Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: RobC on 14/03/2018 17:44:15
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In the same way that chimpanzees will never understand classical physics, have humans just not got the intellectual capacity to understand quantum mechanics?
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I would suggest that while “chimpanzees will never understand classical physics” is true for all chimpanzees, that “have humans just not got the intellectual capacity to understand quantum mechanics?” is not true for all humans
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I'd be interested to know what "understanding quantum mechanics" actually implies.
There can be no doubt that humans have a good working knowledge of the potential of QM; but how far do we go beyond the "shut up and calculate" stage?
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If you are a philosopher it may be shut up and calculate. If you are a scientist it would be more like what can we learn from this? Too much is made of the so called weirdness of QM. That is just the way things are. If we don't like it then that is our problem.
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If you are a scientist it would be more like what can we learn from this?
True, but "big business" tends to take the stage when there is a lot of money to be made, and the higher aspirations of scientists can easily become marginalised.
Too much is made of the so called weirdness of QM
Is weirdness more than just perception?
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I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics. So do not take the lecture too seriously, feeling that you really have to understand in terms of some model what I am going to describe, but just relax and enjoy it. I am going to tell you what nature behaves like.
I have observed in teaching quantum mechanics... The student begins by learning the tricks of the trade. He learns how to make calculations in quantum mechanics and get the right answers, how to calculate the scattering of neutrons by protons and so forth. To learn the mathematics of the subject and to learn how to use it takes about six months. This is the first stage in learning quantum mechanics, and it is comparatively painless.
The second stage comes when the student begins to worry because he does not understand what he has been doing. He worries because he has no clear physical picture in his head. He gets confused in trying to arrive at a physical explanation for each of the mathematical tricks he has been taught. He works very hard and gets discouraged because he does not seem to be able to think clearly. This second stage often lasts six months or longer. It is strenuous and unpleasant.
Then, unexpectedly, the third stage begins. The student suddenly says to himself, “I understand quantum mechanics,” or rather he says, “I understand now that there isn’t anything to be understood.” The difficulties which seemed so formidable have mysteriously vanished. What has happened is that he has learned to think directly and unconsciously in quantum-mechanical language. He is no longer trying to explain everything in terms of prequantum conceptions.
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If I can be metaphorical here, and thus maybe use the idea of a pop star. They speak of and sing about the idea of this and that.....love for instance. Are they though in "reality" "the best" at love in their own love life, "in reality", despite everyone believing their song suggests so?
Is not the same true with science? Should it be? We sell ideas, but do the out there ideas as suggested here like quantum mechanics actually work "for us" in our own lives? Is that the gist of this post?
Without being rude, quantum mechanics is very understandable.
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do the out there ideas as suggested here like quantum mechanics actually work "for us" in our own lives?
If they didn't, none of us would be posting on this, or any other, forum.
Knowing how they work, and knowing why they work, are very different things.
Without being rude, quantum mechanics is very understandable.
Would that be the how, or the why?
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When people tried to learn astronomy before Kepler in the school, at first it should be strange all that deferents, epicycles and equants to decribe the planets movements. But after become used to calculate, and see that it worked, it might become like a second nature.
Learning about Hermitian operators, state vectors or commutators may be something like that.
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In the same way that chimpanzees will never understand classical physics, have humans just not got the intellectual capacity to understand quantum mechanics?
It has nothing to do with intellectual capacity and everything to do with QM being removed from our experience. We say we understand something when we have a physical picture of it and have an intuitive feel of it. That can't happen with quantum mechanics because we are macroscopic entities and QM addresses entities on the atomic scale. Thus we can know QM (meaning we can use it to predict nature) but we can't understand it (don't have a clear mental picture of it).
Feynman explains this in this YouTube video -
I have to admit that I wish he never said we don't understand it because people who aren't trained physicists assume it means we have no idea what's going on and don't know what we're doing and that has led to far too many amatures creating new theories which are all rubbish but who expect professional physicists to consider them because they/we are supposed to be open minded. Sigh!
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...people who aren't trained physicists assume it means we have no idea what's going on and don't know what we're doing and that has led to far too many amatures creating new theories which are all rubbish but who expect professional physicists to consider them because they/we are supposed to be open minded. Sigh!
Sensible words. Usually they are either trying to use classical ideas to understand QM or are overtaken by what they believe is weirdness, hence anything goes.
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To rephrase what I said, we don't understand nature at the subatomic level but we do understand the theory created to make predictions. So we can't picture what goes on but we can make predictions, sometimes that means stating a probability.
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So we can't picture what goes on but we can make predictions, sometimes that means stating a probability.
This, I think can be a real problem for anyone not trained in maths/physics. But even at a very basic level it’s obvious that many non-physicists have a very confused idea of QM even though they claim it is understandable. Eg https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=72373.msg533337#msg533337
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I have no problem with either. On a microscopic scale, energy is quantised, but the quanta are so small that for many practical purposes we can use a continuous approximation.
Most apes use classical physics at least as well as most humans, with the possible exception of projectiles: I am always amazed at our ability to pick up any object and throw it into a waste bin without having to contemplate its aerodynamics. My primatologist friends say that chimps are capable of adequate accuracy with training, but just don't have any interest in darts or basketball. Very few humans understand cricket.
I have watched a gorilla conduct a null experiment to investigate gravitation. Unlike Galileo (whose most famous but probably apocryphal experiment he replicated) he was not persecuted by religious parasites.
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I am always amazed at our ability to pick up any object and throw it into a waste bin without having to contemplate its aerodynamics.
There is always the possibility of luck. Years ago, I was walking past the open front of a stone cutters' hut. The three occupants were having a break, and were trying, unsuccessfully, to throw stones into a pipe protruding from a pile of rubble, some yards away. Almost without breaking stride, I picked up a stone and threw it straight into the pipe. That evening, I tried again, without ever even hitting the pipe. I never did tell the stone cutters.
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I am always amazed at our ability to pick up any object and throw it into a waste bin without having to contemplate its aerodynamics.
There is always the possibility of luck. Years ago, I was walking past the open front of a stone cutters' hut. The three occupants were having a break, and were trying, unsuccessfully, to throw stones into a pipe protruding from a pile of rubble, some yards away. Almost without breaking stride, I picked up a stone and threw it straight into the pipe. That evening, I tried again, without ever even hitting the pipe. I never did tell the stone cutters.
Totally awesome story! :)
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There are times when you know your aim is true and that you will hit the target. There is 100% certainty and you do indeed hit the target. In martial arts this is called being one with the target. As if you are part of the target. I have no explanation for this 'feeling' but I have experienced it on occasions. This can also be termed 'in the zone'.