Naked Science Forum
On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: mad aetherist on 20/02/2019 21:57:25
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What wiki says re lightning........ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning
Electrification
The details of the charging process are still being studied by scientists, but there is general agreement on some of the basic concepts of thunderstorm electrification. The main charging area in a thunderstorm occurs in the central part of the storm where air is moving upward rapidly (updraft) and temperatures range from −15 to −25 °C (5 to −13 °F), see figure to the right (figure not shown here).
At that place, the combination of temperature and rapid upward air movement produces a mixture of super-cooled cloud droplets (small water droplets below freezing), small ice crystals, and graupel (soft hail). The updraft carries the super-cooled cloud droplets and very small ice crystals upward. At the same time, the graupel, which is considerably larger and denser, tends to fall or be suspended in the rising air.[1]
The differences in the movement of the precipitation cause collisions to occur. When the rising ice crystals collide with graupel, the ice crystals become positively charged and the graupel becomes negatively charged. See figure to the left (figure not shown here). The updraft carries the positively charged ice crystals upward toward the top of the storm cloud. The larger and denser graupel is either suspended in the middle of the thunderstorm cloud or falls toward the lower part of the storm.[1]
The result is that the upper part of the thunderstorm cloud becomes positively charged while the middle to lower part of the thunderstorm cloud becomes negatively charged.[1] (figure not shown here)
The upward motions within the storm and winds at higher levels in the atmosphere tend to cause the small ice crystals (and positive charge) in the upper part of the thunderstorm cloud to spread out horizontally some distance from thunderstorm cloud base. This part of the thunderstorm cloud is called the anvil. While this is the main charging process for the thunderstorm cloud, some of these charges can be redistributed by air movements within the storm (updrafts and downdrafts). In addition, there is a small but important positive charge buildup near the bottom of the thunderstorm cloud due to the precipitation and warmer temperatures.[1]
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At that place, the combination of temperature and rapid upward air movement produces a mixture of super-cooled cloud droplets (small water droplets below freezing), small ice crystals, and graupel (soft hail). The updraft carries the super-cooled cloud droplets and very small ice crystals upward. At the same time, the graupel, which is considerably larger and denser, tends to fall or be suspended in the rising air.[1]
The differences in the movement of the precipitation cause collisions to occur. When the rising ice crystals collide with graupel, the ice crystals become positively charged and the graupel becomes negatively charged. See figure to the left (figure not shown here). The updraft carries the positively charged ice crystals upward toward the top of the storm cloud. The larger and denser graupel is either suspended in the middle of the thunderstorm cloud or falls toward the lower part of the storm.[1]
The result is that the upper part of the thunderstorm cloud becomes positively charged while the middle to lower part of the thunderstorm cloud becomes negatively charged.[1] (figure not shown here)
Rising small ice crystals become positively charge whilst falling graupel (large soft hail) becomes negatively charged.
That stinx. How-why would electrons jump from rising ice to falling hail? Or do protons jump, ie the other way? Why would rising ice be hard whilst falling ice not be hard? Why would hardness etc matter? It all stinx.
The first problem for the science mafia is that ice is usually charge neutral (ok), & water is charge neutral (no it aint). Hencely the mafia have to invent a way for electrons to jump. EZ water doesnt need any jumping trickery. All small water vapour droplets are in the form of EZ water (exclusion zone water)(H3O2-), & have negative charge. Some protons are ejected during the formation of the EZ water, probly during vaporization from a body of bulk water (H2O), the protons going into the air or into the remaining bulk water, making that air & bulk water positively charged.
EZ water consists of thousands of layers forming an "infinite" hexagonal planar lattice, the layers held together due to electrostatic forces.
Larger droplets have some ordinary bulk water (H2O) inside the outer layer of EZ water, & the inner bulk water will have a slight positive charge, but the overall charge will be negative.
Anyhow, negatively charged vapor droplets in clouds etc are attracted to each other due to like-likes-like charge distribution, because free protons are attracted to the droplets & sit in the air near the droplets (& in the air between droplets).
When droplets freeze & become ice the EZ water changes to ice, & this involves the regaining of protons. Ice is naturally charge neutral. In fact bulk water (non hexagonal) cant form ice, only (hexagonal) EZ water can make (hexagonal) ice. Dr Gerald Pollack explains all of this stuff.
So we have two ways that charge is divided.
During the making of EZ water vapor. The negative droplets in clouds are surrounded by protons from the air.
During the making of ice. The freezing EZ water in clouds sucks protons from surrounding air, leaving the air with negative charge (if the air had had time to allow protons to leak away prior to that freezing).
So, now that we have explained two real causes of micro-division of charge in clouds, we are now in a position to find the real cause of how charge is concentrated in & near clouds (macro-division)(giving lightning). And we will do this more simply & easily & realistically than the panicking mafia's desperate invocation of silly collisions & friction etc.
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Rising small ice crystals become positively charge whilst falling graupel (large soft hail) becomes negatively charged.
That stinx. How-why would electrons jump from rising ice to falling hail? Or do protons jump, ie the other way? Why would rising ice be hard whilst falling ice not be hard? Why would hardness etc matter? It all stinx.
So, that's an argument based on your lack of understanding.
Did you know that this is a science site?
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Rising small ice crystals become positively charge whilst falling graupel (large soft hail) becomes negatively charged. That stinx. How-why would electrons jump from rising ice to falling hail? Or do protons jump, ie the other way? Why would rising ice be hard whilst falling ice not be hard? Why would hardness etc matter? It all stinx.
So, that's an argument based on your lack of understanding. Did you know that this is a science site?
Is there any science in the mafia scenario?
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Is there any science in the mafia scenario?
What do you mean?
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Is there any science in the mafia scenario?
What do you mean?
I wonder what is the extent of in-cloud measurements, & in-lab measurements, re all of the wiki theory, especially re small hard ice getting positive charge when colliding with big soft ice (graupel).
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I wonder what is the extent of in-cloud measurements, & in-lab measurement
Why waste time wondering when you can simply google it?
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/jpa-00245503/document
Anyway, EZwater can't be responsible for lightning, for the same reasons that unicorns can't be responsible for lightning.
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I wonder what is the extent of in-cloud measurements, & in-lab measurement
Why waste time wondering when you can simply google it?
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/jpa-00245503/document
Anyway, EZwater can't be responsible for lightning, for the same reasons that unicorns can't be responsible for lightning.
That cloud flythroo measured minus 1,200,000 volts near bottom of cloud & minus 580,000 volts near top. Wiki said there should be positive volts near top & negative near bottom. And the flythroo doesnt mention rising ice or falling graupel.
Unicorns were & are rhinoceros. I am sure that rhino's have been hit by lightning & hencely must have been at least partly responsible, & this would apply to both kinds, especially for ground to cloud (& less so for cloud to ground).
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Unicorns were & are rhinoceros.
No, because rhinos are real.
Did you look for other research on clouds?
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Unicorns were & are rhinoceros.
No, because rhinos are real.
Did you look for other research on clouds?
If rhinos are real then unicorns are real because unicorns are rhinos, however the more modern interpretation of the original has been happy to paint it as being some kind of horse with one horn.
Re research on clouds, i havnt spent much time on looking at this stage, but would appreciate any links to good papers.
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unicorns are rhinos,
In the real sense of rhinos being captured by virgins and shod with silver.
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unicorns are rhinos,
In the real sense of rhinos being captured by virgins and shod with silver.
That would be illegal nowadays, if u could find one.
Jumping ahead a little, dragons are/were african monitor lizards. The original split tongue was over the years drawn to look more like a flame, & the body was made bigger & disfigured, & voilá we have our modern dragon (& my mental picture of bored chemist). How do u see me?
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Lightning is primarily a proton thing, not an electron thing, ie it duznt involve electricity in the standard sense.
Protons are probly slower than electrons, & electrons are slower than c.
And all three are probly slower near mass.
And c is slower than the speed of em radiation (photaenos), which has (have) a speed of say 5c in air (in the near field anyhow). Probly more than 5c in vacuum. But slowed too by nearness of mass (just like c).
When talking of quasi-free-protons i should not forget that many free protons might be attached to a neutron (is that possible outside a nucleus?), in which case they (semi-free protons) might be slower (in lightning)(due to the extra mass & inertia) than non-attached protons.
These need their own name. I think quasi-semi-free protons, or qsfp's.
A protium ion has no neutron. A deuterium ion has one. A tritium ion has two.
We could call these qfp & qfpn & qfpnn.
Or praps qfp (where p means protium ion)(ie proton), & qfpd (d means deuterium ion), & qfpt (t means tritium ion).
I will make a decision when i write my paper, ie before i get my Nobel.
Besides being a mainly proton thing, lightning might include lots of free neutrons flowing along for the ride, but i guess that they wouldnt contribute much to the show, they might slow things down a bit. Anyhow deuterium exists in only about 1% of 1% of water molecules, hencely neutron lightning cant be important.
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How do u see me?
As a mythical Scandinavian creature that lives under bridges.
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When talking of quasi-free-protons i should not forget that many free protons might be attached to a neutron (is that possible outside a nucleus?)
A proton attached to a neutron is already a nucleus, regardless of whether there are electrons around it or not.
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How do u see me?
As a mythical Scandinavian creature that lives under bridges.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll
Hmmmm, praps i am a Troll -- i am solitary, live far away from humans, dont enter churches, am ugly, & turn to stone in strong sunlite, & i am very scared of lightning (hencely this thread). But am relatively harmless, unlike bored dragons.
I bet that with your moniker u get told to fork off a lot LOL.
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When talking of quasi-free-protons i should not forget that many free protons might be attached to a neutron (is that possible outside a nucleus?)
A proton attached to a neutron is already a nucleus, regardless of whether there are electrons around it or not.
But do we have protons attached to one or two neutrons (with no orbiting electron) floating around free or semi-free in the air or in water in clouds etc? And happily married enuff to survive a trip up'n'down lightning?
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But do we have protons attached to one or two neutrons (with no orbiting electron) floating around free or semi-free in the air or in water in clouds etc?
You might get such particles coming down as radiation from outer space (from solar wind, for example), but they would very quickly acquire electrons from the air. You might also get them very, very briefly during acid-base reactions where a proton/deuteron/triton is transferred from an acid molecule to a base molecule. They aren't going to be floating around in the air for any prolonged period of time, though.
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But do we have protons attached to one or two neutrons (with no orbiting electron) floating around free or semi-free in the air or in water in clouds etc?
You might get such particles coming down as radiation from outer space (from solar wind, for example), but they would very quickly acquire electrons from the air. You might also get them very, very briefly during acid-base reactions where a proton/deuteron/triton is transferred from an acid molecule to a base molecule. They aren't going to be floating around in the air for any prolonged period of time, though.
Pity. It would make lightning even more interesting. I will have to look for something else to Patent.
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How do u see me?
The image varies:
A few thousand lines of bad AI
A man in a straightjacket typing by holding a pencil in his mouth or, mainly
A troll.
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Jumping ahead a little, dragons are/were african monitor lizards.
Are you really unable to distinguish between
"Stories of dragons were inspired by misrepresentation of lizards" and
"Dragons are lizards"?
Lightning is primarily a proton thing, not an electron thing
We start off with the same number of each; they don't get destroyed.
Protons are roughly 1800 times more massive than electrons and the move correspondingly slower.
So protons can't sensibly dominate lightning.
Pity. It would make lightning even more interesting.
Fairy stories may make things more interesting, but they don't help science. So this site isn't the right place for them.