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Quote from: Jolly2 on 02/02/2021 21:07:25No, the earth wouldn't exist to have any gravity if you did that.Then let's say we have a shell around the Earth. Then we inject the heat necessary to turn it into a plasma that is hot enough to dissociate nuclei. We use the necessary magnetic fields to hold the plasma away from the shell so it won't melt. So you still have all of Earth's original mass inside of the shell (plus whatever mass-energy came from the heat you used to vaporize it).
No, the earth wouldn't exist to have any gravity if you did that.
Then you would have the same gravity, but you would also have the strong and weak necular force as well as the all the other mater like quarks and leptons.
Quote from: Jolly2 on 02/02/2021 21:27:24Then you would have the same gravity, but you would also have the strong and weak necular force as well as the all the other mater like quarks and leptons.Then you can fill the sphere with an Earth's mass-energy worth of light. No strong or weak nuclear forces there.
Photons are massless
Quote from: Jolly2 on 03/02/2021 02:23:56 Photons are masslessNo, they aren't. They have a mass that depends upon their energy. It's their invariant (rest) mass that is zero.We know for a fact that light produces its own gravitational field. Gravitational lensing is a phenomenon confirmed by observation, so we know that the Sun's gravity pulls on light. However, due to conservation of momentum, the Sun itself must also be pulled by an equal force in the opposite direction by that same light. So, in the process, light must have its own gravity that pulls on the Sun.
Dissolving dipoles is a bad idea. It would accelerate the earth's mass into a earth wind thru-out our system.
wow now that's a theory
"must" have it's own gravity?
Could not another force be aiding lights escape?
In the end light is radiation.
to get photons to radiate from, as light is a radiation, the weak force must play a role in the decay process.
Could it not be the weak force that allows light to escape the gravity?
Quote from: Jolly2 on 03/02/2021 13:30:01wow now that's a theoryNo, it isn't.
Quote from: Jolly2 on 03/02/2021 13:30:01"must" have it's own gravity?Yes, otherwise Newton's third law is violated.
Quote from: Jolly2 on 03/02/2021 13:30:01Could not another force be aiding lights escape?I didn't say anything about light escaping from anything.Quote from: Jolly2 on 03/02/2021 13:30:01In the end light is radiation.So what? It still has gravity.Quote from: Jolly2 on 03/02/2021 13:30:01 to get photons to radiate from, as light is a radiation, the weak force must play a role in the decay process.No it doesn't, because nothing has to decay in order to produce photons.
Quote from: Jolly2 on 03/02/2021 13:30:01Could it not be the weak force that allows light to escape the gravity?Escape? Again, when was my argument about light escaping anything?
So it's a laW?
Not if something else instead of gravity, another force is causing the movement by light that you see.
If the sun and light both pull each other surely light wouldn't escape.
This statement "must also be pulled by an equal force in the opposite direction " is a push not a pull, from the light
What is space? Should I start a new thread?
Quote from: Jolly2 on 03/02/2021 21:15:52So it's a laW?Conservation of momentum is a law, yes.
Quote from: Jolly2 on 03/02/2021 21:15:52Not if something else instead of gravity, another force is causing the movement by light that you see.Then why does it behave exactly as general relativity predicts that it should under the force of gravity, specifically?
Quote from: Jolly2 on 03/02/2021 21:15:52If the sun and light both pull each other surely light wouldn't escape.That doesn't make any sense. Rockets are pulled by gravity but they can still go into orbit.
Quote from: Jolly2 on 03/02/2021 21:15:52This statement "must also be pulled by an equal force in the opposite direction " is a push not a pull, from the lightIf the Sun was pushed instead of pulled, then conservation of momentum would be violated.
Quote from: Jolly2 on 03/02/2021 21:18:31What is space? Should I start a new thread?If you want to (unless you can related it back to this thread).
I was.suggeting the law of photnic gravity
Correlation does not mean causation
Looking at the sun billions of photons are radiated together, they could be interacting and it's the electromagnetic force that drives them more then gravity.
Because the booster create a greater push then the gravity
if the rocket was pulling not pushing it would never take off.
Conservation laws relate to energy loss
never suggested radiation from the sun was losing energy just that another process could explain what we see rather then gravity
Has anyone ever gone into space with a giant jar, scooped up some space sealed it so nothing could escape and brought it back to see if there was anything strange about the jars contence?
Quote from: Jolly2 on 05/02/2021 01:06:18I was.suggeting the law of photnic gravityConservation of momentum, along with gravitational lensing, lets us know that light has gravity (as explained before). The only way it couldn't have gravity would either be if gravitational lensing didn't exist (but we know it does), or if conservation of momentum is violated (which would go against Noether's theorem).
Quote from: Jolly2 on 05/02/2021 01:06:18Correlation does not mean causationSo Einstein got the numbers right purely coincidentally? I didn't realize you were a relativity denialist.Quote from: Jolly2 on 05/02/2021 01:06:18Looking at the sun billions of photons are radiated together, they could be interacting and it's the electromagnetic force that drives them more then gravity.Photons very rarely interact with each other. Flashlight beams pass through each other unimpeded.Regardless, we know from observation that gravity does affect them.
Quote from: Jolly2 on 05/02/2021 01:06:18Because the booster create a greater push then the gravityWhich is (more or less) why light can escape from objects with gravity (except for black holes): they expend energy traveling up against the gravitational potential, which results in gravitational redshifting of the light.
You dont need gravity for conservation of movement, light and suns just push each other it's simply impulse.
And gravational lensing is simply that light as it is effected by gravity doesn't relate to photons having a gravity.
are you seriously saying photons make/produce gravity?
Yet if you cross two laser beams you will.
Doesnt answer if photons are just influenced by gravity or if they produce gravity.
If they produced gravity they would influence each other, they would pull together, attract each other and then focus into a beam, that doesnt happen. As you pointed out they dont
Quote from: Jolly2 on 05/02/2021 20:37:57You dont need gravity for conservation of movement, light and suns just push each other it's simply impulse.They're not pushing each other. I think you are under the impression that I'm talking about light that is being emitted by the Sun, but I'm not. I'm talking about light from distant stars having their path deflected by the Sun's gravity. That is a pull, not a push.Quote from: Jolly2 on 05/02/2021 20:37:57And gravational lensing is simply that light as it is effected by gravity doesn't relate to photons having a gravity.Yes it does. If photons didn't have gravity, then that same beam of light being deflected by the Sun wouldn't be able to pull back on the Sun itself. That results in a violation of conservation of momentum.Quote from: Jolly2 on 05/02/2021 20:37:57are you seriously saying photons make/produce gravity?Yes, because conservation of momentum demands it.Quote from: Jolly2 on 05/02/2021 20:37:57Yet if you cross two laser beams you will.What lasers have you been looking at?Quote from: Jolly2 on 05/02/2021 20:37:57Doesnt answer if photons are just influenced by gravity or if they produce gravity.Yes it does. Anything that is influenced by gravity must also produce gravity. Otherwise, conservation of momentum is violated.Quote from: Jolly2 on 05/02/2021 20:37:57If they produced gravity they would influence each other, they would pull together, attract each other and then focus into a beam, that doesnt happen. As you pointed out they dontDo you have any idea of just how incredibly tiny the gravitational pull between two beams of light would be? Please do the math if you think it should be large enough to notice in everyday life.
conservation of momentum that has nothing to do with gravity
proves photons have gravity, proves they produce gravity.
Even though this gravity of the photon is soo infinitesimally small it wont cause them to attract each other
yet is somehow strong enough to pull back on a suns gravity, that's your position?
Quote from: Jolly2 on 06/02/2021 00:12:54conservation of momentum that has nothing to do with gravityYes it does. Gravity is a medium by which momentum can be transferred.
Quote from: Jolly2 on 06/02/2021 00:12:54proves photons have gravity, proves they produce gravity.It isn't just conservation of momentum. Gravitational lensing is the other part of the matter.
Quote from: Jolly2 on 06/02/2021 00:12:54Even though this gravity of the photon is soo infinitesimally small it wont cause them to attract each otherIt does cause them to attract each other. The attraction is just too small to notice yourself. A pair of dust particles have gravity but it's so weak that you won't see them pulled towards each other with your own eyes.
Quote from: Jolly2 on 06/02/2021 00:12:54yet is somehow strong enough to pull back on a suns gravity, that's your position?The force of gravity between two objects is the product of the mass of both objects. A photon has a very small mass, but the Sun has an enormous mass. So the gravitational attraction between a photon and the Sun is many, many orders of magnitude larger than the gravitational attraction between a pair of photons.
As the magnetic force would be doesnt mean anything.
That which propels photons out of a sun, the impulse that starts the journey has little to do with gravity if they had gravity it would hammer their action.
Conservation of momentum for a photon does not require gravity.
Which is simply gravities effect on a photon as it passes through curved space. Its gravitys effect on light, again nothing to do with light producing gravity.
You cant compare dust to photons
Sure but if photons produced gravity I doubt they would escape the sun at all.
We are just going round in circles I would like Halc opinion on this.
Implies the idea space is actually something, could space be dark matter?