Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: guest39538 on 05/07/2016 11:53:22
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If I was to emit a laser into space and bounce it around several mirrors creating angular paths of the beam and then add a medium of smoke,
From every point of the beam I receive Photons to my eyes that show the laser beam in differential time dimensions?
added- Has normal here is the question visual
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differential time dimensions
I don't know what this phrase means, but if you are asking whether light from different parts of the smoke originates at different times then yes. The individual photons cannot be at all points in the smoke at the same time.
This might seem confusing when you have a continuous beam, but remember the stream of light (photons) is similar to water from a hose, it is different water all the time as it flows.
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differential time dimensions
I don't know what this phrase means, but if you are asking whether light from different parts of the smoke originates at different times then yes. The individual photons cannot be at all points in the smoke at the same time.
This might seem confusing when you have a continuous beam, but remember the stream of light (photons) is similar to water from a hose, it is different water all the time as it flows.
I think you answered me!
Imagine you have a laser directly above your head (like a head lamp)
It is presently switched off.
In a direct line away from you is several markers.
0..1ly..2ly..3ly..4ly..5ly
You set your stop watch for a synchronised start when the laser is turned on.
You now turn on the laser, it takes 1ly to reach the first marker point. Your stop watch shows exactly 1ly because of the constant speed of the laser.
Now the tip of the laser reaches its destination in one light year, so 1 light year ago the laser had not been turned on, so how do you see the tip of the laser as it were 1ly ago when the laser was switched off and the tip was not even there?
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Now the tip of the laser reaches its destination in one light year, so 1 light year ago the laser had not been turned on, so how do you see the tip of the laser as it were 1ly ago when the laser was switched off and the tip was not even there?
Because your eye is just as far away and it takes time for the light to reach your eye.
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Now the tip of the laser reaches its destination in one light year, so 1 light year ago the laser had not been turned on, so how do you see the tip of the laser as it were 1ly ago when the laser was switched off and the tip was not even there?
Because your eye is just as far away and it takes time for the light to reach your eye.
No that can't be the correct answer , I do not think you are understanding, how can you see the laser dot as it were 1ly year ago, when the laser dot did not exist 1ly ago because the laser was not switched on?
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A rocket ship leaves Earth at 12:am , to arrive at the Sun at 12:08pm, how can we see the rocket ship as it were 8 minutes ago, because it would still be on Earth?
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Now the tip of the laser reaches its destination in one light year, so 1 light year ago the laser had not been turned on, so how do you see the tip of the laser as it were 1ly ago when the laser was switched off and the tip was not even there?
Don't forget that the photons that you see reflected from the laser hitting the 1ly marker will take another year to get back to you, so you won't see anything for 2 years after you turn the laser on (and for 1 year after the laser has reached the 1ly marker). So after 2 years, you'll see the 1ly marker as it was when first illuminated 1 year previously (i.e. 1 year after you switched on the laser).
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Now the tip of the laser reaches its destination in one light year, so 1 light year ago the laser had not been turned on, so how do you see the tip of the laser as it were 1ly ago when the laser was switched off and the tip was not even there?
Don't forget that the photons that you see reflected from the laser hitting the 1ly marker will take another year to get back to you, so you won't see anything for 2 years after you turn the laser on (and for 1 year after the laser has reached the 1ly marker). So after 2 years, you'll see the 1ly marker as it was 1 year previously (i.e. 1 year after you switched on the laser).
see this added
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A rocket ship leaves Earth at 12:am , to arrive at the Sun at 12:08pm, how can we see the rocket ship as it were 8 minutes ago, because it would still be on Earth?
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Now the tip of the laser reaches its destination in one light year, so 1 light year ago the laser had not been turned on, so how do you see the tip of the laser as it were 1ly ago when the laser was switched off and the tip was not even there?
Don't forget that the photons that you see reflected from the laser hitting the 1ly marker will take another year to get back to you, so you won't see anything for 2 years after you turn the laser on (and for 1 year after the laser has reached the 1ly marker). So after 2 years, you'll see the 1ly marker as it was 1 year previously (i.e. 1 year after you switched on the laser).
see this added
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A rocket ship leaves Earth at 12:am , to arrive at the Sun at 12:08pm, how can we see the rocket ship as it were 8 minutes ago, because it would still be on Earth?
You literally are not making any sense whatsoever.
Why would we be seeing the rocket ship as it were when on earth? If we saw the rocket ship at the sun, it would be 12:16 here, not 12:08. We would be seeing the rocket ship as it were at 12:08, when it was at the sun. Are you just intentionally not understanding?
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Now the tip of the laser reaches its destination in one light year, so 1 light year ago the laser had not been turned on, so how do you see the tip of the laser as it were 1ly ago when the laser was switched off and the tip was not even there?
This also is making no sense. You are creating a false premise. You would be seeing the tip of the laser at the exact moment it was turned on, obviously. You are making it up as 1ly and 1ly, when it really is 1ly + minuscule time delay for photon to be generated. So you would be seeing the laser as it were directly after that minuscule time delay. Why is this so complicated?
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A rocket ship leaves Earth at 12:am , to arrive at the Sun at 12:08pm, how can we see the rocket ship as it were 8 minutes ago, because it would still be on Earth?
Your question does not make sense without the locations of the observers.
If a rocket arrives at the Sun at 12:08, nobody on Earth will see the rocket at the Sun until about 12:16.
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A rocket ship leaves Earth at 12:am , to arrive at the Sun at 12:08pm, how can we see the rocket ship as it were 8 minutes ago, because it would still be on Earth?
Your question does not make sense without the locations of the observers.
If a rocket arrives at the Sun at 12:08, nobody on Earth will see the rocket at the Sun until about 12:16.
Patience, patience, I keep telling myself. If anyone else is experiencing the same frustration as myself, get used to it. This will not be the last time you feel this way if you intend to attempt intelligent communication with Mr. Box. But I promise to keep trying............patience, patience. It's like watching paint dry or watching the grass grow, it takes a great deal of "patience" indeed.
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PFFFF, how hard can it be to understand,
Let me try again and try to keep my patience let alone ''you'' all keeping your patience.
A photon takes time to travel from A to B, so what you see is what you are seeing in its past, so when you look at the sun, you are seeing the sun where it was 8 minutes ago,
So if a journey takes 8 minutes for a rocket to reach the sun from the earth , the rocket left earth at 12am, when the rocket arrives at the sun we see it arrive at 12.08pm from the earth view. However it takes 8 minutes for the photon from the rocket to reach back to the earth to enter your eyes at 12:16.
However when you see the rocket ship arrive at exactly 12:08, you are seeing the rocket ship where it was a t 12am because at 12:08 on Earth a Photon reaches your eye that as travelled form 12am from the rocket.
ok now do you understand ?
Or a phton leaves the sun at 12am, it arives at 12.08 at earth the exact moment the rocket ship arrives at the sun 12.08
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PFFFF, how hard can it be to understand,
Let me try again and try to keep my patience let alone ''you'' all keeping your patience.
A photon takes time to travel from A to B, so what you see is what you are seeing in its past, so when you look at the sun, you are seeing the sun where it was 8 minutes ago,
So if a journey takes 8 minutes for a rocket to reach the sun from the earth , the rocket left earth at 12am, when the rocket arrives at the sun we see it arrive at 12.08pm from the earth view. However it takes 8 minutes for the photon from the rocket to reach back to the earth to enter your eyes at 12:16.
However when you see the rocket ship arrive at exactly 12:08, you are seeing the rocket ship where it was a t 12am because at 12:08 on Earth a Photon reaches your eye that as travelled form 12am from the rocket.
ok now do you understand ?
Or a phton leaves the sun at 12am, it arives at 12.08 at earth the exact moment the rocket ship arrives at the sun 12.08
You're ignoring everything that's been said to you. We get what you're saying. You're simply not listening to what we're saying.
However when you see the rocket ship arrive at exactly 12:08, you are seeing the rocket ship where it was a t 12am because at 12:08 on Earth a Photon reaches your eye that as travelled form 12am from the rocket.
ok now do you understand ?
What are you talking about? Like you already said, we wouldn't be seeing the rocket ship arrive at 12:08, we'd be seeing it arrive at 12;16 our time, and be seeing where it had been at 12:08. You're making up the facts in the question to keep it from having a real answer. But your entire premise is flawed, yet you refuse to comprehend this. We could not see the spaceship arrive at 12:08 and see where it was at 12 am, because at 12 am it was still on earth, and when it DOES arrive at 12:08 it would take 8 MORE minutes to arrive at our eyes. But I know you grasp this concept, because you included it in your post. But then you change the premise and ignore the facts.
You say "when we see the rocket ship arrive at 12:08". What are you basing this on? How are we seeing the rocket ship at all at 12:08? At 12:08 we'd be simply seeing photons that escaped the sun at 12 am, when there had been no rocket ship. We'd keep looking and looking and only see the rocket arrive finally at 12:16 our time.
You say "because at 12:08 on Earth a Photon reaches your eye that as travelled form 12am from the rocket" but that is fatally flawed. At 12:08 a photon reaches our eyes from the sun, that left the sun at 12 am, when no rocket ship was there. A photon that reflected off the rocket at 12am, as you say, would've hit our eyes almost instantaneously because it had still been on earth, in fact, we would've been staring at it leaving the launchpad. So you make up the scenario to twist the question into one impossible to answer, just so you can keep saying "you're not getting it". No, I get it just fine. You're ignoring fact and logic and refusing to see the tragic flaw of your arguments within your question. No, we're not seeing a photon at 12:08 from the rocket that left the rocket at 12 am. You can't say that as fact within your question, when that's not the facts at all. At 12:08 if we were looking at the rocket, we'd likely be seeing the rocket as it were at 12:04, when it was halfway to the sun. The photon would've reflected at 12:04 and taken 4 minutes to hit our eyes.
This is all quite simple. And you've shown that you understand the concept. Yet you intentionally twist the facts of your question anyway just to arrive at the answer you want it to have. But reality doesn't work that way. Cause Facts Matter.
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PFFFF, how hard can it be to understand,
Let me try again and try to keep my patience let alone ''you'' all keeping your patience.
A photon takes time to travel from A to B, so what you see is what you are seeing in its past, so when you look at the sun, you are seeing the sun where it was 8 minutes ago,
So if a journey takes 8 minutes for a rocket to reach the sun from the earth , the rocket left earth at 12am, when the rocket arrives at the sun we see it arrive at 12.08pm from the earth view. However it takes 8 minutes for the photon from the rocket to reach back to the earth to enter your eyes at 12:16.
However when you see the rocket ship arrive at exactly 12:08, you are seeing the rocket ship where it was a t 12am because at 12:08 on Earth a Photon reaches your eye that as travelled form 12am from the rocket.
ok now do you understand ?
Or a phton leaves the sun at 12am, it arives at 12.08 at earth the exact moment the rocket ship arrives at the sun 12.08
You're ignoring everything that's been said to you. We get what you're saying. You're simply not listening to what we're saying.
However when you see the rocket ship arrive at exactly 12:08, you are seeing the rocket ship where it was a t 12am because at 12:08 on Earth a Photon reaches your eye that as travelled form 12am from the rocket.
ok now do you understand ?
What are you talking about? Like you already said, we wouldn't be seeing the rocket ship arrive at 12:08, we'd be seeing it arrive at 12;16 our time, and be seeing where it had been at 12:08. You're making up the facts in the question to keep it from having a real answer. But your entire premise is flawed, yet you refuse to comprehend this. We could not see the spaceship arrive at 12:08 and see where it was at 12 am, because at 12 am it was still on earth, and when it DOES arrive at 12:08 it would take 8 MORE minutes to arrive at our eyes. But I know you grasp this concept, because you included it in your post. But then you change the premise and ignore the facts.
You say "when we see the rocket ship arrive at 12:08". What are you basing this on? How are we seeing the rocket ship at all at 12:08? At 12:08 we'd be simply seeing photons that escaped the sun at 12 am, when there had been no rocket ship. We'd keep looking and looking and only see the rocket arrive finally at 12:16 our time.
You say "because at 12:08 on Earth a Photon reaches your eye that as travelled form 12am from the rocket" but that is fatally flawed. At 12:08 a photon reaches our eyes from the sun, that left the sun at 12 am, when no rocket ship was there. A photon that reflected off the rocket at 12am, as you say, would've hit our eyes almost instantaneously because it had still been on earth, in fact, we would've been staring at it leaving the launchpad. So you make up the scenario to twist the question into one impossible to answer, just so you can keep saying "you're not getting it". No, I get it just fine. You're ignoring fact and logic and refusing to see the tragic flaw of your arguments within your question. No, we're not seeing a photon at 12:08 from the rocket that left the rocket at 12 am. You can't say that as fact within your question, when that's not the facts at all. At 12:08 if we were looking at the rocket, we'd likely be seeing the rocket as it were at 12:04, when it was halfway to the sun. The photon would've reflected at 12:04 and taken 4 minutes to hit our eyes.
This is all quite simple. And you've shown that you understand the concept. Yet you intentionally twist the facts of your question anyway just to arrive at the answer you want it to have. But reality doesn't work that way. Cause Facts Matter.
Quite clearly you are confused,
Departure 12am
Arrival 12:08pm
seen to arrive 12:08pm
NOT 12:16pm
You miss the point of evidence.
In the reference frame of the Earth and the synchronised clock on the rocket ship , we both see the rocket ship arriving at 12:08am.
No time difference.
I drew it for you to save your confusion.
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No, we would not see it arrive at 1208. We would know if arrived at 1208. We wouldn't see that event however until 1216.
But then I have a feeling you know this, and are just pushing the false narrative anyway.
Or do you care to explain how exactly we "see" the spaceship the moment it arrives when it would take the photons reflecting off the spaceship 8 minutes more to head towards us? How in box world do those photons arrive instantaneously? Please, Oh please dear box, explain this.
Some points you need to address :
1200 am spaceship is on earth. Photons hitting off of it are almost immediately seen by our eyes, and we see it on the launchpad.
1204,the spaceship is halfway to the sun. At 1208, 4 minutes later, we would see that event. That is what WE see, on earth, at 1208.
At 1208 the spaceship makes its full journey. Photons reflect off its new position at the sun. Those Photons now travel to earth, where our eyes receive them 8 minutes later, at 1216.
Everything I just stated is indisputable fact. You will need to have all these under consideration within your answer. I will await the results.
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No, we would not see it arrive at 1208. We would know if arrived at 1208. We wouldn't see that event however until 1216.
But then I have a feeling you know this, and are just pushing the false narrative anyway.
Or do you care to explain how exactly we "see" the spaceship the moment it arrives when it would take the photons reflecting off the spaceship 8 minutes more to head towards us? How in box world do those photons arrive instantaneously? Please, Oh please dear box, explain this.
Some points you need to address :
1200 am spaceship is on earth. Photons hitting off of it are almost immediately seen by our eyes, and we see it on the launchpad.
1204,the spaceship is halfway to the sun. At 1208, 4 minutes later, we would see that event. That is what WE see, on earth, at 1208.
At 1208 the spaceship makes its full journey. Photons reflect off its new position at the sun. Those Photons now travel to earth, where our eyes receive them 8 minutes later, at 1216.
Everything I just stated is indisputable fact. You will need to have all these under consideration within your answer. I will await the results.
You are wrong sir and can't do some very simple arithmetic.
At 12 it is on earth , at 12.08 we see it arrive, that is 8 minutes, if it we sore it arrive at 12.16 that would make the velocity half of c.
''No, we would not see it arrive at 1208. We would know if arrived at 1208.''
We know it arrived at 12.08 becaus eit did arrive at 12.08 and we could watch the entire journey,
it would have to leave earth at 11:52 to arrive at the sun at 12, and we would then see it arrive at 12 .
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No, we would not see it arrive at 1208. We would know if arrived at 1208. We wouldn't see that event however until 1216.
But then I have a feeling you know this, and are just pushing the false narrative anyway.
Or do you care to explain how exactly we "see" the spaceship the moment it arrives when it would take the photons reflecting off the spaceship 8 minutes more to head towards us? How in box world do those photons arrive instantaneously? Please, Oh please dear box, explain this.
Some points you need to address :
1200 am spaceship is on earth. Photons hitting off of it are almost immediately seen by our eyes, and we see it on the launchpad.
1204,the spaceship is halfway to the sun. At 1208, 4 minutes later, we would see that event. That is what WE see, on earth, at 1208.
At 1208 the spaceship makes its full journey. Photons reflect off its new position at the sun. Those Photons now travel to earth, where our eyes receive them 8 minutes later, at 1216.
Everything I just stated is indisputable fact. You will need to have all these under consideration within your answer. I will await the results.
I have had a re-think to this post, according to you, a rocket travelling at c could travel to the sun and back , and we would see it arriving at the sun the exact same time it had returned to earth.
departure time 12
arrival sun 12.08
round trip time 16 mins
arrival back at earth
12:16
+vx=c
-vx=c
seen arriving at the sun 12.16?????????????????????????????? NO,no,no seen arriving back on earth at 12.16
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As long as you insist on your idea that images/information travels instantly, rather than (as science knows), at the speed of light, you're never going to understand explanations based on real science. Nor will you convince anyone else of your view.
Your rocket travelling at c reaches the Sun in 8 minutes. So by an Earth clock that showed 12:00 at departure, the rocket would reach the Sun at 12:08. Simple.
But ... as light travels at c, the Earth observer wouldn't see the rocket reach the Sun until the image of that event (occurring at 12:08) reaches Earth at 12:16. Simple.
If the rocket could instantly turn around and come straight back to Earth, at c, it'd be coming back along with that image; it too would reach Earth at 12:16. Simple (but weird).
Half the "problem" with this is the idea of a rocket that can travel at c, but so be it. With the knowledge of how light travels, the timing all makes perfect sense.
... unless you are the one person on Earth who thinks information travels instantly.
(Note to others, I've had "discussions" with TheBox elsewhere, so have a good idea where he's coming from.)
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As long as you insist on your idea that images/information travels instantly, rather than (as science knows), at the speed of light, you're never going to understand explanations based on real science. Nor will you convince anyone else of your view.
Your rocket travelling at c reaches the Sun in 8 minutes. So by an Earth clock that showed 12:00 at departure, the rocket would reach the Sun at 12:08. Simple.
But ... as light travels at c, the Earth observer wouldn't see the rocket reach the Sun until the image of that event (occurring at 12:08) reaches Earth at 12:16. Simple.
If the rocket could instantly turn around and come straight back to Earth, at c, it'd be coming back along with that image; it too would reach Earth at 12:16. Simple (but weird).
Half the "problem" with this is the idea of a rocket that can travel at c, but so be it. With the knowledge of how light travels, the timing all makes perfect sense.
... unless you are the one person on Earth who thinks information travels instantly.
(Note to others, I've had "discussions" with TheBox elsewhere, so have a good idea where he's coming from.)
NO, X is equal to Y.
t
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............t
The maths says you are wrong.
''Your rocket travelling at c reaches the Sun in 8 minutes. So by an Earth clock that showed 12:00 at departure, the rocket would reach the Sun at 12:08. Simple.''
Yes exactly that, the rocket ship does not reach the sun at 12.16 and neither do we see arrive at 12.16, we see it arrive at 12.08 and that is the point you are missing that X is equal to Y.
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Yes exactly that, the rocket ship does not reach the sun at 12.16 and neither do we see arrive at 12.16, we see it arrive at 12.08 and that is the point you are missing that X is equal to Y.
Nobody says the rocket reaches the sun at 12:16.
The rocket reaches the Sun at 12:08. But we can't see that until 12:16.
Your x=y, and diagram, do not show the real situation. (Actually, it's not even clear what you're trying to show with them.)
The rocket takes 8 minutes to get to the Sun. Leaving at 12:00, it arrives at the Sun at 12:08, but nobody on Earth can see that yet. Light from that event starts to travel at 12:08. That light takes 8 minutes to travel to Earth. So it reaches Earth at 12:16. So utterly utterly simple.
The rocket reaches the Sun at 12:08, the Earth viewer sees it at 12:16. Simple.
For an Earth observer to actually see that 12:08 arrival, at 12:08, would require the light from that event to instantly travel to Earth from the Sun. That's your "unique" idea. i.e. the "0t" in your diagram in post #16 of this thread. That's not reality.
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Yes exactly that, the rocket ship does not reach the sun at 12.16 and neither do we see arrive at 12.16, we see it arrive at 12.08 and that is the point you are missing that X is equal to Y.
Nobody says the rocket reaches the sun at 12:16.
The rocket reaches the Sun at 12:08. But we can't see that until 12:16.
Your x=y, and diagram, do not show the real situation. (Actually, it's not even clear what you're trying to show with them.)
The rocket takes 8 minutes to get to the Sun. Leaving at 12:00, it arrives at the Sun at 12:08, but nobody on Earth can see that yet. Light from that event starts to travel at 12:08. That light takes 8 minutes to travel to Earth. So it reaches Earth at 12:16. So utterly utterly simple.
The rocket reaches the Sun at 12:08, the Earth viewer sees it at 12:16. Simple.
For an Earth observer to actually see that 12:08 arrival, at 12:08, would require the light from that event to instantly travel to Earth from the Sun. That's your "unique" idea. i.e. the "0t" in your diagram in post #16 of this thread. That's not reality.
You can not even see the basic contradiction you are making...
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''A solar flare is a sudden flash of brightness observed near the Sun's surface. It involves a very broad spectrum of emissions, requiring an energy release of typically 1 × 1020 joules of energy, but they can emit up to 1 × 1025 joules[1] (the latter is roughly the equivalent of 1 billion megatons of TNT, or over 400 times more energy than released from the impact of Comet Shoemaker–Levy 9 with Jupiter). Flares are often, but not always, accompanied by a coronal mass ejection.[2] The flare ejects clouds of electrons, ions, and atoms through the corona of the sun into space. These clouds typically reach Earth a day or two after the event.[3] The term is also used to refer to similar phenomena in other stars, where the term stellar flare applies.''
So is anybody saying we experience the event before we see the event?
Do people die before the explosion as even taken place?
A man stands 1 mile away from a big bomb, another man observes from a safe distance, the first man disintegrates before the observers eyes before the observer sees the explosion.
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''A solar flare is a sudden flash of brightness observed near the Sun's surface. It involves a very broad spectrum of emissions, requiring an energy release of typically 1 × 1020 joules of energy, but they can emit up to 1 × 1025 joules[1] (the latter is roughly the equivalent of 1 billion megatons of TNT, or over 400 times more energy than released from the impact of Comet Shoemaker–Levy 9 with Jupiter). Flares are often, but not always, accompanied by a coronal mass ejection.[2] The flare ejects clouds of electrons, ions, and atoms through the corona of the sun into space. These clouds typically reach Earth a day or two after the event.[3] The term is also used to refer to similar phenomena in other stars, where the term stellar flare applies.''
So is anybody saying we experience the event before we see the event?
Do people die before the explosion as even taken place?
A man stands 1 mile away from a big bomb, another man observes from a safe distance, the first man disintegrates before the observers eyes before the observer sees the explosion.
What you seem to find hard to understand is the idea that things take time to reach from one event to the next.
You do understand that, if I shoot you with a gun, I pull the trigger before the bullet hits you, right?
You do understand that, if a car leaves London heading for Dover, it gets to Dover later than it left London, right?
You do understand that, if a flare goes off on the sun, it takes a while for us to see it, right?
Your answers to previous questions lead people to believe that you think that a gun works instantaneously, that cars drive instantaneously, and that only light takes time to do something.
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MOD EDIT: This thread has become bogged down by the OPs inability to understand basic timekeeping.
Rather than descend to the level of "the big hand points to ....." this thread is locked.
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From every point of the beam I receive Photons to my eyes that show the laser beam in differential time dimensions?
If the photon is deflected by a dust particle, it will not arrive in the main beam.
You will see photons deflecetd from the beam arriving with different phases, because there has been a different time in flight from the time it left the laser beam.
But if you really want to see the time delay, you need to modulate the beam in some way, which lets you measure the time delay since the beam was emitted.
Modern cellphones do this - the signal from the base station is often reflected from multiple buildings in the city, and arrives at your cellphone with different delays. The phone measures these individual delays, and creates a filter to add them all up with different delays to extract the best overall signal from the jumbled signal it receives.
in differential time dimensions?
Yes, the photons arrive with different delays. But time is just one dimension.
Yes, the photons arrive from different directions. But space is just 3 dimensions (or simplified to 2 dimensions in the diagram).
PS: Congratulations Mr Box on the diagram in the OP - it is a rare privilege to see a diagram that bears some relationship to the accompanying text!