Naked Science Forum
On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: pandey_23ajay on 06/11/2011 17:41:57
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Energy theory of evolution.
Advanced theory of evolution.
This theory is based on energy level and answers following questions-
1. Why nature requires intelligent creatures like Human beings ?
2. Why evolution occurs?
3. How soul can be found in body system? (A question of super science).
4. When soul leaves a living body? ( Mystery of death)
Statement-
Every system tries to have minimum energy in order to gain maximum stability by incorporating itself in a system which minimizes the energy of incorporated system by loss or utilization of energy in the form of physical or mental activity of incorporating system.
Various systems are-
Incorporated system- is system which is attached to another system called incorporating system usually larger than incorporated system.
Two or more systems will come together only if overall energy of resulting system is lowered.
Atomic system- is atom itself.
Molecular system- is two or more atoms together.
Body system-complex of molecular system.
Soul system-most stable part of body system.
Aim of every body system is to minimize energy of molecular system and soul system and all other systems which are part of the body system. Soul system leaves the body, if body system is unable to lower its energy level which causes death. A soul will attach itself to a body which can lower its energy and provide stability. Soul can be detected inside body if we can measure the energy level of various systems attached to body system, as soul is the most stable part of particular body system. Body system lowers energy by physical activity, mental activity and chemical activity. Since physical activity can be performed to a limited extent by body system, so mental activity evolved in body system which can be used in larger way to lower the overall energy of system. In an attempt to minimize energy, process of evolution came into existence. That is why creatures like Human being evolved who are using more mental and physical activity, which in combined leads to expense of energy and finally leads to stability of body and soul system.
This is the reason for continuous evolution of intelligence and also the reason for evolution of creatures.
By-
Dr Ajay pandey
BDS, MBA
pandey_23ajay@yahoo.co.in
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Your statement jumps around a little bit, so it is hard to follow. Yes, the brain is energetically expensive. However, there is a trade-off between the energetically expensive brain, and the ability to "work smarter", and thus either using less energy, or harvesting more energy. And, of course, adapting to a more diverse environment.
There have been many arguments for a soul being a separate entity from the brain and physiology, but none have been proven. You certainly need to better define what you consider to be the soul, and why you need to invent that concept.
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I agree with CliffordK. Plus I don't think natural selection is always directly tied to to minimizing energy if there are adequate energy resources or an organism has advantages over its competitor.
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Not really pandey_23ajay, we're all part of life's evolution according to Darwin, and the gene research we have done. Maybe there is a soul, maybe not, but we do seem to be able to have compassion and empathy, and that seems more important to me being on Earth than any 'soul' can be.
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1. At this stage, it is difficult to define the chemical nature of soul, that is why i have considered it as a system which is subject of further research. As i said soul is most stable part of any body system, if we can devise an instrument in future which can measure stability of a system, then we can find the soul system, which can help us in soul transplantation like organ transplant.
2. Natural selection in organisms is based on concept of minimum energy, body system, which is most efficient to lower energy of soul system is selected by nature i.e natural selection.
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I think the concept of a soul is a purely religious one having no scientific support or evidence. To talk about transplanting a soul is for me a little bit far fetched and in my opinion belongs more in the realms of science fiction rather then science.
Assylum seeker "You don't believe in God, oh no! You will goto hell for sure."
Airthumbs "So what if I have a good heart and I am a good man?"
Assylum seeker "God will see you have a good soul and he will allow you into heaven."
Airthumbs "So you don't have to believe in God to avoid hell."
Assylum seeker "..........silence............."
Human souls? Animal souls? Insect souls? Plant souls? Bacterial souls? Are there rules for things with and without souls? Again it's all a bit far fetched. As always though this is my opinion and should some mad scientist create a machine that can somehow detect souls then I will eat my hat and all the other hats made throughout history in whatever state they may be. [::)]
By Airthumbs
BSC (hons) & 5 star athletics award [:P]
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By Airthumbs
BSC (hons) & 5 star athletics award [:P]
Is that Bronze Swimming Certificate? I didn't know you could get them with honours... :)
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behind every religion, there is scientific base. science should believe on everything and disbelieve also, only then, science will grow.
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Aim of evolution is evolution of whole universe, it is not just that evolution of life on earth is restricted to welfare of earth, it is connected to whole universe and each and every material and non-material as well,it is related to basic particle responsible for origin of whole universe.soul system mentioned in this theory is related to evolution of this basic particle.
evolution of life is for whole universe and is not as simple as Darwin has thought.
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Aim of such a big universe is evolution of elementary particle constituting the universe through evolution of soul system.
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behind every religion, there is scientific base. science should believe on everything and disbelieve also, only then, science will grow.
In many senses, religion has developed pre-science. Trying to come up with stories to explain events that happened during prehistoric times, but not really having a sound basis to explain those things.
The religions also use their stories to justify ownership of the Earth, claiming that people were put here by God to be the good shepherds of the Earth.
Souls were invented by religion to explain what happens after death, and help explain the meaning of life. But unfortunately the have no scientific basis.
Aim of evolution is evolution of whole universe, it is not just that evolution of life on earth is restricted to welfare of earth, it is connected to whole universe and each and every material and non-material as well,it is related to basic particle responsible for origin of whole universe.soul system mentioned in this theory is related to evolution of this basic particle.
evolution of life is for whole universe and is not as simple as Darwin has thought.
There has been a lot of research to explain the origins of the universe, and the origin of the basic elements in the Universe (Hydrogen), as well as the progression of metallicity over time within the stars and the planets.
Other than being "our sun", there is no evidence that the sun is unique among the approximately 3x1023 stars in the universe.
There are many things that make life as we know it possible on Earth. Just the right sun, temperatures, etc. Plant life has transformed the atmosphere on Earth making human life possible. This is completely independent of souls, and in general independent from the other 3x1023 stars in the universe.
There has been debate about cataclysms that have occurred in the past triggering mass extinctions, as well as spurts in evolution, both which eventually led to the evolution of mammals and humans. Some of these cataclysms may have been associated with other stars and entities outside of our solar system. But, they were not events controlled by anything such as the hand of God. And, most of the major cataclysms that directed the evolution of humanity would have occurred before the evolution of humans, or even early hominids. For example, the dinosaurs were wiped out about 60 million years before the evolution of the first early hominids.
Anyway, you can think of star-star interactions as basically Newtonian/Einsteinian physics. Or, perhaps seemingly random events being triggered. No souls, no destiny, just physical interactions.
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Dear Clifford,
1. As I said, purpose of evolution of life on earth is connected to evolution of elementary particle responsible for origin and maintenance of whole universe and soul system is just provides path for evolution of this elementary particle,if there is no soul system, then life on earth is purposeless
(i would like to know purpose or importance of life on earth in this universe-please comment).
According to me life on earth is for evolution of whole universe in bigger perspective and should be visualized in that way.
2. Hydrogen is element and this theory is concerned with particles at quantum level.
3. evolution is not just competition and natural selection, it is related to quantum mechanics and soul system behaves at quantum level.
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Pandey: a general housekeeping point... it's best if you keep your posts in sequence with the rest of the thread (rather than editing the top post) as that makes it clear for everyone reading which responses are to which posts.
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And I love the fact that the last post says
PLEASE SEE MODIFIED VERSION ABOVE
and the first post saysPLEASE SEE MODIFIED VERSION BELOW.
Scrolling back and forth kept me entertained for hours. Has the internet perpetual motion machine finally been cracked?
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Your assertions about the "body system" appear to be based on a near-total misunderstanding of thermodynamics. I suggest that you sit down with a good elementary undergraduate physical chemistry textbook, and fully understand the minimisation of energy on the micro-level.
if there is no soul system, then life on earth is purposeless
Why do you assume that life on earth is not purposeless? It seems to me that your "theory" comes from your instinctive wish to believe in a purpose to life, not from an interest in the realities of the universe.
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Aim of evolution is evolution of whole universe, it is not just that evolution of life on earth is restricted to welfare of earth, it is connected to whole universe and each and every material and non-material as well,it is related to basic particle responsible for origin of whole universe.soul system mentioned in this theory is related to evolution of this basic particle.
evolution of life is for whole universe and is not as simple as Darwin has thought.
Here you seem to have diverted far from established science, and discussion of the "soul system" is non-science. Evolution is a biological process, and has no aim. The soul is a metaphorical construct, and there is no evidence for it's material existance. As it doesn't exist, it has no place in a scientific theory.
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Dear Rosy,
quote-
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Why do you assume that life on earth is not purposeless? It seems to me that your "theory" comes from
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your instinctive wish to believe in a purpose to life, not from an interest in the realities of the
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universe.
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1. Do you think, such a big universe, lac of species, millions of human being, stars and planet are purposeless. saying that it is purposeful does not need any evidence, have you done anything which is purposeless. if not, how can you think that life on earth is purposeless. every event and activity in nature is well coordinated and purposeful.
2. In this hypothesis, there is interaction of micro (atomic system) and macro (body system) level leading to minimization of energy. interaction within micro level is well defined in your chemistry book but micro-macro interaction is not defined
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or written any present book of chemistry. how body system lowers energy of elementary particles i.e at micro level by physical and mental activity is a question of research. Please think and comment on this interaction.
3. i am not confused with concepts of chemistry but micro-macro interaction leading to minimization of energy must be studied and concepts should be revised.BEST OF LUCK, I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT CANDIDATE TO STUDY THIS.
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Dear BenV,
Every concept and every idea is non-science, before it becomes a science / fact. so please think scientifically.
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Dear All,
Thanks to all who commented on this hypothesis.
Let us end the confusion of soul system, i am removing this particular concept from hypothesis (it requires more research) and proposing modified version. Please post your views on it.
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Energy theory of evolution. (MODIFIED)
Advanced theory of evolution.
This theory is based on energy level and answers following questions-
1. Why nature requires intelligent creatures like Human beings ?
2. Why evolution occurs?
3. What is limit of evolution ?
Statement-
Every system tries to have minimum energy in order to gain maximum stability by incorporating itself in a system which minimizes the energy of incorporated system by loss or utilization of energy in the form of physical or mental activity of incorporating system.
Various systems are-
Incorporated system- is system which is attached to another system called incorporating system usually larger than incorporated system.
Two or more systems will come together only if overall energy of resulting system is lowered.
Atomic system- is atom itself.
Molecular system- is two or more atoms together.
Body system-complex of molecular system.
Particulate system- are particles below atomic level.
Aim of every body system is to minimize energy of molecular, atomic and particulate system and all other systems which are part of the body system. Body system lowers energy by physical activity, mental activity and chemical activity. Since physical activity can be performed to a limited extent by body system, so mental activity evolved in body system which can be used in larger way to lower the overall energy of system. In an attempt to minimize energy, process of evolution came into existence. That is why creatures like Human being evolved who are using more mental and physical activity, which in combined leads to expense of energy and finally leads to stability of atomic and molecular system.
This is the reason for continuous evolution of intelligence and also the reason for evolution of intelligent creatures.
In an attempt to further lower the energy level of atomic, molecular and particulate system, evolution will continue, more and more intelligent creatures will evolve; super intelligent human body system will emerge. But question arises, till what limit evolution will occur?
Once Body system is unable to further provide stability to molecular, atomic and particulate system, evolution for that particular body will stop and nature will eliminate this body system / creature or will modify it. This will be either end of particular creature or emergence of new one. This is the limit of evolution or we can say process of natural selection.
By-
Dr Ajay pandey
BDS, MBA
pandey_23ajay@yahoo.co.in
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3. i am not confused with concepts of chemistry but micro-macro interaction leading to minimization of energy must be studied and concepts should be revised.
Ah... you want to re-write thermodynamics. I see. Well, have fun.
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This theory is based on energy level and answers following questions-
1. Why nature requires intelligent creatures like Human beings ?
2. Why evolution occurs?
3. What is limit of evolution ?
Once you have complex molecules that are capable of replicating themselves, they continue to do so, unless something else stops them. I'm not a good enough chemist to explain how non-replicating molecules suddenly become replicating.
If these replicating things change in some way that helps them to do it better or faster, they have an advantage of other replicating things, especially if they are competing for the same energy or material resources.
Most textbooks define life, or a single cell, as having organization, the ability to reproduce, a metabolism, and response to stimuli. Single cell organisms can respond to stimuli in simple ways, such as moving towards increases in concentration of necessary nutriant (chemotaxis.) One could think of intelligence or brains as simply information processors that allow more complex organisms to interpret sensory stimuli in some manner that gives them a survival advantage over other organisms.
It seems to me that you are looking at all this backwards, and I don't know how you can discuss evolution without talking about natural selection. Nature doesn't really "require" intelligence. Intelligence has a survival advantage for living things with a metabolism.
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I don't have a beef with religion or the attempt to find the "meaning" of life. I also do not believe that anything is completely beyond the scope of science. I do, however, think one has to hold a theory to a higher standard of proof when there is a deep, compelling psychological need to believe it is true, and the human desire to keep existing even after death is about as deep and compelling as it gets.
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Sitting here by the crackling fireplace, it dawned on me... it is our ability to control fire...
Which only leaves us second to the true beasts that control, the controllers of fire!!!
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.artbarbarians.com%2Fgallery2%2Fimages%2F47%2FDays%2520End%2520Black%2520Lab%2520by%2520Scot%2520Storm%2520Large121213726.jpg&hash=ec049742d5482f423f415d43ca7ab7b5)
Oddly... I was thinking about the "Call of the Wild" book... and the image of the dog next to the fireplace (or wood stove?). But... perhaps that is more fiction than reality, as it often gets hot right in front of the fire... and I don't remember seeing our dog tuckered out in front of the fire.
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I don't have a beef with religion or the attempt to find the "meaning" of life. I also do not believe that anything is completely beyond the scope of science. I do, however, think one has to hold a theory to a higher standard of proof when there is a deep, compelling psychological need to believe it is true, and the human desire to keep existing even after death is about as deep and compelling as it gets.
I, on the other hand, do believe that there are many important things that are completely beyond the scope of science, and other ways of knowing than through the edifice of scientific knowledge and technique.
As an example I would point out the differences in aesthetic response to poetry -- why some poetry is regarded as "good" and other as "inferior", or why some people like the works of one famous poet but not of another, etc.
Science is not very good at dealing with emergent properties (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/properties-emergent/ (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/properties-emergent/)). Often, but not always, a new field of science can be brought in to help.
To take an example, it is very difficult to use a complete understanding of the components and the function of various parts of an automobile to arrive at an analysis of traffic jam (English/Australian) =? gridlock (US) . But the latter can be scientifically analysed to a large extent in the scientific field of population statistics.
I have a published scholarly article (Chapter 2 in "Of Minds and Molecules"
(http://www.amazon.com/Minds-Molecules-Philosophical-Perspectives-Chemistry/dp/0195128346/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1321306483&sr=1-6 (http://www.amazon.com/Minds-Molecules-Philosophical-Perspectives-Chemistry/dp/0195128346/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1321306483&sr=1-6), if you are interested)
that deals with this topic in the context of whether chemistry can be reduced to physics.
I like to think about the soul in terms of an analogy: like all analogies it is far from perfect, but it might be instructive. It works as follows:
Brain:mind:spirit as computer CPU:program:problem. Even if you analyse the state and changes in state of every element of a modern computer, it will be all but impossible to determine the detail of the program it was running at the time. Even if you knew everything about the program that was running and its input data, you could at best only make a guess at the particular problem it was being applied to.
As it happens I am a religious person, but I think that is co-incidental. I do not think you would have to have a religion-based outlook to see the position I have just described as a reasonable one.
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Hi pandey_23ajay,
You are making a very common mistake when looking at Evolution and Natural Selection:
You think that evolution is a consequence that stems out of a need to strive to perfection (in your case, you define perfection as "minimal energy state").
Many people think this way but it's completely incorrect!
Evolution is random and the organisms that are still alive today are nowhere near perfection, and are not even going in that direction. They exist simply because they are around long enough to reproduce, that's all.
The only way that Natural Evolution will make human beings smarter than they are today will require two things to occur:
1. First and foremost, this mutation must happen somewhere in the human population by accident (the random factor)
2. That group of people who accidently have this mutation must somehow do better at reproduction than the rest of mankind so their numbers will increase more rapidly than the non-mutated humans, and finally take over the non-mutated humans.
Note: See that I stressed Natural Evolution, because in the near future, mankind will be able to take control over it's own evolutionary processes through biotechnology and thus circumvene the random factor. This however can no longer be called Natural.
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A soul is a very interesting concept, maybe we're all entangled? Does that make for a 'soul' on some minuscule plane of existence? Buddhism have different concepts for it, the one that they seem to find the best is when you stop getting reborn and disappear as a, possibly, 'soul'. Taoism, which is to my liking, doesn't discuss souls at all, as far I've seen. Maybe some could be seen as discussing it, but then only on that 'entangled' plane.
But as far as we can measure there is no 'soul' to be measured. So it's hard to define it as 'science', as that is about what is test and measur-able? Still, we all think, don't we? What are thoughts?
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Quote pandey_23ajay
"Every system tries to have minimum energy in order to gain maximum stability by incorporating itself in a system which minimizes the energy of incorporated system by loss or utilization of energy in the form of physical or mental activity of incorporating system.
Various systems are-
Incorporated system- is system which is attached to another system called incorporating system usually larger than incorporated system.
Two or more systems will come together only if overall energy of resulting system is lowered.
Atomic system- is atom itself.
Molecular system- is two or more atoms together.
Body system-complex of molecular system.
Soul system-most stable part of body system."
The above, highlighted in green, appears to me to be just the way the universe works. That's what gravity does. When two objects combine time dilates for them which is equivalent to a reduction in useful energy, thereby gaining maximum stability through increased entropy.
Intelligence requires more brain power and hence consumption of energy which leads ultimately to an increase of entropy in the overall system. But it could be argued that intelligence initially leads to a decrease in entropy as it requires an input of energy to power that intelligence.
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Intelligence is not just for survival (natural selection), think, do humans need atomic bomb for survival, there was no need or threat from the environment for that higher level of intelligence to create atomic bomb or clones or higher technology, humans can survive without them and can even rule all living organisms on earth. so intelligence has other aim and purpose , apart from survival and natural selection. it should be seen and studied broadly.we should not confine ourself to superficial meaning of evolution as natural seletion. please think.
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pandey_23ajay quote
"Every system tries to have minimum energy in order to gain maximum stability"
Whilst that is in general true, if you consider a living organism to be a system then it is not true.
Minimising energy levels is entropy and there seems to be little evidence that living organisms have any desire to do that. Quite the opposite in fact. They burn food to create energy. If entropy drove evolution why have more complex organisms evolved that require yet more and more energy? Entropy is the final outcome but it is certainly not the driving force when considering life or evolution.
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1. Why nature requires intelligent creatures like Human beings ?
I'm still getting stuck on statement number one. I find little evidence that nature requires intelligent creatures like human beings. There has been life on this planet for most of the time of its existence, 4 billion years give or take. Of that 4 billion years, as far as we know, there has never been an intelligent creature like humans until now. The last few million years at most.
This implies strongly to me that nature does not require, indeed, has little interest in intelligent creatures. Considering what humans are doing to the planet, it could turn out that intelligence is the worst thing to ever happen. Jury's still out on that one.
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Dear MikeS,
organisms extract energy from food, so useful energy of food decreses, and its entropy increases. on the other hand organisms utilises energy from food to increase entropy of body system, so it is in favor of both food as well as body system. entropy is driving force of evolution.
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PLEASE COMMENT ON PROCESS OF EVOLUTION IN NEW THEORIES BY ME.******
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Dear MikeS,
organisms extract energy from food, so useful energy of food decreses, and its entropy increases. on the other hand organisms utilises energy from food to increase entropy of body system, so it is in favor of both food as well as body system. entropy is driving force of evolution.
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PLEASE COMMENT ON PROCESS OF EVOLUTION IN NEW THEORIES BY ME.******
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No.
An input of energy decreases the entropy.
No it's not. One could argue that entropy is the driving force behind the universe and therefore entropy is the driving force behind everything and in general I believe this to be true. However, an input of energy to a system must initially decrease it's entropy. In this instance you use the term 'body system'.
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Everything, every action is natural, it is not the nature which selects organisms (natural selection) but organisms select and utilise, adapt and can even modify nature according to their need as humans do, not only humans many animals make nest / home for themselves and modify nature.
INTELLIGENCE IS TOOL OF FASTER EVOLUTION THROUHG TECHNIQUES AND TECHNOLOGY WHICH ULTIMATELY HELPS IN BETTER ADAPTATION AND SURVIVAL, NOT ONLY FOR HUMANS, WE HAVE RESPONSIBILITY TO DO SAME FOR OTHER CREATURES ALSO AND UPLIFT THE NATURE, THAT IS EVOLUTION TOWARDS MORE INTELLIGENCE INCREASES ENTROPY OF BODY SYSTEM OF ALL ORGANISMS.
INTELLIGENT CREATURES ARE PROTECTOR AND TOOLS OF SURVIVAL OF WHOLE NATURE.
NATURAL SELECTION SHOULD BE GIVEN DEEPER MEANING, DO NOT THINK SUPERFICIAL, LETS MOVE AHEAD***
******PLEASE READ PROCESS OF EVOLUTION AND COMMENT*****
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Pandey, I don't have a clue what it is you just posted. Except that humans have a responsibility for nurturing the entire ecosystem. Unfortunately up till now, we have done, and continue to do, an extremely poor job of it.
Beyond that concept though, I do not understand what you were trying to convey in this post.
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I want to convey the meaning of natural selection, importannce of intelligence that is intelligence is not just for survival but has other purpose also and increasing entropy of body system which is responsible for incresing intelligence and finally evolution.
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Energy theory of evolution. (MODIFIED)
Advanced theory of evolution.
This theory is based on energy level and answers following questions-
1. Why nature requires intelligent creatures like Human beings ?
2. Why evolution occurs?
3. What is limit of evolution ?
Statement-
Every system tries to have minimum energy in order to gain maximum stability by incorporating itself in a system which minimizes the energy of incorporated system by loss or utilization of energy in the form of physical or mental activity of incorporating system, that is increasing entropy of body system is responsible for increasing intelligence and finally evolution.
Various systems are-
Incorporated system- is system which is attached to another system called incorporating system usually larger than incorporated system.
Two or more systems will come together only if overall energy of resulting system is lowered.
Atomic system- is atom itself.
Molecular system- is two or more atoms together.
Body system-complex of molecular system.
Particulate system- are particles below atomic level.
Aim of every body system is to minimize energy of molecular, atomic and particulate system and all other systems which are part of the body system. Body system lowers energy by physical activity, mental activity and chemical activity. Since physical activity can be performed to a limited extent by body system, so mental activity evolved in body system which can be used in larger way to lower the overall energy of system. In an attempt to minimize energy, process of evolution came into existence. That is why creatures like Human being evolved who are using more mental and physical activity, which in combined leads to expense of energy and finally leads to stability of atomic and molecular system.
This is the reason for continuous evolution of intelligence and also the reason for evolution of intelligent creatures.
In an attempt to further lower the energy level of atomic, molecular and particulate system, evolution will continue, more and more intelligent creatures will evolve; super intelligent human body system will emerge. But question arises, till what limit evolution will occur?
Once Body system is unable to further provide stability to molecular, atomic and particulate system, evolution for that particular body will stop and nature will eliminate this body system / creature or will modify it. This will be either end of particular creature or emergence of new one. This is the limit of evolution or we can say process of natural selection.
By-
Dr Ajay pandey
BDS, MBA
pandey_23ajay@yahoo.co.in