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What is Science and What is Materialism in Science and Elsewhere ? Hi, dear folks :Since the majority of scientists and many other people , do confuse science with materialism ,
Materialism, I think, presumes everything that exists is observable
Beautifully put AndroidNeox!Now ain't that a thing.From your description one could say that Science is a tool we use to test Materialism or, more forcefully (fancifully?), that Science is out to disprove 'Materialism'. Indeed, I would expect that, should something not subject to causality ever be discovered, the discovery will be made by Science.An interesting and reasonable way of looking at the question. The answer would then be that "Materialism" in Science is the concept under test.
Materialism, I think, presumes everything that exists is observable and the events are controlled by absolute physical laws, which requires causality. Science also depends upon the presumption of causality. Science and Materialism are mutually-consistent, but definitely not the same thing.
Quote Materialism, I think, presumes everything that exists is observableWhich cuts out dark matter and dark energy. These are however scientific concepts, therefore science is not inherently materialistic.Science is the business of observe, hypothesis, test. Nothing more nor less. There is no room for -isms or any other form of prejudice in scientific endeavour.
...if Materialism cannot explain consciousness, then Materialism is false.
1) The problem of life
2) The problem of design
3) The problem of thought
4) The problem of morality
Quote...if Materialism cannot explain consciousness, then Materialism is false.Or consciousness is false.Quote1) The problem of lifeMaterialism can handle that.Quote2) The problem of designAnd that.Quote3) The problem of thoughtAnd that.Quote4) The problem of moralityAnd it can handle that too, provided that it allows for the possibility of consciousness existing despite appearing to be an impossibility. The only real problem is consciousness if it is a real phenomenon.
Human consciousness is not false , is not an illusion we take for real, otherwise all our knowledge , including the scientific one , including that regarding evolution itself ...are just illusions ...simply because there can be no knowledge in the broader sense , no science ...without human consciousness .
No, you did ,obviously , not read my own comments on the subject .
This is surprising and inconsistent ,coming from you, Cooper : disappointingly suprisingly paradoxically enough :
Materialism can , obviously , not account for such processes as such , regarding their natures at least , regarding what they might be , such as life , feelings , emotions, memory , human love , consciousness in general, human reason, human conscience , human ethics ....to mention just that :
How can they all rise from any information system for that matter , as you put it , or from their alleged exclusively biological physical material ultimate core = just from physics and chemistry then ?
How can any information or data system for that matter , to borrow your own words on the subject , account for such processes ?
And it all 'comes down " or rather goes up haha to the key issues of human consciousness and human reason without which there would be no science even , no knowledge in general ,no science , no knowledge regarding evolution itself :
How can human consciousness or intellect as a means to make any sense of reality rise from the evolved complexity of the human physical brain , the latter as just a tool to "create or construct a mental image " of reality via our senses = how can the human consciousness and human intellect for that matter be the products of the so-called blind and purposeless random accidental evolution then ?
= how can we then not question the very validity and truth of our own knowledge in general as a result ? = question our scientific knowledge in general , including the validity and truth of our own scientific knowledge regarding evolution istelf as a result then ? if human consciousness and intellect are the products of that so-called random blind accidental purposeless ...evolution = a paradox that makes no sense whatsoever .[/b]
Consciousness, human reason, feelings , emotions, memory ,the nature of life as a whole...... cannot be accounted for by that reductionist false materialist conception of nature = cannot be accounted for neither via physics and chemistry , nor via those magical materialist computational emergence tricks performances ...don't you think ?
How can any information system account for human consciousness and human reason intellect then ? to mention just those , if reality is exclusively material , as materialism wanna make people believe reality is ... [/b]
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 25/10/2013 20:56:23Human consciousness is not false , is not an illusion we take for real, otherwise all our knowledge , including the scientific one , including that regarding evolution itself ...are just illusions ...simply because there can be no knowledge in the broader sense , no science ...without human consciousness .That's just an assertion based on your belief that consciousness exists, but the sentences you produce which claim it is a real phenomenon have been crafted by an information system that should not be able to judge the case, unless it has something extra going on it which takes it to some level beyond Turing complete.
QuoteNo, you did ,obviously , not read my own comments on the subject .It's highly likely I haven't read all your comments on the subject, but I did give you an appropriate response to that one and I don't know what you think is wrong with it.
QuoteThis is surprising and inconsistent ,coming from you, Cooper : disappointingly suprisingly paradoxically enough :Where is it inconsistent?
QuoteMaterialism can , obviously , not account for such processes as such , regarding their natures at least , regarding what they might be , such as life , feelings , emotions, memory , human love , consciousness in general, human reason, human conscience , human ethics ....to mention just that :There's no point in repeating that assertion everywhere. It's wrong. The parts of it relating to consciousness are correct, but the rest are wrong.
QuoteHow can they all rise from any information system for that matter , as you put it , or from their alleged exclusively biological physical material ultimate core = just from physics and chemistry then ?The parts relating to consciousness maybe can't. If they can though, they'll depend on something that goes beyond our current scientific knowledge, because a computer that is merely Turing complete is incapable of doing consciousness. It can reason though, and it can also compute morality if it starts with the assumption that suffering is real and needs to be managed.
QuoteHow can any information or data system for that matter , to borrow your own words on the subject , account for such processes ?Which ones? If you lump them all together you make it harder to answer. How can a calculator do mathematics? It does it by applying rules. How will an AGI system do reasoning? It will do it by applying rules. How will an AGI system do consciousness? It won't - not unless we find a new level of processing which is beyond the capability of our current computers.
QuoteAnd it all 'comes down " or rather goes up haha to the key issues of human consciousness and human reason without which there would be no science even , no knowledge in general ,no science , no knowledge regarding evolution itself :Half right, half wrong. Same mistake repeated every time. Human reason is not a mystery. Building models which represent the outer world in the form of data is not a mystery. Manipulating that data in order to make intelligent conclusions about things by generating new data from older data is not a mystery - it's just complex and it takes a long time to design and build the software to do the job. We are getting close to seeing it all work - we're just not quite there yet
QuoteHow can human consciousness or intellect as a means to make any sense of reality rise from the evolved complexity of the human physical brain , the latter as just a tool to "create or construct a mental image " of reality via our senses = how can the human consciousness and human intellect for that matter be the products of the so-called blind and purposeless random accidental evolution then ?Stop mixing up the two things. Intellect is completely different from consciousness. Evolution is blind in the sense that there is no designer thinking about and selecting the path it takes, but what works best by chance is selected for by survival of the fittest and becomes more common, outcompeting the inverior versions that came before it. The process of evolution works and is now used in designing many things in industry. Change the model slightly in random ways, test it in a simulator, abandon the versions that work less well, keep working with the ones that work better.
Quote = how can we then not question the very validity and truth of our own knowledge in general as a result ? = question our scientific knowledge in general , including the validity and truth of our own scientific knowledge regarding evolution istelf as a result then ? if human consciousness and intellect are the products of that so-called random blind accidental purposeless ...evolution = a paradox that makes no sense whatsoever .[/b]There's no paradox there. Intelligence has evolved and reached the stage where we have one species here with a universal problem-solving machine in its head which can question anything. We also have all the steps between that and the simplest thinking organisms which can do very little, though there are a few interesting surprises needing to be studied in more detail, such as how a single-celled amoeba can build itself a house, though it does contain a DNA computer
QuoteConsciousness, human reason, feelings , emotions, memory ,the nature of life as a whole...... cannot be accounted for by that reductionist false materialist conception of nature = cannot be accounted for neither via physics and chemistry , nor via those magical materialist computational emergence tricks performances ...don't you think ? Repeating it endlessly will not make it all true. Emergence certainly isn't an answer to the consciousness problem though
QuoteHow can any information system account for human consciousness and human reason intellect then ? to mention just those , if reality is exclusively material , as materialism wanna make people believe reality is ... [/b]It can't account for the first of those, yet (and maybe it never will because it looks like an impossible problem to solve), but there is no problem with human reason/intellect, just as there is no problem with machines doing maths. You can (or at least used to be able to get) puzzle books called "Logic Problems" where you would have to work out something from a list of pieces of information which don't directly provide you with the answer. You work out the answer by applying reason to rule out possibilities, putting crosses and ticks into a grid until the whole thing is resolved. The process is entirely mechanical and a machine could handle this task with ease, just so long as it can handle the linguistics and semantics - that's been the hard part of the process that's been holding back artificial intelligence for about seventy years, just handling the tangled way that words and meanings hang together with enormous scope for ambiguities to lead to errors in the calculations. We are about to relegate that problem to history though, because machines which can handle these all of these problems are just around the corner. What you should do is get hold of a logic problem of that kind and have a go at solving it, and then work out how you solved it and what rules you applied to do so. It's more difficult than rocket science to program a machine to do this, but it's far from being impossible.
Quote from: alancalverd on 25/10/2013 16:19:49Quote Materialism, I think, presumes everything that exists is observableWhich cuts out dark matter and dark energy. These are however scientific concepts, therefore science is not inherently materialistic.Science is the business of observe, hypothesis, test. Nothing more nor less. There is no room for -isms or any other form of prejudice in scientific endeavour.This in no way cuts out dark matter or dark energy. Materialism presumes the observations that lead us to speculate on the existence and nature of them are entirely due to physical processes
Come on , Cooper : do not be silly : this is absurd : You know very well , as much as i do that consciousness does exit , as you and i do : you cannot just try to avoid the hard problem of consciousness , by denying its undeniable and obvious existence , or by resorting to that "materialist promissory messianism " , in the sense that you will be able some day to explain consciousness via just physics and chemistry = cannot be done ,obviously .Consciousness that's a non-physical and non-biological process , that's 1 of the reasons why neither materialism nor science can account for such non-material processes such as consciousness, obviously .
You assumed that materialism has already solved the issue of the nature of life , the nature of human cognition ....as the guy who wrote that above mentioned article stated : i commented on the latter by saying why i did not agree with that guy's assumptions .
You're inconsistent in the way or in the sense that you said that the issues of the nature and function of the human intellect were solved by materialism, while you ,repeatedly , expressed your legetimate and true rejection of all those materialist magical "emergence " tricks ,regarding the nature and origin of consciousness = you should , logically , also reject that materialist magical "computational " trick ,regarding the nature and function of human intellect , if you wanna remain consistent with yourself at least= living organisms are no machines .
Human reason or intellect that tries to apprehend or "capture " reality ,beyond its external survival appearances , beyond the survival necessity = that human intellect in that sense that cannot be a result of any computer-like , machine -like computation , despite the fact that there are indeed primitive forms of intellect in all species for that matter, as a means to just survival ,as a means to "read " and act upon the external appearances of the environment or reality .
...What you still do not wanna see or realise is that neither the physical empirical science ,nor materialism can account for such processes such as consciousness, human reason, pain , feelings emotions ....just via physics and chemistry .
Living organisms are , once again, no machine -like , computer -like entities .Human reason, for example , goes way beyond the external appearances of reality : can any computer for that matter do just that , or reason its way to just that , by trying to reason its way all the way to the hidden mysteries of reality ...beyond reality's external appearances ...
Human reason is way much more than just mechanical calculations , mechanical reasoning ...human reason tries to decipher the hidden mysteries of nature , beyond its external appearances ....
Human reason, the nature of life , the nature of emotions feelings ....cannot be accounted for just via physics and chemistry : how can't you see just that .
Quote...Human reason is not a mystery. Building models which represent the outer world in the form of data is not a mystery. Manipulating that data in order to make intelligent conclusions about things by generating new data from older data is not a mystery - it's just complex and it takes a long time to design and build the software to do the job. We are getting close to seeing it all work - we're just not quite there yet.Human reason is obviously much more than just that , come on, it reflects on itself , on reality , is creative , plastic , flexible , imaginative ....= a machine cannot do all that .
...Human reason is not a mystery. Building models which represent the outer world in the form of data is not a mystery. Manipulating that data in order to make intelligent conclusions about things by generating new data from older data is not a mystery - it's just complex and it takes a long time to design and build the software to do the job. We are getting close to seeing it all work - we're just not quite there yet
Human reason is a conscious process mainly also , come on .
I see consciousness or the soul or Mind with a big T , as a process containing reason , emotions ,feelings , intuition ...the mind with a small t is just a part of the bigger human Mind with a big T .
Human reason is a conscious process mainly , not a mechanical one ,dude .
All i am saying : even science cannot be without consciousness and intellect ,so, if human consciousness and intellect were the products of that 'blind " random accidental purposeless ...evolution ,human consciousness and intellect as just pragmatic survival strategies then , then, it's pretty logical to question the very validity and truth of all our knowledge , including the scientific one , including that relating to evolution itself , all our knowledge that gets achieved via our consciousness intellect ...through science ............
DNA 's role and function are way too exaggerated : DNA is not in charge of everything , DNA just "codes " the making of proteins ....
Human reason and consciousness cannot be the products of the exclusively biological physical material Darwinian evolution : can't you see just that ? = they cannot be just a matter of physics and chemistry, life in general neither .
My friend , that machine analogy regarding human reason and life in general is false , i said why earlier : and human reason is not just a matter of what you were saying : human reason is even able to question itself , its logic , its reasoning and beyond .
Try to read Nagel's book ,regarding the impossibility that human reason can be accounted for ,just via physics and chemistry ,or just via mechanistic materialist computational bullshit : that's why materialists just resort to that false and outdated machine-like , computer -like computation analogy , regarding human reason .
Humans are the only species that possess reason : reason is mostly what differentiates or distinguishes us from other species,come on .
I apologize if this has been brought up already and I've missed it, but what would happen if someday we were able to detect and describe the function of something like, say, ghosts? Ghosts are normally considered immaterial and supernatural, but if we could demonstrate their existence and even gain an understanding of the processes that make them tick, would that then fit them under the umbrella of materialism? Or would they still be outside of it? Does anything detectable and provable fit into materialism?
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 26/10/2013 18:15:05Come on , Cooper : do not be silly : this is absurd : You know very well , as much as i do that consciousness does exit , as you and i do : you cannot just try to avoid the hard problem of consciousness , by denying its undeniable and obvious existence , or by resorting to that "materialist promissory messianism " , in the sense that you will be able some day to explain consciousness via just physics and chemistry = cannot be done ,obviously .Consciousness that's a non-physical and non-biological process , that's 1 of the reasons why neither materialism nor science can account for such non-material processes such as consciousness, obviously .It would be wrong not to consider the possibility that there is no such thing as consciousness. Don't close your mind to it.QuoteYou assumed that materialism has already solved the issue of the nature of life , the nature of human cognition ....as the guy who wrote that above mentioned article stated : i commented on the latter by saying why i did not agree with that guy's assumptions .How far back to I have to go to find that bit? Not that it matters though, because I don't merely assume that materialism has solved the issue of the nature of life (which is just complex chemistry) and the nature of human cognition (which can be done by machines). There is no problem left there in need of discussion.QuoteYou're inconsistent in the way or in the sense that you said that the issues of the nature and function of the human intellect were solved by materialism, while you ,repeatedly , expressed your legetimate and true rejection of all those materialist magical "emergence " tricks ,regarding the nature and origin of consciousness = you should , logically , also reject that materialist magical "computational " trick ,regarding the nature and function of human intellect , if you wanna remain consistent with yourself at least= living organisms are no machines .You are imagining inconsistency where there isn't any. Intellect can be accounted for in full. Consciousness can't (yet).QuoteHuman reason or intellect that tries to apprehend or "capture " reality ,beyond its external survival appearances , beyond the survival necessity = that human intellect in that sense that cannot be a result of any computer-like , machine -like computation , despite the fact that there are indeed primitive forms of intellect in all species for that matter, as a means to just survival ,as a means to "read " and act upon the external appearances of the environment or reality .A calculator is a machine that has already surpassed human intellect in a small area of intelligence. AGI systems will surpass human intellect in all other areas soon. This is completely different from consciousness which remains a problem to be resolved.Quote...What you still do not wanna see or realise is that neither the physical empirical science ,nor materialism can account for such processes such as consciousness, human reason, pain , feelings emotions ....just via physics and chemistry .Take the bit about human reason out of that and I won't disagree with the rest, but human reason is something an ordinary computer can do (given the right software).QuoteLiving organisms are , once again, no machine -like , computer -like entities .Human reason, for example , goes way beyond the external appearances of reality : can any computer for that matter do just that , or reason its way to just that , by trying to reason its way all the way to the hidden mysteries of reality ...beyond reality's external appearances ...Yes. On paper I can see how it will do it, but we'll have to wait for the completion of the build of the actual AGI system which will implement it all before we can see it in action.QuoteHuman reason is way much more than just mechanical calculations , mechanical reasoning ...human reason tries to decipher the hidden mysteries of nature , beyond its external appearances ....There is absolutely no barrier to a machine doing the same thing.QuoteHuman reason, the nature of life , the nature of emotions feelings ....cannot be accounted for just via physics and chemistry : how can't you see just that .Because I can see how machines will do the whole task. I'm not going to tell you that something can't be done when I can see that it can.QuoteQuote...Human reason is not a mystery. Building models which represent the outer world in the form of data is not a mystery. Manipulating that data in order to make intelligent conclusions about things by generating new data from older data is not a mystery - it's just complex and it takes a long time to design and build the software to do the job. We are getting close to seeing it all work - we're just not quite there yet.Human reason is obviously much more than just that , come on, it reflects on itself , on reality , is creative , plastic , flexible , imaginative ....= a machine cannot do all that .A machine can do all that.QuoteHuman reason is a conscious process mainly also , come on .Consciousness has no essential role in it.QuoteI see consciousness or the soul or Mind with a big T , as a process containing reason , emotions ,feelings , intuition ...the mind with a small t is just a part of the bigger human Mind with a big T .Once you've had a few conversations with a non-conscious AGI system which can out-think you in every way, you'll change your mind (though not literally, of course).QuoteHuman reason is a conscious process mainly , not a mechanical one ,dude .Human reason is a process which can be matched by a mechanical system with no consciousness involved.QuoteAll i am saying : even science cannot be without consciousness and intellect ,so, if human consciousness and intellect were the products of that 'blind " random accidental purposeless ...evolution ,human consciousness and intellect as just pragmatic survival strategies then , then, it's pretty logical to question the very validity and truth of all our knowledge , including the scientific one , including that relating to evolution itself , all our knowledge that gets achieved via our consciousness intellect ...through science ............There is nothing to stop a machine doing science without consciousness being involved in the process.QuoteDNA 's role and function are way too exaggerated : DNA is not in charge of everything , DNA just "codes " the making of proteins ....In the case of an amoeba (single-celled creature) building its own house, there is something in the cell which serves as a machine with some computational capability. Whether it's a DNA computer or a protein computer, I cannot tell without seeing the entire mechanism laid out in detail, and even then it would likely be so complex that it will take an AGI system to understand it.QuoteHuman reason and consciousness cannot be the products of the exclusively biological physical material Darwinian evolution : can't you see just that ? = they cannot be just a matter of physics and chemistry, life in general neither .First remove the bit about reason from that. The rest isn't necessarily right either, because if consciousness is real, its integration into biological systems will have evolved.QuoteMy friend , that machine analogy regarding human reason and life in general is false , i said why earlier : and human reason is not just a matter of what you were saying : human reason is even able to question itself , its logic , its reasoning and beyond .It's only false when it's extended to try to cover consciousness, though even then that depends on machines being limited in the ways that conventional (and quantum) computers are limited - there may be other kinds of processing which could be done by machines which we have yet to think of designing.QuoteTry to read Nagel's book ,regarding the impossibility that human reason can be accounted for ,just via physics and chemistry ,or just via mechanistic materialist computational bullshit : that's why materialists just resort to that false and outdated machine-like , computer -like computation analogy , regarding human reason .I'm not going to waste time reading a book that is plain wrong. I've seen the way it can be done and Nagel hasn't - he/she is the one who will need to shift position on this.QuoteHumans are the only species that possess reason : reason is mostly what differentiates or distinguishes us from other species,come on .That's not true (there are animals that can design and make tools to solve problems - a process depending on reasoning abilities), though we certainly do reason better than any other species on this planet.