Naked Science Forum
Life Sciences => Plant Sciences, Zoology & Evolution => Topic started by: omid on 17/02/2010 21:45:13
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omid find out this from a very reliable source that from mobile signal bees forget the way to their house and thus are killed
how??????????????
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Why do you think the source is reliable?
If there were even the slightest real basis for this the phones would be banned- the pollination by bees is more important than the phones.
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Omid, that's a very interesting question, not only for bees :)
There are Swedish studies proving that cell phones do penetrate the blood barrier of the brain.
Swedish study 2008 (http://www.emfacts.com/weblog/?p=995) and you can also take a look at this Mobile phone radiation and health (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_radiation_and_health#Blood-brain_barrier_effects)
What conclusions one can draw from this research?
Use some common sense..
Well, don't wear the phone near the family jewels :)
Use a headset if you have one.
If you like me use a laptop with a 'G3 usb-stick' to connect to the Internet, use the 'extension cord' that comes with it to create a distance between the usb-stick (receiver) and yourself. This one I see as most important as you will be exposed for a long time if you, like me, are an avid fan of the Internet and therefore will be connected for a longer period :)
We are in fact experimenting with ourselves as we all over the globe use those kind of new clever communication gadgets.
As for what the long time effects will be I can't say, and neither can anyone else. When it comes to f.ex radioactive transmissions some studies have found that for people living under a constant exposure of radioactivity the human body seems to be more adaptive (resistant) than when being exposed to sudden 'peaks' of the same? Don't ask me how that would work, but it is a statistical fact according to some sources (Iran).
--Quote---
The background rate for radiation varies considerably with location, being as low as 1.5 mSv/a (1.5 mSv per year) in some areas and over 100 mSv/a in others. People in some parts of Ramsar, a city in northern Iran, receive an annual absorbed dose from background radiation that is up to 260 mSv/a. Despite having lived for many generations in these high background areas, inhabitants of Ramsar show no significant cytogenetic differences compared to people in normal background areas.[citation needed] This has led to the suggestion that high but steady levels of radiation are easier for humans to sustain than sudden radiation bursts.
---End of quote- Ionizing radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionizing_radiation#Human-made_radiation_sources)
We have recently used depleted uranium in armaments (projectiles) in Iraq for the war having been fought there, and research done seems to indicate that there is a correlation between that kind of materials and radioactive sickness radioactive peaks (http://www.uraniumweaponsconference.de/speakers/khadum_du.pdf) and depleted uranium FAQ (http://www.bandepleteduranium.org/en/i/22.html)
And as with all statistics you really will need a lot of it to show one way or another. Our Northern countries are 'blessed' in that way as we early on started to organize studies over our inhabitants without people feeling that those infringed on their privacy. Some countries take those kind of studies as intrusions on their right of privacy, but considering all the new electronic devices we introduce I think they are needed. Then again, other Countries don't have the same sort of centralized working bureaucracies that we have.
One also have to remember that Sweden f.ex have been blessed with peace since its last campaign against Norway 1814. "By the Treaty of Kiel (January 1814) the King of Denmark-Norway had to cede Norway to the King of Sweden, due to the alliance of Denmark-Norway with France during the later phases of the Napoleonic Wars. This treaty was however not accepted by the Norwegians." But we let the Norwegians of the hook peacefully 1905 through a vote where Norway became independent. Not that we Swedes expected it but we at least honored the vote shown which talks in our favor :)
And therefore we've have had a chance for stability few other countries have had. When it comes to bees?
--Quote--
A beehive is a complex system (one mother; several fathers; behavior changes with age during a worker bee's lifetime). I helped with a bit of research beekeeping decades ago, before DNA mapping; breeding study had shown that disease resistance in honeybees is partly managed by behavior tightly programmed genetically.
(Bees from one inbred line cleaned only horizontal surfaces; bees from a different inbred line cleaned only vertical surfaces; each of those was vulnerable to disease organisms that built up on the uncleaned surfaces. They also had different circadian clocks (got up at different times of day. A normal hive with several fathers and good variety genetically would always have some worker bees cleaning every available surface.
It's easy to see that dieoffs would happen whenever some organism got the "key" to successfully invade or infect honeybees; their variability so far has helped assure natural selection will leave enough surviving queens and drones to repopulate. One way I think what's happening now is different: the avoidance of the hives by other honeybees and other insects; they don't immediately move in and rob out all the honey and stored pollen from a hive when a colony disappears.
Heretofore it's always been a truism in beekeeping that seeing a lot of bees around a hive going away burdened is a red flag --- that particular beehive probably is damaged or sick, and has gotten so weak it can't defend its stores, and is being robbed out. That's what's new here as near as I can tell, just reading the popular press --- other bees and other insects avoid the hives when the colony disappears.
They know something. Our problem is to learn what they recognize.
---End of quote--
There is a lively debate going on about it and in many ways it's similar to the one that once was about the effects of smoking. There is an incredible amount of profit involved in cellphones today. As a example a Swedish company went into one of the worst dictatorships known in Eastern Europe siphoning billions to an account owned, presumably, by a lady but more probably going directly down some other pockets just to get a foothold in the cellphone industry there. The most embarrassing thing about it is that the Swedish state was a major stock holder in the company and that we have very clear anti corruptions laws. When asked about it the company declared that as soon as they had checked up this female individual their collective conscience was clear, and what that person did with their money was no longer a concern of theirs :). And as it seems now, neither of our present choice of government.
So, knowing this it's a safe bet to say that there will be a lot of money siphoned into denying this phenomena if it now will be shown to be true. The real problem with it is that most of those bee deaths seems to be related to Northern America and India so far and not so much to Europe where we have a large concentration of cell phones per area?
Take a look here India 2009 (http://www.dailypioneer.com/203392) for recent examples. Now, there is new research linking the deaths in America to "cell damage in bees affected by colony collapse disorder (CCD), which suggests that a virus contributes to a condition that killed off more than a third of American honeybees in 2007-08.2. From Times Online, (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article6808427.ece) but what it won't answer is how the cell damage came to be(e:)
==
Better clear that one up somewhat. What I'm thinking is that for a virus to come to be one also might have to look at what resistance to diseases in general that population had before, like if it could have been lowered by 'earlier unknown, or new, circumstances'. That doesn't mean that it has to be cellphones in particular that have caused it though. But one have to look to a lot of 'chains of cause and effect'. I suspect that it will be difficult to isolate the chain though, there are so much that can play a role? There have been studies showing that bees lose their sense of direction due to cellphones, but we can't take that as proof of the mass death of them.
===
But when unsure, use common sense, and try to look at the sources for your information. sometimes the posts you will get up in a Google search will be the one 'pre paid' for getting a higher ranking. And depending on what the issue is and on how much money and profit there will be involved you need to pick your links with care :) The more money involved, the higher the risk that those first, ah, fifty links(?) will be, ah, biased? There are other way to manipulate rankings too, like 'nesting' links to the one you want to get a higher ranking etc. So when you're looking for something you deem important you might benefit from using several search engines based on different search algorithms. Google on it :)
There are some ideas to what can have caused it. A recent study in Spain points to "Nosema ceranae infection. Nosema ceranae is a strain of microsporidia, single-celled organisms which produce spores. About 1,200 of the known 15,000 microsporidia strains in existence cause diseases in insects. The scientists treated the remaining bees from infected colonies with the antibiotic flumagillin, and reported a complete recovery of those hives." Spain (http://insects.about.com/b/2009/04/14/researchers-may-have-found-the-cure-for-dying-honey-bees.htm)
But I have grave doubts believing that no other 'colonies' been treated with antibiotics before that? It seems like a 'natural' for any farmer when it comes to protecting your livelihood? And it's not only honey bees that are dying. Bumblebees are just as affected bumblebees (http://www.alternet.org/environment/142616/life_without_bumblebees_it%27s_not_just_honeybees_that_are_mysteriously_dying?page=entire)
And just as a 'curiosa'; "The phone radiation is pulsed at 220 cycles (packets) per second which brings it into close proximity of the native frequency of the bees. The hum of their wings is in the frequency range of 190 to 250 cycles per second." Don't know if this is true for all cell phone communication though, but it seems a 'coincidence'? Naah :)
===
As for how, if it had to do with cellphones EM energy?
"Honeybees have been shown to be sensitive to magnetic flux differences of 1 nanotesla (10 microGauss) [4][Theoretically humans could also be sensitive down to less than this level (pineal thermal noise c. 0.24 nanotesla - Smith, 1985). Various sea creatures can detect voltage gradients of a few 10's of microvolts/metre."
Honey bees navigate by observing changes as small as 0.6% in the Earth's magnetic field (2.5 mG out of 400 mG). Other studies have shown that other animals, such as sea turtles and homing pigeons, can navigate using the Earth's magnetic field as a guide. In order to navigate to precision, it is necessary to have many magnetosomes with a permanent dipole moment which are able to maintain their direction in the Earth's magnetic field while being buffeted by Brownian thermal fluctuations.
V.3. Animals: Honey bees follow B fields (Walker/Bitterman, J. Comp. Physiol. 157, 67-73, 1995, and Science 265, 95, 1994) down to a few mG DC accuracy and sea turtles turn when B varies at earth's locations (Science 264, 661 (1994).
42. "Honeybees Can Be Trained to Respond to Very Small Changes in Geomagnetic Field Intensity," M.M. Walker and M.E. Bitterman, J. Exp. Biology 145, 489-494 (1989). (A)"
Take a look here for an alternative view Bees and EM (http://weepnews.blogspot.com/2009/10/ehs-proclamation-honeybees-face.html)
==
And "Wi-fi networks operate in the 2.4 and 5 GHz microwave bands, that is the same order of magnitude as GSM mobile phone microwaves (0,9-1,8 GHz) and the latest mobile brand G3 (1,9-2 GHz and 2,1-2,2 GHz). Higher frequencies are known to be more harmful."
-
Omid, that's a very interesting question, not only for bees :)
There are Swedish studies proving that cell phones do penetrate the blood barrier of the brain.
Swedish study 2008 (http://www.emfacts.com/weblog/?p=995) and you can also take a look at this Mobile phone radiation and health (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_radiation_and_health#Blood-brain_barrier_effects)
What conclusions one can draw from this research?
Use some common sense..
Well, don't wear the phone near the family jewels :)
Use a headset if you have one.
If you like me use a laptop with a 'G3 usb-stick' to connect to the Internet, use the 'extension cord' that comes with it to create a distance between the usb-stick (receiver) and yourself. This one I see as most important as you will be exposed for a long time if you, like me, are an avid fan of the Internet and therefore will be connected for a longer period :)
We are in fact experimenting with ourselves as we all over the globe use those kind of new clever communication gadgets.
As for what the long time effects will be I can't say, and neither can anyone else. When it comes to f.ex radioactive transmissions some studies have found that for people living under a constant exposure of radioactivity the human body seems to be more adaptive (resistant) than when being exposed to sudden 'peaks' of the same? Don't ask me how that would work, but it is a statistical fact according to some sources (Iran).
--Quote---
The background rate for radiation varies considerably with location, being as low as 1.5 mSv/a (1.5 mSv per year) in some areas and over 100 mSv/a in others. People in some parts of Ramsar, a city in northern Iran, receive an annual absorbed dose from background radiation that is up to 260 mSv/a. Despite having lived for many generations in these high background areas, inhabitants of Ramsar show no significant cytogenetic differences compared to people in normal background areas.[citation needed] This has led to the suggestion that high but steady levels of radiation are easier for humans to sustain than sudden radiation bursts.
---End of quote- Ionizing radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionizing_radiation#Human-made_radiation_sources)
We have recently used depleted uranium in armaments (projectiles) in Iraq for the war having been fought there, and research done seems to indicate that there is a correlation between that kind of materials and radioactive sickness radioactive peaks (http://www.uraniumweaponsconference.de/speakers/khadum_du.pdf) and depleted uranium FAQ (http://www.bandepleteduranium.org/en/i/22.html)
And as with all statistics you really will need a lot of it to show one way or another. Our Northern countries are 'blessed' in that way as we early on started to organize studies over our inhabitants without people feeling that those infringed on their privacy. Some countries take those kind of studies as intrusions on their right of privacy, but considering all the new electronic devices we introduce I think they are needed. Then again, other Countries don't have the same sort of centralized working bureaucracies that we have.
One also have to remember that Sweden f.ex have been blessed with peace since its last campaign against Norway 1814. "By the Treaty of Kiel (January 1814) the King of Denmark-Norway had to cede Norway to the King of Sweden, due to the alliance of Denmark-Norway with France during the later phases of the Napoleonic Wars. This treaty was however not accepted by the Norwegians." But we let the Norwegians of the hook peacefully 1905 through a vote where Norway became independent. Not that we Swedes expected it but we at least honored the vote shown which talks in our favor :)
And therefore we've have had a chance for stability few other countries have had. When it comes to bees?
--Quote--
A beehive is a complex system (one mother; several fathers; behavior changes with age during a worker bee's lifetime). I helped with a bit of research beekeeping decades ago, before DNA mapping; breeding study had shown that disease resistance in honeybees is partly managed by behavior tightly programmed genetically.
(Bees from one inbred line cleaned only horizontal surfaces; bees from a different inbred line cleaned only vertical surfaces; each of those was vulnerable to disease organisms that built up on the uncleaned surfaces. They also had different circadian clocks (got up at different times of day. A normal hive with several fathers and good variety genetically would always have some worker bees cleaning every available surface.
It's easy to see that dieoffs would happen whenever some organism got the "key" to successfully invade or infect honeybees; their variability so far has helped assure natural selection will leave enough surviving queens and drones to repopulate. One way I think what's happening now is different: the avoidance of the hives by other honeybees and other insects; they don't immediately move in and rob out all the honey and stored pollen from a hive when a colony disappears.
Heretofore it's always been a truism in beekeeping that seeing a lot of bees around a hive going away burdened is a red flag --- that particular beehive probably is damaged or sick, and has gotten so weak it can't defend its stores, and is being robbed out. That's what's new here as near as I can tell, just reading the popular press --- other bees and other insects avoid the hives when the colony disappears.
They know something. Our problem is to learn what they recognize.
---End of quote--
There is a lively debate going on about it and in many ways it's similar to the one that once was about the effects of smoking. There is an incredible amount of profit involved in cellphones today. As a example a Swedish company went into one of the worst dictatorships known in Eastern Europe siphoning billions to an account owned, presumably, by a lady but more probably going directly down some other pockets just to get a foothold in the cellphone industry there. The most embarrassing thing about it is that the Swedish state was a major stock holder in the company and that we have very clear anti corruptions laws. When asked about it the company declared that as soon as they had checked up this female individual their collective conscience was clear, and what that person did with their money was no longer a concern of theirs :). And as it seems now, neither of our present choice of government.
So, knowing this it's a safe bet to say that there will be a lot of money siphoned into denying this phenomena if it now will be shown to be true. The real problem with it is that most of those bee deaths seems to be related to Northern America and India so far and not so much to Europe where we have a large concentration of cell phones per area?
Take a look here India 2009 (http://www.dailypioneer.com/203392) for recent examples. Now, there is new research linking the deaths in America to "cell damage in bees affected by colony collapse disorder (CCD), which suggests that a virus contributes to a condition that killed off more than a third of American honeybees in 2007-08.2. From Times Online, (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article6808427.ece) but what it won't answer is how the cell damage came to be(e:)
==
Better clear that one up somewhat. What I'm thinking is that for a virus to come to be one also might have to look at what resistance to diseases in general that population had before, like if it could have been lowered by 'earlier unknown, or new, circumstances'. That doesn't mean that it has to be cellphones in particular that have caused it though. But one have to look to a lot of 'chains of cause and effect'. I suspect that it will be difficult to isolate the chain though, there are so much that can play a role? There have been studies showing that bees lose their sense of direction due to cellphones, but we can't take that as proof of the mass death of them.
===
But when unsure, use common sense, and try to look at the sources for your information. sometimes the posts you will get up in a Google search will be the one 'pre paid' for getting a higher ranking. And depending on what the issue is and on how much money and profit there will be involved you need to pick your links with care :) The more money involved, the higher the risk that those first, ah, fifty links(?) will be, ah, biased? There are other way to manipulate rankings too, like 'nesting' links to the one you want to get a higher ranking etc. So when you're looking for something you deem important you might benefit from using several search engines based on different search algorithms. Google on it :)
===
As for how, if it had to do with cellphones EM energy?
"Honeybees have been shown to be sensitive to magnetic flux differences of 1 nanotesla (10 microGauss) [4][Theoretically humans could also be sensitive down to less than this level (pineal thermal noise c. 0.24 nanotesla - Smith, 1985). Various sea creatures can detect voltage gradients of a few 10's of microvolts/metre."
Honey bees navigate by observing changes as small as 0.6% in the Earth's magnetic field (2.5 mG out of 400 mG). Other studies have shown that other animals, such as sea turtles and homing pigeons, can navigate using the Earth's magnetic field as a guide. In order to navigate to precision, it is necessary to have many magnetosomes with a permanent dipole moment which are able to maintain their direction in the Earth's magnetic field while being buffeted by Brownian thermal fluctuations.
V.3. Animals: Honey bees follow B fields (Walker/Bitterman, J. Comp. Physiol. 157, 67-73, 1995, and Science 265, 95, 1994) down to a few mG DC accuracy and sea turtles turn when B varies at earth's locations (Science 264, 661 (1994).
42. "Honeybees Can Be Trained to Respond to Very Small Changes in Geomagnetic Field Intensity," M.M. Walker and M.E. Bitterman, J. Exp. Biology 145, 489-494 (1989). (A)
Take a look here for an alternative view Bees and EM (http://weepnews.blogspot.com/2009/10/ehs-proclamation-honeybees-face.html)
===
And "Wi-fi networks operate in the 2.4 and 5 GHz microwave bands, that is the same order of magnitude as GSM mobile phone microwaves (0,9-1,8 GHz) and the latest mobile brand G3 (1,9-2 GHz and 2,1-2,2 GHz). Higher frequencies are known to be more harmful."
Simple solution. Wear chainmail underware.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=chainmail&oq=chainm&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=XtN8S9OvO5KCswOBjfy8BA&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQsAQwAA
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I will love to see them flying around, just like in those Disney movies.
Wearing chain-mail.
Yep :)
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Hey Geezer, thinking of chainmail :)
A Swedish company will soon be producing synthetic spiderwebs.
Well, not spiderwebs as much as spiders threads.
If that works as they expect, I guess it will boom.
Chainmail, medieval man, just put in some nano-conductive threads in that material and those bees will become indestructible ::))
Now, won't that be a sight when they meet that train we were talking about earlier?
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I apologize if you are still slightly sore because I demolished your argument on the subject of flies encountering trains, but I can assure you that your government is actually issuing "chainmail" underwear to people who believe they being assaulted by EM energy. (No kidding [;D])
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Really :)
Got a link to that?
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Tried to find it in Swedish Geezer but found nothing pointing to your conclusion?
This is the latest publication from FAS "Swedish Council for working life and social research" ”electromagnetic hypersensitivity_Swedish only_2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org) You can translate it with some difficulty if you lift out the text and use some translation tool online like FoxLingo.
The only text available I could find in English was this from The Swedish radiation protection agency, SSI (Statens strålskyddsinstitut 2004) (http://www.infoantenas.es/NR/rdonlyres/0ADD07DC-F4A0-4C5B-9322-BAADF6F385BA/0/informesuecodiciembre2004.pdf from 2004) but I didn't see a thing about that there? And neither in the swedish publication from 2008.
What I do know is that those that think they suffer from it find electromagnetic hypersensitivity to be quite a problem. Whether it have some substance in reality I don't know. When it comes to bees there have been studies in several countries linking cell phones to bees. I'm not taking a stand here, I'm just presenting what I could find. If you want to make a better job of it you're welcome to it Geezer, just make sure you have the links so we can see your sources.
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Why do you think the source is reliable?
If there were even the slightest real basis for this the phones would be banned- the pollination by bees is more important than the phones.
omid sorry BC omid is not as intelligent as you
but omid really thinks the source is reliable
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I doubt intelligence has much to do with it. I have just been around a long time so I have had more chance to spot things like that before.
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I quoted,that mobile technologies are really harmful and is dangerous to everyone who always keep themselves in connected to it. Science study, that radiation affects the brain in continuous relation to it and may cause death. That is why I do not spend a long time in front of the internet. By the way, I learned much from your intelligent conversations.