Post by: smart on 11/04/2021 23:33:24
Compulsory mask wearing is a subliminal method to stimulate stress-mediated dopamine transmission in the striatum thereby enhancing post-synaptic D2 receptors connectivity from the central amygdala and nucleus accumbens. This extracellular dopamine activity in the striatum may prime neuronal (chemo)signaling associated to active avoidance conditioning, a Pavlovian type of instrumental learning.
Consequently, is dopamine-mediated avoidance conditioning a reversible fear-extinction learning paradigm?
What do you think?
smart
Post by: Origin on 12/04/2021 00:09:20
Post by: smart on 12/04/2021 07:02:07
I think you are joking...
lol... :D
Thanks for sharing!
Post by: Kryptid on 12/04/2021 07:31:51
Post by: smart on 12/04/2021 07:47:45
Compulsory mask-wearing is to reduce the spread of COViD. There's nothing subliminal involved.
A great amount of documentation is fully available on the effects of intermittent hypoxic stress on neuronal activity, arousal and human metabolism. Safety conditioning (Active avoidance) is just another paradigm associated to the psychological outcomes of chronic surgical mask wearing.
I believe a subliminal (or passive) outcome associated with chronic mask wearing is in the avoidance paradigm as there is nothing in COVID19 theory that may suggest a direct threat cue, thereby this compulsory behavior could be the result of instrumental (fear) conditioning.
Anyway, your typical avoidance of the initial question is largely insufficient to surprise me. ;)
Post by: Kryptid on 12/04/2021 07:52:37
Post by: smart on 12/04/2021 08:12:18
I wear a mask for hours while doing physical labor at work. I don't experience hypoxic stress from it, so I don't know why you are bringing that up.
I guess you never considered the fact that many healthcare workers do suffers from mild/intermittent hypoxic stress associated with chronic surgical mask wearing at work... These acute physiological effects are well known among scientists working on human metabolism and hypoxia.
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/04/2021 08:35:05
A great amount of documentation is fully available on the effects of intermittent hypoxic stressAnd because masks do not produce hypoxia, that research is irrelevant, isn't it?
If you think this
many healthcare workers do suffers from mild/intermittent hypoxic stress
is true then you need to show evidence.
Because, in the real world, the facts show that they do not.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-doctor-begs-people-wear-22366171
https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Wellness/doctor-runs-22-miles-face-mask-prove-impair/story?id=72353323
Post by: smart on 12/04/2021 08:47:49
A great amount of documentation is fully available on the effects of intermittent hypoxic stressAnd because masks do not produce hypoxia, that research is irrelevant, isn't it?
If you think thismany healthcare workers do suffers from mild/intermittent hypoxic stress
is true then you need to show evidence.
Because, in the real world, the facts show that they do not.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-doctor-begs-people-wear-22366171
https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Wellness/doctor-runs-22-miles-face-mask-prove-impair/story?id=72353323
This wishful thinking is not appropriate scientific discussion as its not relevant to discuss hypoxia-related topics in this thread.
In contrast, chronic/intermittent mask wearing do obviously alter normoxic oxygenation levels (ie: SpO2/PAO2) but this is out of scope and COVID19-related misinformation is not helpful here.
Please help yourself and go read some online books.
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/04/2021 10:38:41
This wishful thinking is not appropriate scientific discussionThen stop doing it.
Do what the rest of us do, and use actual evidence (rather than silly conspiracies) as the basis for your decisions.
its not relevant to discuss hypoxia-related topics in this thread.Well, if it's not relevant, why did you bring it up by posting this?
the effects of intermittent hypoxic stress on neuronal activity,
In contrast, chronic/intermittent mask wearing do obviously alter normoxic oxygenation levels (ie: SpO2/PAO2)That is clearly wrong- and the videos prove it.
and COVID19-related misinformation is not helpful here.Then stop posting it.
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/04/2021 10:39:29
If you think this
Quote from: smart on Today at 08:12:18
"many healthcare workers do suffers from mild/intermittent hypoxic stress"
is true, then you need to show evidence.
Post by: evan_au on 12/04/2021 11:21:07
Quote from: smart
there is nothing in COVID19 theory that may suggest a direct threatWhen China started two 1000-bed hospitals in Wuhan (for completion in 2 weeks), that suggested a direct threat to me.
Post by: Origin on 12/04/2021 13:32:53
lol...You weren't joking?!
Thanks for sharing!
You really believe that mask wearing is some sort of conspiracy? OK then, have a good day and don't forget to wear your tin foil hat.
Post by: Bored chemist on 12/04/2021 13:36:17
there is nothing in COVID19 theory that may suggest a direct threat cueI don't know about the "theory", but in practice:
Deaths:
2,951,714
from
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Post by: Kryptid on 12/04/2021 14:58:14
In contrast, chronic/intermittent mask wearing do obviously alter normoxic oxygenation levels
If it's "obvious", then you should be able to supply evidence showing that it is so.
Post by: smart on 14/04/2021 21:48:51
In contrast, chronic/intermittent mask wearing do obviously alter normoxic oxygenation levels
If it's "obvious", then you should be able to supply evidence showing that it is so.
That is not the subject of this thread. I was hoping to discuss about the relevant association between chronic mask wearing and avoidance learning. In contrast, there is sufficient peer-reviewed studies on the effects of mask wearing on oxygen and carbon dioxide consumption. There was no need to hijack this post with a low-level brainwashing video.... :(
Predator avoidance conditioning is a real problem associated to the etiology of dysfunctional surgical mask use and very few people are aware of the psychological effects associated to long-term mask wearing.
Anyway, my research found reliable evidences that stress-dependent cortisol overexpression may mediates avoidance response conditioning in people wearing a face mask on long-term basis by stimulating inhibitory dopamine signaling in the striatum, thereby promoting avoidance behavior, a lesser-known type of instrumental/safety conditioning.
Likewise, hypoxic stress may drives dopaminergic signaling thereby enhancing instrumental conditioning of avoidance behavior: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1074742711000931
smart
ps: please stop the low-level ad hominem thread hijacking 8)
Post by: Kryptid on 14/04/2021 21:54:09
That is not the subject of this thread.
Masks producing hypoxia is a necessary component of your idea, is it not? If masks don't produce hypoxia, then your idea is wrong.
In contrast, there is sufficient peer-reviewed studies on the effects of mask wearing on oxygen and carbon dioxide consumption.
Care to post them?
There was no need to hijack this post with a low-level brainwashing video....
How are those videos brain washing?
Anyway, my research found reliable evidences
Then please post that evidence.
Likewise, hypoxic stress may drives dopaminergic signaling thereby enhancing instrumental conditioning of avoidance behavior: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1074742711000931
Which is irrelevant if masks don't cause hypoxia.
ps: please stop the low-level ad hominem thread hijacking
I never used ad hominem.
Post by: smart on 14/04/2021 22:03:45
That is not the subject of this thread.
Masks producing hypoxia is a necessary component of your idea, is it not? If masks don't produce hypoxia, then your idea is wrong.In contrast, there is sufficient peer-reviewed studies on the effects of mask wearing on oxygen and carbon dioxide consumption.
Care to post them?There was no need to hijack this post with a low-level brainwashing video....
How are those videos brain washing?Anyway, my research found reliable evidences
Then please post that evidence.Likewise, hypoxic stress may drives dopaminergic signaling thereby enhancing instrumental conditioning of avoidance behavior: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1074742711000931
Which is irrelevant if masks don't cause hypoxia.ps: please stop the low-level ad hominem thread hijacking
I never used ad hominem.
Did you ever attempted to hold your breath while underwater? Chronic/intermittent mask wearing does alter systemic oxygen and CO2 input in such ways that your brain cannot notice any differences. This is known as hypobaric hypoxia and its well-known scientific phenomenon. ;)
Anyway, if you insist on discussing about chronic hypoxia here i should probably mute you off, since thread hijacking is definitely not my cup of tea.. .
Post by: Kryptid on 14/04/2021 22:07:47
Did you ever attempted to hold your breath while underwater ?
Normally, you wouldn't be expected to hold your breath while wearing a mask.
chronic/intermittent mask wearing does alter systemic oxygen and CO2 input in such ways that your brain cannot notice any differences. This is known as hypobaric hypoxia and its well-known scientific phenomenon.
Evidence please.
Anyway, if you insist on discussing about chronic hypoxia here
Please explain to me how your idea does not involve chronic hypoxia.
i should probably mute you off
Good luck, since I'm a moderator.
since thread hijacking is definitely not my cup of tea.
This isn't thread hijacking. If you will recall what you said here:
A great amount of documentation is fully available on the effects of intermittent hypoxic stress on neuronal activity, arousal and human metabolism. Safety conditioning (Active avoidance) is just another paradigm associated to the psychological outcomes of chronic surgical mask wearing.
You are definitely talking about mask-induced hypoxia.
Post by: Bored chemist on 14/04/2021 22:31:41
hypobaric hypoxiaWhat is hypobaric about it?
Or are you just stitching "sciencey sounding words" together?
Chronic/intermittent mask wearing does alter systemic oxygen and CO2 iThe evidence makes it clear that your claim is false.
Anyway, my research found reliable evidencesCite it , or shut it.
Post by: smart on 14/04/2021 23:30:08
hypobaric hypoxiaWhat is hypobaric about it?
Or are you just stitching "sciencey sounding words" together?Chronic/intermittent mask wearing does alter systemic oxygen and CO2 iThe evidence makes it clear that your claim is false.Anyway, my research found reliable evidencesCite it , or shut it.
You and Kryptid are deceitfully short-minded, perhaps because it goes inline with the policies on this forum. I have no motivations in trying to discuss science with people not able to understand that 2+2=4 or that simply blocking your nose and mouth do affect breathing. There is basic science manuals for this online and elsewhere.
Moreover its very unfortunate that this forum is being condemned to such evil deceptive thread hijackings by people that try to convince me that 2+2=5.
smart
Post by: Kryptid on 14/04/2021 23:32:14
that simply blocking your nose and mouth do affect breathing.
Except that the kind of masks encouraged during the pandemic are not "blocking" your nose and mouth. They are porous. They allow gases in and out.
Moreover its very unfortunate that this forum is being condemned to such evil deceptive thread hijackings by people that try to convince me that 2+2=5.
Please show where such a thing happened.
Post by: smart on 14/04/2021 23:42:17
that simply blocking your nose and mouth do affect breathing.
Except that the kind of masks encouraged during the pandemic are not "blocking" your nose and mouth. They are porous. They allow gases in and out.
Yes they do allow O2 and CO2 exchanges except they also alter the respiratory rate accordingly. OT.
Post by: Colin2B on 14/04/2021 23:52:33
Moreover its very unfortunate that this forum is being condemnedPlease show evidence of anyone condemning this forum for questioning your claims - other than yourself.
Post by: Kryptid on 14/04/2021 23:54:57
Yes they do allow O2 and CO2 exchanges except they also alter the respiratory rate accordingly.
First of all, evidence?
Second of all, can you show how an elevated respiratory rate would somehow lead to hypoxia?
Post by: Petrochemicals on 15/04/2021 00:42:23
Post by: Kryptid on 15/04/2021 05:05:20
I thought the fact that cases rose even though mask wearing was mandatory proved that.
No, because (1) masks are not 100% effective, (2) those who do wear masks don't wear them 24/7, and (3) there are plenty of those who either don't wear their masks properly or don't wear them at all.
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/04/2021 08:54:24
Why didn't you simply cite the evidence you claim to have found?hypobaric hypoxiaWhat is hypobaric about it?
Or are you just stitching "sciencey sounding words" together?Chronic/intermittent mask wearing does alter systemic oxygen and CO2 iThe evidence makes it clear that your claim is false.Anyway, my research found reliable evidencesCite it , or shut it.
You and Kryptid are deceitfully short-minded, perhaps because it goes inline with the policies on this forum. I have no motivations in trying to discuss science with people not able to understand that 2+2=4 or that simply blocking your nose and mouth do affect breathing. There is basic science manuals for this online and elsewhere.
Moreover its very unfortunate that this forum is being condemned to such evil deceptive thread hijackings by people that try to convince me that 2+2=5.
smart
That would have left Kryptid and me looking really stupid and you looking like a scientists.
Your decision not to cite it achieved the opposite.
Post by: smart on 19/04/2021 13:57:16
Please read https://www.factcheck.org/2021/04/scicheck-stories-falsely-cite-stanford-study-to-misinform-on-face-masks/ before deciding whether to read the post
WARNING - THIS POST IS FALSE NEWS - CLICK AND BE BRAINWASHED AT YOUR OWN RISK
Spoiler: show
Post by: smart on 19/04/2021 14:07:27
Post by: Kryptid on 19/04/2021 18:45:59
Quote
There is some evidence that the use of surgical masks can induce mild hypoxia with a low level of activity (e.g. performing surgery) with prolonged use. There is no evidence that this decrease in oxygenation is clinically significant. The degree of hypoxia associated with surgical mask use, N-95 mask use, or the combination at rest and with exertion is unclear and warrants further investigation, particularly given the current widespread use of both due to the COVID-19 pandemic. Our working hypothesis is that there is a decrement in oxygenation with the use of a mask with exertion. The general public is being advised to wear a mask, including those with pre-existing pulmonary disease and heart disease. If there is evidence of a statistically significant decrease in oxygen saturation with short duration mask use with exertion, then further studies on patients at risk for decompensation due to mask-induced hypoxia is warranted. Our working hypothesis is that there is a decrement in oxygenation with the use of a mask with exertion.
Whether or not it is significant probably depends on the individual as well. Then there is also this: https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speaking-of-health/debunked-myths-about-face-masks
Quote
3. Myth: Wearing a mask will increase the amount of carbon dioxide I breathe and will make me sick.
For many years, health care providers have worn masks for extended periods of time with no adverse health reactions. The CDC recommends wearing cloth masks while in public, and this option is very breathable. There is no risk of hypoxia, which is lower oxygen levels, in healthy adults. Carbon dioxide will freely diffuse through your mask as you breathe.
Post by: smart on 19/04/2021 23:40:48
3. Myth: Wearing a mask will increase the amount of carbon dioxide I breathe and will make me sick.
Fact check: Breathing through a face respirator or surgical mask will decrease oxygen and carbon dioxide consumption.
Note that this is out of scope from the original thread.
Post by: Kryptid on 20/04/2021 02:26:24
Fact check: Breathing through a face respirator or surgical mask will decrease oxygen and carbon dioxide consumption.
Well, you don't consume carbon dioxide, so that says a lot about that "fact check" of yours...
Note that this is out of scope from the original thread.
Okay, if you don't want to talk about hypoxia, I'll take a look at your original question:
Consequently, is dopamine-mediated avoidance conditioning a reversible fear-extinction learning paradigm?
If your question is whether people will willingly stop wearing masks once the pandemic is over, the answer is obviously yes. I take my mask off whenever I get home.
Post by: Bored chemist on 20/04/2021 08:43:58
For people interested in stress-induced avoidance conditioning a separate thread about this topic is available here: <<<link removed>>>In a forum which, under the heading of "Biology and Medicine" includes just three sub headings
Sexology
Synthetic biology and
neurocardiology.
That's an interesting level of specialisation.
And which also says "115 Posts in 51 Topics by 2 Members. "
Basically, you wrote a forum to agree with yourself.
Do you have any idea how pathetic that is?
Post by: smart on 20/04/2021 08:56:34
Well, you don't consume carbon dioxide, so that says a lot about that "fact check" of yours...
Thats incorrect. Even without rebreathing through a surgical mask a small percentage of CO2 will get inhaled.
Quote from: Kryptid
If your question is whether people will willingly stop wearing masks once the pandemic is over, the answer is obviously yes. I take my mask off whenever I get home.
Thank you for your input.
I recall to had many interesting talks with you back in the days. :)
I noticed as well that many people are dreaming that this pandemic scam will end someday.
Just for your info i don't wear mask outside except when mandatory in local stores. I believe this type of stress-dependent conditioning do promotes pathological social avoidance as excessive (hypoxic) stress does stimulate inhibitory dopamine activity in the ventral striatum.
Likewise, striatal dopamine signaling can also prime the amygdala and hippocampus towards instrumental learning of avoidance.
In other words, the hypoxia-mediated overstimulation of dopaminergic cells in the striatum may potentially act as partial/selective dopamine agonists thereby promoting antipsychotic activity.
Unfortunately, that novel mechanisms is poorly understood and most people don't understand science enough to notice any subliminal changes in their behavior since the beginning of the "pandemic".
smart
Post by: Colin2B on 20/04/2021 09:48:37
I noticed as well that many people are dreaming that this pandemic scam will end someday.Please steer well clear of any conspiracy theories. This pandemic is real.
Also, please do not advertise your personal forum created to support your theories.
Post by: Kryptid on 20/04/2021 14:35:19
Thats incorrect. Even without rebreathing through a surgical mask a small percentage of CO2 will get inhaled.
Yes, but you don't "consume" it like you consume oxygen. It's a waste product, not a vital gas. Besides, following your logic, shouldn't the face mask increase carbon dioxide consumption instead of decreasing it?
pandemic scam
It isn't a scam. The virus is real. I know a lot of people who caught it and one who died from it.
In other words, the hypoxia-mediated
So now you've brought up hypoxia again. Is hypoxia relevant to this thread or not? Make up your mind.
Post by: Bored chemist on 20/04/2021 14:46:47
I believe this type of stress-dependent conditioning do promotes...We recognise that you believe it.
But we keep asking for your evidence in support of that belief and you don't provide any.
In effect, you are preaching.
Post by: smart on 21/04/2021 05:06:26
Yes, but you don't "consume" it like you consume oxygen. It's a waste product, not a vital gas. Besides, following your logic, shouldn't the face mask increase carbon dioxide consumption instead of decreasing it?
i believe both O2 and CO2 are essential particles that are being inhaled during normal respiration.
Correct me if im wrong.
smart
Post by: Kryptid on 21/04/2021 05:59:29
i believe both O2 and CO2 are essential particles that are being inhaled during normal respiration.
Oxygen is, but carbon dioxide is not. Carbon dioxide is a waste product of respiration and the air is normally less than 1% carbon dioxide (compared to about 21% oxygen).
Post by: Bored chemist on 21/04/2021 08:35:03
Correct me if im wrong.We keep trying, but you don't listen.
CO2 is not needed and some diving systems actively scrub it out.
Post by: The Spoon on 21/04/2021 09:50:27
Oxygen and carbon dioxide are not particles.Yes, but you don't "consume" it like you consume oxygen. It's a waste product, not a vital gas. Besides, following your logic, shouldn't the face mask increase carbon dioxide consumption instead of decreasing it?
i believe both O2 and CO2 are essential particles that are being inhaled during normal respiration.
Correct me if im wrong.
smart
Post by: Colin2B on 24/04/2021 04:31:14
From "Facemasks in the COVID-19 era: A health hypothesis":Why are you quoting a False News article that contains a great deal of misinformation.
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/04/scicheck-stories-falsely-cite-stanford-study-to-misinform-on-face-masks/
You seem to be trying to pass off incorrect info by wrapping it up in pseudoscientific language.
Calling yourself ‘smart’ rather than ‘tdkm30’ doesn’t make you smart.
This is another piece of misdirection:
Did you ever attempted to hold your breath while underwater? Chronic/intermittent mask wearing does alter systemic oxygen and CO2 input in such ways that your brain cannot notice any differences. This is known as hypobaric hypoxia and its well-known scientific phenomenon.Hypobaric hypoxia (also known as altitude sickness) is a result of lower air pressure, not the increased pressure experienced during swimming underwater. It is not an effect of mask wearing.
Long time no see eh?
Since you were here last we are not keen to promote false news or conspiracy theories. If you persist in supporting or linking to these you may face a ban or severe restrictions on your posting rights.
Post by: Kryptid on 24/04/2021 06:27:37
Why are you quoting a False News article that contains a great deal of misinformation.
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/04/scicheck-stories-falsely-cite-stanford-study-to-misinform-on-face-masks/
You seem to be trying to pass off incorrect info by wrapping it up in pseudoscientific language.
Calling yourself ‘smart’ rather than ‘tdkm30’ doesn’t make you smart.
Thank you for posting this. I had actually been fooled into thinking it was legitimate.
Post by: Jolly2 on 29/04/2021 13:37:11
fe
3. Myth: Wearing a mask will increase the amount of carbon dioxide I breathe and will make me sick.
Fact check: Breathing through a face respirator or surgical mask will decrease oxygen and carbon dioxide consumption.
Note that this is out of scope from the original thread.
No surgical masks will not reduce anything because they are open and designed for surgery specifically to prevent droplets or breath from a surgeon entering into the area being operated on.
So you are referencing m95 masks used in the building industry to prevent dust respiration. Most people that are forced to wear these masks at work are also advised about how long for, how much time they need to take a break without the mask. As for the general public, most people only use a mask while shopping or on public transportation, which seriously limits the amount of time people wear them, at a school I attended people only wore masks while moving arround and took them off when safely social distanced at their desks. There is no need to wear a mask outside.
Ergo I doubt the effects you are concerned about would actually happen, people are not wearing masks all day everywhere, and shouldn't at worse they intermittently wear them for a few hours max.
Post by: Bored chemist on 29/04/2021 13:57:55
Most people that are forced to wear these masks at work are also advised about how long for, how much time they need to take a break without the maskOK
You should be able to tell us where to find that "advice" if it exists.
Please do so.
Otherwise it just looks like you are making **** up.
Post by: Colin2B on 29/04/2021 23:51:40
As far as I am aware only WHO make any comment about length of time a mask should be worn (4hrs) but nothing about breaks, I think Australia and France follow that.Most people that are forced to wear these masks at work are also advised about how long for, how much time they need to take a break without the maskOK
You should be able to tell us where to find that "advice" if it exists.
Please do so.
Otherwise it just looks like you are making **** up.
CDC and HSE don’t give any limits, quoting wearer times of up to 8hrs in studies. They do mention that some people may suffer heat rash or dermatitis through prolonged use, but leave it to individuals to decide.
The WHO recommendation seems to be based on a worst case of hot humid conditions and the time taken before the mask becomes uncomfortable and wearer starts adjusting it.
In reality, the need to eat or drink, or just take a break are likely to be the limiting factors.