intestinal tract of yeast (Candida albicans, Geotrichum candidum) seems to be of major importance. Yeast apparently favor the development of allergic as well as pseudo-allergic reactions, at least in some patients. Finally, at least in atopic patients complaining of IBS, it is of importance to search for a food component. Dramatic clinical improvements can result from the introduction of an adequate exclusion diet.
PMID: 4014782 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Do we really need more drugs to combat IBS? Look where the research is going now........
1: Expert Opin Investig Drugs. 2008 Feb;17(2):117-30. Links
Recent developments in the therapy of irritable bowel syndrome.Saad RJ, Chey WD.
Division of Gastroenterology, Department of Medicine, University of Michigan Medical Center, Ann Arbor, MI, USA.
There is tremendous activity and excitement in the arena of drug development for the treatment of the irritable bowel syndrome (IBS). Pharmacologic therapy has been largely limited to gut acting therapeutic agents including antidiarrheals, laxatives and antispasmodics that primarily target individual symptoms. Various antidepressants have gained popularity although their efficacy in clinical trials has been modest and their clinical utility is limited by untoward side effects. Serotonergic agents have demonstrated efficacy on the global symptoms of IBS; however, recent concerns about safety have severely limited their use. Recent discoveries regarding the pathophysiology of IBS have revealed numerous potential therapeutic targets. Agents under development include newer serotonergic agents and antidepressants; chloride channel, guanylate cyclase, opioid and motilin receptor ligands; various central, peripheral and autonomic neural receptor ligands; and gut immune modulators.
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"I would rather get my vitamins and minerals from fruit and vegetables in my diet rather than from some chemical company making a fortune out of patents thanks :)"
Fine, just don't pretend that ascorbic acid is any different just because it's in an orange rather than a pill.
Both the pill and the orange are made of chemicals- in the case of the orange it's mainly H2O.
I know that chemistry makes progress, as do most things. However we already know exactly what atoms are present and in exactly what places for most of the chemicls like glutamate or progesterone that have been discussed here.
There's nothing more to discover about their identity- though we may find new properties or uses for the.
The point remains (and so far you have steadfastly refused to address it) that these chemicals are the same whether they are "natural" or "synthetic".
To claim that we are sudenly goint to experience some epiphany and find that they differ is plainly unscientific since you are unable to offer anty evidence or even a reasonable theory to justify the claim.
"Several times now you have threatend my right to post on this forum by saying my posts are unscientific and unwelcome here. "
That's simply not true; I'm not in a position to threaten anyone's right to post here- not that I would wish to.
"Uncomfortable maybe, unscientific to you maybe, to my wife her IBS has now stopped! Go figure that out."
What exactly does "unscientific to you " mean?
Either it's based on science- ie the evidence, or it's not. If something's scientifically true then it's scientific for all observers- not just me.
Re " Go figure that out" and "Anyway. (pats himself on the back) We have solved my wife’s long standing problem in a scientific elimination process and can say in all honesty that Psychosomatic is not applicable to my wife’s IBS."
That's only true if you did the testing double blind.
Did you? If not then the evidence certainly doesn't rule out a psychosomatic effect and that would be my guess as to the cause.
Whatever the cause and cure I'm glad to know she's feeling better.
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Unscientific to you means:
We did not know what was causing my wife's problem. We knew it was hot roast dinners and at first believed it was just that the food was hot. Then we got to learn about Bisto Gravy Granules from a friend and began to put it all together and finally eliminated it from our diet. We have since learned of several other friends and family who have had the same reaction to this product but did not realise it was the Bisto until they began to reflect on what caused the problem to flare up.
Symptoms after eating Bisto are uncomfortable obvious bloat for both my wife and I and neighbour next door. And friend who told us about Bisto. Interesting with neighbour next door she and her husband only get this problem when eating out and not all the time, as she does not use the product. She also said there is a likelihood that this product is used in the food also rather than just gravy to pour on the meal.
My own problem (sore ass) has completely resolved also. Coincidence? I think not.
Double blind controlled study? Nope you got me there, however as were blinded to the fact that it was the gravy to begin with does this count? And when we ate meals that did not contain this product and had no effect on either of us before we knew what was causing it does this count?
Who we going to get to do a controlled study on Bisto Gravy Granules and who is going to fund it?
None of the above is scientific to you, but it’s the best I can do with my limited resources and common sense.
Vitamin C from an orange or indeed from blackcurrant contains a lot more than just the isolated compound + whatever is added to form the chemicals into a solid shiny tablet and extend it’s shelf life.
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Umm.... I think you guys are talking at cross purposes. I suspect one or both of you of deriving amusement from this fact, since I think you're both bright enough to realise what the other is saying (or maybe you're too cross to notice). Either way, for the benefit of readers who don't already know this:
Vitamin C is a specific molecule with specific atoms in specific positions relative to each other. It is the same, absolutely and irrefutably the same, regardless of what it's mixed with. That's the point about molecules.
In an orange or a blackcurrant there is a pleasing quantity of vitamin C, which is essential for metabolism and a dietary requirement in humans, and there's a load of other stuff, water, sugars, proteins, fatty acids, DNA, RNA, and so forth. There is also an assortment on other small molecules of various sorts. Some of these may be good for you. Some may even help you take up vitamin C (or, equally, supress the amount of vitamin C you take up), I have no idea.
In a vitamin C tablet there's vitmin C, and chalk. Often some sweetners, and usually some frankly unpleasant orange flavouring. Equally, you can buy (or could when I was a child) a powder containing nothing but ascorbic acid (AKA vitamin C).
Incidetally, if you want to have a look at the molecular structure of vitamin C, here's the wikipedia article with a picture of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C
Oh yes, and... Andrew's observations are just that. Mildly interesting, certainly if I were suffering from the symptoms described (and ate Bisto, which I don't, I think it's vile stuff) I'd be inclined to try cutting it out. There could easily be something in bisto that disagrees with some people. If it were me I'd be inclined to acquire as many of the seperate ingredients as I could and experiment with them one by one (ideally getting someone else to put one or none in my dinner at random when I wasn't looking, so that it was blinded if not double blinded). It still wouldn't be much cop as a study, but I'd be doing it for my own satisfaction and to work out what the problem ingredient was. If I found one I might write to Bisto and tell them.
Infact, if you really think Bisto is making you and your friends ill you should probably write to them anyway, although I doubt you'd get much response.
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The interesting point remains that there's nothing in Bisto that isn't in plenty of other foods. If removing bisto from the diet solves the problem, but does so without actually removing the things in it (because they will be elsewhere in the diet), that's puzzling.
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Thanks Rosy, a woman’s touch goes a long way to crystallise words in a coherent manner that is often quite humbling to witness.
BC I agree with your last post and would love to try to isolate the part that does it, however, I am hoping that eventually we will see others reporting about products they suspect do the same and we can then look for duplication on ingredients. This might be more acceptable to my wife than slipping something in her diet that might have her dashing to the toilet again. I might do that to BC but not to my dear wifey she’s suffered a lot over the years
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Experiment with 4 dogs who normally have firm stools and eat raw green tripe mixed with breeders pack dried food and occasional extras like blackpudding etc which does not make any difference to their stools.
The other day I suggested to my wife that she mix up some Bisto Gravy Granules to make their meal more interesting. The dogs loved it. Later on there was a general queue at the back door waiting to go outside, which did not concern us much but they did look troubled and rather panicky come to think of it.
Well the following morning our back yard looked like a bomb site with all of the dogs crapping all over the place and when I went out to pick it up, there were no firm stools to be found anywhere just foul smelling slop plastered everywhere.
Now this could be a coincidence. It could also have been mass hysteria among the canine breed. But it could also be Bisto Gravy Granules that upset their tummy’s.
Now the day after they were all on Bisto Free food and not a single sloppy squitter amongst them Bless them.
So looks like the 3 jars of Bisto GG are for the bin unless someone would like me to send them?
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Sory to hear of the dogs' problems .
I'm still puzzled by the fact that there's nothing in bisto that isn't in plenty of other foods. Why does putting exactly the same chemicals in a jar marked bisto make it into a laxative?
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B.C. I have absolutely no idea, but know that something in it is causing this problem.
Since we stopped using it Jude’s IBS problem has not recurred. Could be a coincidence but seems a little odd that when the dogs ate the stuff it went right through them, whereas they don’t have problems normally. Of course it could be a virus or bacteria that infected all of the dogs and this was just a coincidence. But then we are left with our friends advice to avoid Bisto Gravy Granules at all cost and she has severe Irritable Bowel Syndrome and has learned the hard way what parts of her diet causes her to have problems.
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A reader sent a note asking for a recipe for making good gravy. Here is how we do it nowadays and IBS free houshold now too.
Use Bovril or oxo for flavouring and some meet juices. Add olive oil to the meat juices and put two heaped tablespoons of flour for two people, making thick smooth gravy. Add salt and pepper, (rosmary or any other herb that you find palatable to give it an edge) Fry the flower and herbs in the olive oil and meat juices, usually do this in the roasting tin. Add around half a glass of wine (sometimes) as each gravy we make nowadays brings on a whole different experience to our meals.
Gradually add the water from the boiled cabbage, sprouts, broccoli, beans, curly kale or any other veg you are cooking stirring continuously until you reach the desired consistency, allow to boil for a few minutes.
Jude no longer has IBS :) Black salt adds a nice flavour also.
You may want to do a search on the NS site and please add your thoughts to the thread. I will add this recipe.
Not sure what the ingredient in Bisto is that causes the problem. We did have a curry sauce from Farm Foods Supermarket chain the caused a flare up once and some of the ingredients were the same as in Bisto. It may therefore be a combination of several ingredients acting together.
Soya Sauce in excess causes minor flare ups of IBS, so moderation is the order of the day from now on.
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Jude no longer has IBS since we abandoned Bisto Gravy Granules. 22/4/2008 -29/1/2009
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Glad to hear it, but I still don't understand how exactly the same materials don't have an effect when they are not in a jar marked bisto.
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AKF.
According to your posts, all of your 'cures' seem to have nearly 100% success. That is miraculous.
Do you have any statistics of failures / double blind testing? Without that, you are expecting too much for us to take all / any of your reports seriously.
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Be fair, nobody reports failure as diligently as thet do success.
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But, if you wanted to convince people, it would sound much better to say "75% of subjects showed an improvement" rather than "It works."
(That is if you are trying to be treated as a Scientist, rather than an advertiser).
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We found another product, a fish shop curry sauce from Farmfoods that triggered her IBS. Fried tomatoes also.
Product: Mayflour Chines Style Medium Curry Sauce, Dry Mix.
Ingredients from curry sauce:
Wheat Flour, vegetable oil, curry powder, salt, sugar, tomatoe puree, flavour enhancer E621, Spices.
Alergen Information: Contains Wheat Gluten.
Got a fealling it may be when certain products are combined?
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Have you tried patch tests with isolated and combined substances. You may see a pattern emerge.