Naked Science Forum

General Science => General Science => Topic started by: DoctorBeaver on 16/06/2007 08:29:31

Title: Can lightning occur without thunder?
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 16/06/2007 08:29:31
During the storm here yesterday I noticed a lot of lightening that wasn't accompanied by thunder. How does that happen?
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 16/06/2007 08:31:12
The thunder was too far away... perhaps had moved past you or was not close enough to you (as in the heart of the storm.)
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 16/06/2007 08:36:17
The storm was very local
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 16/06/2007 08:50:59
 WOW... That is odd then.. I wonder can there be claps of thunder too high to hear maybe higher cloud cover????or can clouds and conditions be so dense they muffle sound...you can stop me any time just pulling stuff out of my pocket.. I haven't a clue! LOL
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 16/06/2007 08:53:44
I'm not sure I want to know what's in your pocket  [:-X]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 16/06/2007 08:56:17
 You might like what I have in my pocket! LOL, But you wouldn't believe it!!
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 16/06/2007 08:59:57
Beech bark?  [::)]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 16/06/2007 09:06:01
 Well...Not exactly....LOL [;D]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 16/06/2007 09:07:50
 [:(]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 16/06/2007 09:11:20
Stop frowning it is much better then beech bark!! [;D]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 16/06/2007 09:26:28
Curried beech bark?  [:o]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: kdlynn on 16/06/2007 09:32:37
do i know what it is, karen?
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 16/06/2007 10:10:26
Curried beech bark... hummmm your getting closer! It is definitely spicey! LOL

Nope you don't know what it is Kadie! LOL!

BTW I just had on Wednesday, I think.. My very fist Indian food. They opened a resturant here locally well 14 miles away and it was wonderful.... OH my gosh it was very good and I loved Papadum...it was good..I had a pretty simple chicken curry with tomatoes onions crushed cashews,,,,yummmmy!
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 16/06/2007 10:23:12
Peshwari chicken?
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 16/06/2007 10:56:53
I brought the menu home it just says chicken curry!

I want to try Tandoori chicken  oooooh looks good!
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 16/06/2007 10:58:52
Peshwari chicken?

Whats in that dish besides spicy goodness and chicken?
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: dentstudent on 18/06/2007 08:43:20
The Tandoori is the oven in which the food is cooked. Hang on......

[diagram=251_0]

and looks a bit like this (in cross-section).

The meat is marinated in spices mixed with joghurt, then cooked on skewers in the oven.

Truly scrumptious!
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 18/06/2007 10:07:46
Sounds delishious
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: dentstudent on 18/06/2007 10:11:31
You have to try Keema naan - naan bread with a lamb stuffing.

What is this curried beech bark thing that's going on? It came up in another thread too!
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 18/06/2007 10:26:50
So about that thunder...LOL Does anyone know why it was not audible . Was it actually there and perhaps we just missed it? Is there such a thing as silent thunder? Here is what I found, which leads me to believe the real storm was further away from where you were! you just couldn't hear it as it was too far away! Here is what I found:

http://library.thinkquest.org/C003603/english/severestorms/thunder.shtml



"Lightning slices through air, heating it to about 60,000ºF (five times hotter than the sun’s surface!). The heated air quickly expands in an outward explosion, but then contracts as it cools. The rapid back and forth movement of air particles as it expands and contracts produces sound waves that we know as thunder.

Thunder and lightning always occur at the same time, but light travels faster than sound so we see lightning before hearing thunder. Every five seconds between the two phenomena is roughly equivalent to a mile. Thus, counting the seconds between a lightning bolt and a thunderclap, one can calculate the distance to the storm."



So the lightning comes first Doc... I see It produces a sound wave that explodes outward and that back and forth action causes the th=under which could plausibly be silent if it was sent out to far away for you too hear the sound of the thunder! Am I understanding that right.. so what determines the distance and does the thunder take place at the point of the furthest point away that the sound had traveled??
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 18/06/2007 10:27:44
You have to try Keema naan - naan bread with a lamb stuffing.

What is this curried beech bark thing that's going on? It came up in another thread too!

HEE HEE HEE.. LOL Which thread I must read it?? LOL
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 18/06/2007 10:32:27
You have to try Keema naan - naan bread with a lamb stuffing.

What is this curried beech bark thing that's going on? It came up in another thread too!


I am going to try all sorts of things from now on.. I will put it on my list! Let me see if it is on the menu, its on the menu for $1.99 they call it "Keema nan
nan" stuffed with minced lamb and aromatic spices.
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: dentstudent on 18/06/2007 10:38:49
That's the baby!

It's great to try new foods...good for you!


From the good Doctor, obviously......
Beech bark vindaloo:-

Get a good handful of beech bark
Nip down to the local takeaway & get a chicken vindaloo
Remove the chicken
Add the beech bark
Serve & enjoy!  [:D]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 18/06/2007 10:43:35
LOL...I think I best not say it in here as to what he meant... Do you know what I mean???may I message you, without saying it in here?? LOl

By the way THanks..LOL I missed that comment in the other thread! LOL
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 18/06/2007 10:47:28
That's the baby!

It's great to try new foods...good for you!


From the good Doctor, obviously......
Beech bark vindaloo:-

Get a good handful of beech bark
Nip down to the local takeaway & get a chicken vindaloo
Remove the chicken
Add the beech bark
Serve & enjoy!  [:D]

OH you do not know me well, LOL I love good food and love to try new things especially food. There are a few I won't touch.. but many I will!
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: dentstudent on 18/06/2007 10:49:51
But to return to the thread topic!

I don't think that it is possible to have lightning without thunder - the sudden expansion of the super-heated air resulting from the lightning will always make a noise. You can't even touch an electric fence (not that you'd want to) without a "zap". You can get lightning within a cloud (Intracloud lightning), and so doesn't "hit" the earth. If this occurs in a local storm, but at altitude, it may be that a combination of distance, local winds etc, might dissipate the noise so that you don' hear it. I normally give up counting after about 25 - 30 seconds, because the thunder is often really weak. This is only 4 -5 miles distant, and storm clouds can easily attain these sorts of altitudes.....
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 18/06/2007 10:52:12
Curried beech bark?  [:o]

Why Doc,.. shame on you I missed the above post! LOL See denty's Post!

I kinda wondered if it could be muffled by that kind of thing, but it was only a guess see the posts I wrote well above at start!
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: dentstudent on 18/06/2007 10:52:20
OH you do not know me well, LOL I love good food and love to try new things especially food. There are a few I won't touch.. but many I will!

Ah, clearly not - I might now be a Sr. Member, but still a "Newbie" in knowledge of people's pursuits!

Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: dentstudent on 18/06/2007 10:55:19
I kinda wondered if it could be muffled by that kind of thing, but it was only a guess see the posts I wrote well above at start!

Sorry Karen -  I wasn't trying to steal your thunder!  [:D]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 18/06/2007 10:58:48
LOL you did not steel my THUNDER>> LOL cause I had no Idea if that was even possible until you said that! ..LOL Don't appologise I find it funny that I was even close LOL! Did you get what doc meant?
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: dentstudent on 18/06/2007 11:06:01
Did you get what doc meant?

About thunder or curry (although some might say that the two are linked!)
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 18/06/2007 11:17:59
I think they may be linked if you know what I mean! LOL
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 18/06/2007 13:59:01
What is this curried beech bark thing that's going on? It came up in another thread too!

It's my favourite dish!  [:)]

Considering what you do for a living, you may not approve of my being an arbivore.
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: dentstudent on 18/06/2007 14:23:09
arbivore  [:D]

I have a keen desire to use wood in as many ways as possible! The worst thing we could do in the face of making them a sustainable resource would be to leave the forests alone! But this is another complex arguement......

And if I can combine eating with forestry, then I'm all for it!
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 18/06/2007 14:24:30
LOL LOL!
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 18/06/2007 16:08:51
I kinda wondered if it could be muffled by that kind of thing, but it was only a guess see the posts I wrote well above at start!

Sorry Karen -  I wasn't trying to steal your thunder!  [:D]

If Karen went on a diet, would she be lightening herself?  [:D]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 18/06/2007 16:09:51
arbivore  [:D]

I have a keen desire to use wood in as many ways as possible!

 [:0]
Don't say that to Lo or Carolyn!
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 18/06/2007 21:32:12
I kinda wondered if it could be muffled by that kind of thing, but it was only a guess see the posts I wrote well above at start!

Sorry Karen -  I wasn't trying to steal your thunder!  [:D]

If Karen went on a diet, would she be lightening herself?  [:D]

LOL..perhaps a bit of lightening would help right about now!

Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 18/06/2007 21:33:36
arbivore  [:D]

I have a keen desire to use wood in as many ways as possible!

 [:0]
Don't say that to Lo or Carolyn!

LOL LOL..
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Carolyn on 19/06/2007 02:33:52
arbivore  [:D]

I have a keen desire to use wood in as many ways as possible!

 [:0]
Don't say that to Lo or Carolyn!

I cannot believe you said that!!! [:(!]  I know you're just trying to get me riled up and misbehaving but I'm not falling for it!  Besides....you're the one who has the w.....oh...nevermind. [;)]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 19/06/2007 22:08:36
Gawd, she saw it  [:-X]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Carolyn on 19/06/2007 22:56:24
Gawd, she saw it  [:-X]

Yes she did!  Lucky for you I have a sense of humor! [;D] [;)]

I suppose I should be grateful...at least here you can't change my post.  [;)]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 19/06/2007 23:14:44
Gawd, she saw it  [:-X]

Yes she did!  Lucky for you I have a sense of humor! [;D] [;)]

I suppose I should be grateful...at least here you can't change my post.  [;)]

As if I would  [:I]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Carolyn on 20/06/2007 02:39:17
No, of course you woodn't [;)]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 20/06/2007 06:53:53
No, of course you woodn't [;)]

OAK-kay, are you inFIRing something? In my o-PINE-ion you're harBOUGHring a grudge BEECH-cause you TWIGged that I'd I TwEAKed 1 of your posts. Now, don't BE A BABy!  [;D]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Carolyn on 20/06/2007 12:56:21
I WOOD never harBOUGHr a grudge against you Doc! [;D] [:X] [;)]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 20/06/2007 13:00:26
I can't find my chopped Harley Davidson. Have you seen MA HOG ANYone?
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: dentstudent on 20/06/2007 13:17:23
subLIME to the ridOAKuLARCH! BARKing mad, it SAP's my WILLow tO LIVE - let's LEAVE it there!
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 20/06/2007 13:57:50
I was trying to make friends. I want to be POPLAR.

I did a weewee in a tin & ended up with a CANOPY!  [:D]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: paul.fr on 20/06/2007 14:22:16
i suppose you all think this is a TREEmendous jOAK, posts such as this PLUM new depths. I suspect this STEMS from the good Doc.
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: dentstudent on 20/06/2007 14:35:17
thats PLANE but BrEECHES no rules. it AL DERpends on where you STAND - let's not STOOP to COPSE and robbers - i enjoy this TIMBER of thROWAN words into the RING.
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: paul.fr on 20/06/2007 14:40:45
It does attract a lot of DEAD WOOD, and the people posting here are obviously BARKing mad
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: dentstudent on 20/06/2007 14:46:25
That was TRUNKated! We should all CHIP in, not NEEDLE each other - be MERI. STEMS from showing our nice PHOTOS. SYNTHESISE that!
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 20/06/2007 14:47:31
i suppose you all think this is a TREEmendous jOAK, posts such as this PLUM new depths. I suspect this STEMS from the good Doc.

How can YEW think such a thing!  [:0]

Anyway, if you look back through this thread I think you'll find it was Carolyn who started it  [:P]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: dentstudent on 20/06/2007 14:49:27
It does TAX US unduly!
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 20/06/2007 14:51:07
ALDER posts in this thread are very silly.
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: paul.fr on 20/06/2007 14:51:32
That was TRUNKated! We should all CHIP in, not NEEDLE each other - be MERI. STEMS from showing our nice PHOTOS. SYNTHESISE that!

My apologies, not much sleep and feeling BUSHed. Cut myself SHAVING this morning, but i still look CUTe(ICLE). Sorry if that sounds VEIN.
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: paul.fr on 20/06/2007 14:56:24
How can YEW think such a thing!  [:0]

Anyway, if you look back through this thread I think you'll find it was Carolyn who started it  [:P]

Sorry Doc, you have me WEEPING now.
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: dentstudent on 20/06/2007 15:00:01
i BOUGH my CROWN to your eyes on STALKS.
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 20/06/2007 15:01:02
How can YEW think such a thing!  [:0]

Anyway, if you look back through this thread I think you'll find it was Carolyn who started it  [:P]

Sorry Doc, you have me WEEPING now.

WILLOW I get an apology?
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 25/06/2007 13:06:44
Not ACORNing to The STALKer Girl who is  weeping away like a WILLOW for the LONESOME PINE...whom's branches hold her HEARTWOOD IN their Nimble leaves!
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Carolyn on 26/06/2007 01:16:37
i suppose you all think this is a TREEmendous jOAK, posts such as this PLUM new depths. I suspect this STEMS from the good Doc.

How can YEW think such a thing!  [:0]

Anyway, if you look back through this thread I think you'll find it was Carolyn who started it  [:P]

Oh FIR crying out loud!  It was yew that started it, my ELDER friend! [;D]
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: lyner on 27/06/2007 10:40:46
Quote
so what determines the distance and does the thunder take place at the point of the furthest point away that the sound had traveled??
Karen - the thunder is just a sound that is produced by the lightning and you hear it later; you could just as easily ask, does the music happen  where the instrument produces it or in the ears of the listener.
The loudness of the thunder (i.e. where the listener is) depends upon how far away you are from the source but, also, on the terrain  and the wind direction (there was a previous post about the way sound carries in a wind). Another huge factor is the level of background noise in the vicinity of the listener.
Counting the seconds between flash and bang (3 seconds per km, approx) will tell you how far away the storm is. Lightning can be seen from vast distances, sometimes, when it is reflected by high clouds - especially at night, away from street lights.
When you see any phenomenon that you can't understand (just like when the car starts to go 'funny') it is a good idea to record all the circumstances; it helps a lot when an explanation is required from an 'expert'. I find great difficulty in identifying wild birds from the book, when I get home, if I don't write down some details at the time.
Age and the brain, perhaps.
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 27/06/2007 10:50:53
Thanks I know about counting and all that, but was confused about the other..as I always thout the thunder then the lightening, but I must have it backwards! Eh?
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 27/06/2007 10:53:56
I always thought that the lighting would strike you count and estimate by counting how many miles away from you the eye or heart of the storm was,, say it was 12, then that would mean there were twelve miles between the lighting strike and the heart of the storm! So that is not correct?
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: dentstudent on 27/06/2007 12:13:48
I always thought that the lighting would strike you count and estimate by counting how many miles away from you the eye or heart of the storm was,, say it was 12, then that would mean there were twelve miles between the lighting strike and the heart of the storm! So that is not correct?

Yes, this is mostly right Karen, apart from the timing. So when you see the lightning, start counting. It takes about 5 seconds for sound to travel 1 mile, so for your 12 seconds, that would be 12/5 miles or 2.4 miles to where the lightning bolt was. If you were only able to count 1 second, then the lightning was 1/5 of a mile away, or about 350 yards.

I can sometimes see the lightning from storms in the Alps. As sophiecentaur says, this would be reflected within the high clouds. There is no thunder because the storms are about 100 miles away.
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: lyner on 27/06/2007 17:55:15
What's that, Dentstudent? "350 yards and 2.4 miles" from Germany?

In Europe we use SI units and it is our bounden duty to educate the USA into the same!

One day we will have decimal time, too.

BTW, I wish someone wood preservers from all these puns.
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: paul.fr on 27/06/2007 18:09:04

BTW, I wish someone wood preservers from all these puns.

we will gloss over your last comment.
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: dentstudent on 27/06/2007 18:17:16
What's that, Dentstudent? "350 yards and 2.4 miles" from Germany?

In Europe we use SI units and it is our bounden duty to educate the USA into the same!

One day we will have decimal time, too.

BTW, I wish someone wood preservers from all these puns.

Yes, I know. i just thought it might help with the explanation first!

I'm off for a 250g steak! Hmmn, now THAT doesn't sound right!
Title: Lightening without thunder
Post by: Karen W. on 27/06/2007 19:10:05
Thanks Stuart and everyone..