Naked Science Forum

On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: McQueen on 18/03/2024 04:40:12

Title: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: McQueen on 18/03/2024 04:40:12
               There seems to be a consensus, in the scientific community that regardless of the complexities involved in Standard Theory, that the mathematics used is so brilliant that, the theory cannot possibly, ever be wrong. This, in spite of many illogicalities and oversights.

      If one examines the properties of light it is apparent that light when it interacts with matter, follows the laws of reflection, when the term reflection is used it is not referring solely to light reflecting off a mirror but stating that light follows the property of reflection in general, as for instance if one is sitting in the garden and admiring the flowers, the incoming sunlight is reflected off the flowers in  keeping with the classical laws of reflection : angle of incidence = angle of reflection. The same goes for refraction.
 
           Following this line of thought, quantum mechanics does not see electrons as little ball bearings orbiting around the nucleus but as an electron cloud that has no definite location or velocity, in stead it is described as a spread out or smeared out wave function: So, Schr?dinger's equation provides the mathematical framework for understanding the electron cloud as a probabilistic distribution of electrons in an atom. It describes the behavior of electrons around an atomic nucleus as probabilistic wave-functions.

             The convention following from the use of Schrodinger?s wave-function to describe the electron cloud means that no scope for the reflection or refraction process is possible. When the electron cloud absorbs a photon, the subsequent emission of a photon doesn't necessarily obey the law of reflection (angle of incidence = angle of reflection.) The same applies to refraction because the process of absorption and emission involves transitions between quantum energy levels within the atom, which can occur in any direction. The emission of a photon from an excited state is generally isotropic or governed by other factors like the quantum mechanical properties of the atom and its environment. 

           In the context of our modern world with the immense strides that have been made in technology, is this aetiology good enough? Look at the smart phone in your hand. It is processing data at the rate of several gigabits per second. Which means that it is taking input data, processing that data and outputting the answer. Consider that the electron which is miniscule in size by comparison and the infinitesimal sub-atomic distances it has to traverse, should surely be able to oscillate at the rate of several hundreds of trillions of times per second. That this is indeed the case can be seen in the working of atomic clocks that depend on the oscillation of the fine structure valence electrons in the Caesium 130 atom. However, it should be noted that the oscillation of the fine structure electron in the Caesium atom does not result in the emission of photons of that frequency and rate, there is not enough energy in these photons to allow for emission, therefore the energy is transferred to the atom which enters a super metastable state.  Therefore, one of the age-old axioms of quantum mechanics that a single photon cannot possess a frequency but that the term frequency is only applied to the photon as a mathematical artifice to calculate its energy, is challenged and the contention is made that single photon frequency is real. It is apparent therefore, that when we speak of a photon possessing a frequency of 500THz, it means exactly that, the electron is absorbing and emitting photons at the rate of 500 trillion photons per second.

To be continued with your permission???..
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: alancalverd on 18/03/2024 08:49:31
It is apparent therefore, that when we speak of a photon possessing a frequency of 500THz, it means exactly that, the electron is absorbing and emitting photons at the rate of 500 trillion photons per second.

To be continued with your permission???..
Don't bother. If you start with an illogical premise, you will only confuse yourself further.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: McQueen on 18/03/2024 09:16:52
Don't bother. If you start with an illogical premise, you will only confuse yourself further.

           I presume you are referring to Feynman, and concluding that since Feynman has already given an explanation for reflection there is no need to go further: ″It′s a waste of time.″ in your words. Fine I have no problem with that. A look at Feynman′s explanation for the reflection of light might be illuminating. Pardon the pun:

                  Richard Feynman's ″arrow″ representation of reflection involves imagining an arrow representing the amplitude for a particle to go from one point to another. When considering reflection, Feynman proposed reversing the direction of time for the particle, effectively reversing the arrow. So, in Feynman's representation, reflection is visualized as reversing the direction of the arrow representing the particle's path.

                Fine, so Feynman′s explanation that you no doubt rightly, value so highly, involves light travelling backward through time in order for reflection to take place. No problem with that.  But to brazenly state, that this (or other equally bizarre) theory is right and cannot be questioned, might be questionable. Even though I have pointed out to you that these theories are old and dated and do not account for events happening really fast like absorption and emission of photons by electrons within the atom at rates of hundreds of trillions of absorptions and emissions per second. Further that the electron emits and absorbs at these rates is supported by empirical evidence in the form of the working of atomic clocks.   Please, take a second to consider what I am saying, there is no point in being overly hasty.  There is a possibility that you might discern some justice in what I am saying.
 


Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: paul cotter on 18/03/2024 09:27:20
"Could quantum theory be wrong?", yes of course it could be wrong, as could any theory. However quantum theory has been stunningly successful in explaining observations and making predictions and to debunk it would require a better theory and I see nothing on the horizon. Quantum theory is counterintuitive and baffling but that in itself does not make it wrong.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: alancalverd on 18/03/2024 10:56:27
   I presume you are referring to Feynman,
No, just to the nonsense you put forward in the sentence I quoted.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: McQueen on 18/03/2024 11:58:39
"Could quantum theory be wrong?", yes of course it could be wrong, as could any theory. However quantum theory has been stunningly successful in explaining observations and making predictions and to debunk it would require a better theory and I see nothing on the horizon. Quantum theory is counterintuitive and baffling but that in itself does not make it wrong.

           Thank you, for a meaningful answer!  I agree with you when you say that both quantum mechanics and relativity are such well-established and entrenched theories that it seems futile to criticise them even at a distance.

              If one could suspend belief for a moment and look at the theory that is proposed in this post, it might begin to make sense. Firstly, when one sees the brilliant manner in which mobile phones work, it is worthy of note that this performance is due to the terrific rate at which these phones are processing data, it is possible to watch movies seamlessly, to use GPS, to connect to practically any location in the world and so on. Speeds of up to 2.5 GHz are the norm, which nominally means that the phone can handle 2.5 billion instructions per second. Given that this is so, how can we be satisfied with the slow, lethargic, hit or miss, randomly directed absorption and emission process in place in quantum-mechanics? Also, the unrealistic scenario of where an incoming photon with a wave-length of 500 nm is supposed to be absorbed by an electron that is 5.6 billion times smaller than itself. How is it possible? This new theory I am proposing has the answer, photon to electron interaction, not the photon, to entire surface area of receptive substance, interaction.

             Now that the problem has been identified, how can it be remedied?  What steps need to be taken to get on the right track and be in line with our burgeoning technology? Here is what is suggested:
1)   Get rid of wave particle duality and replace it with virtual interactions which would in any case work much better than wave-particle duality.
2)   Get rid of the concept of the electron cloud within the atom and replace it with electron as tiny solid particles orbiting the nucleus.
3)   Get rid of the concept that the electron cannot approach the nucleus, it can. Look at this scenario, The electron is a charged particle with a charge of 1.6 x 10-19 C. So, suppose you have the scenario of a hydrogen atom with an electron at the n = 3 energy level and a photon of 700 nm wave length approaches. It is absorbed by the electron, the extra momentum sends the electron towards the nucleus, it reaches the nucleus, the two exactly equal and opposite  charges of the electron and proton cancel out, what is left is the extra energy and momentum acquired by the electron when it absorbed the photon. Here, it should be remembered that the electron is 2000 times smaller than the proton, the proton thus resembles a perfectly flat, perfectly smooth, perfectly solid surface of which it recoils according to classical laws of reflection or recoil. So the electron reflects of the nucleus at an angle of reflection equal to the angle of incidence. , when the electron reaches its new position at n = 3, it emits a 700 nm photon, the forces of recoil make it retrace it steps to its original position at n = 3, where it absorbs another identical photon to the one it had originally absorbed and repeats the process at the rate of hundreds of trillions of times per second. (1014 Hz).
4)   This would explain why the propagation of light is rectilinear.

 There is more, a lot more to this theory.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 18/03/2024 12:22:32
When the electron cloud absorbs a photon, the subsequent emission of a photon doesn't necessarily obey the law of reflection (angle of incidence = angle of reflection.) The same applies to refraction because the process of absorption and emission involves transitions between quantum energy levels within the atom, which can occur in any direction.
This is just a strawman argument since the absorption and emission of photons from electrons is not how refraction or reflection are explained.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 18/03/2024 12:37:02
Also, the unrealistic scenario of where an incoming photon with a wave-length of 500 nm is supposed to be absorbed by an electron that is 5.6 billion times smaller than itself. How is it possible?

So are you saying that you think a photon with the wavelength of 500 nm is 500 nm long or something?
I guess in your world that means that a photon in the radio wavelength region can be a meter in length or more??
Those would be some mighty big photons... :D
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Bored chemist on 18/03/2024 13:02:36
That this is indeed the case can be seen in the working of atomic clocks that depend on the oscillation of the fine structure valence electrons in the Caesium 130 atom
Caesium 130 barely exists.
Also, the unrealistic scenario of where an incoming photon with a wave-length of 500 nm is supposed to be absorbed by an electron that is 5.6 billion times smaller than itself. How is it possible? T
I have a portable radio which is able to receive long wave broadcasts with a  wavelength of 1500 metres or so.
What's the basis for your view that the size of the receiver is important?


It is apparent therefore, that when we speak of a photon possessing a frequency of 500THz, it means exactly that, the electron is absorbing and emitting photons at the rate of 500 trillion photons per second.
We are not.
A 500 THz photon carries about 3X 10^-22 J of energy.
If you delivered 5 X 10^ 14 of them per second that would be a power of 0.15 microwatts.
So, even a small number of electrons (say a million) doing that would represent a significant amount of power.
That's impossible.
It gets even more absurd if you do the same simplistic maths with visible light.
So it's clear that you do not understand what's going on.


Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 18/03/2024 13:33:48
There is more, a lot more to this theory.
And apparently you don't understand a bit of it.

Addressing the question in the title of the thread I think the answer is no.  The reason the answer is no is because quantum theory accurately predicts the outcome of various experiments.  It very well could be that there can be a better or more accurate theory that will replace quantum theory, but that does not mean quantum theory is wrong.  Newtonian gravitational theory is not wrong, it just does not cover all areas as well as General relativity.  Newtonian gravity will do just fine in trajectories of cannon balls or sending a space ship to land on the moon but it is not so good at determining the deflection of light due to a massive body for instance.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Zer0 on 18/03/2024 18:16:22
@McQueen

Nobody Understands it...
Nobody!

Still, Thanks for trying.
It's what Matters.
: )
Someday, We shall have the CheatCodes to this UnIverse!

ps - Nothing right or wrong about a Crescent Moon.
It's profound Beauty lies in it's Incompleteness.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: McQueen on 19/03/2024 01:44:45
So are you saying that you think a photon with the wavelength of 500 nm is 500 nm long or something?
I guess in your world that means that a photon in the radio wavelength region can be a meter in length or more??
Those would be some mighty big photons...

Look a bit closer, I had mentioned a frequency of 500 THz not a wavelength of 500 nm,
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: McQueen on 19/03/2024 01:47:19
It gets even more absurd if you do the same simplistic maths with visible light.
So it's clear that you do not understand what's going on.

I will leave it to others to explain to you the meaning of simplistic!
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 19/03/2024 11:11:56
There seems to be a consensus, in the scientific community that regardless of the complexities involved in Standard Theory, that the mathematics used is so brilliant that, the theory cannot possibly, ever be wrong. This, in spite of many illogicalities and oversights.
You might like to watch this video. Laypersons might not be aware of the problems discussed there.
Quantum Electrodynamics is rotten at the core
Quote
Quantum electrodynamics is considered the most accurate theory in the history of science.  This precision is all based on a single experimental value - the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron called the g-factor.  In this episode, I want to examine a paper by Oliver Consa who examines the very suspicious coincidences, errors, mathematical inconsistencies and renormalisation infinities which have been swept under the rug.

00:00 Introduction
01:54 Manhattan Project
03:46 Dirac's equation
04:38 Quantum Field Theory and Ignoring Infinities
05:57 Shelter Island Conference
07:43 Bethe's Lamb Shift
08:19 Schwinger factor
09:50 2nd Conference
12:08 Dyson's Unification
13:55 3rd Conference
15:40 Dyson points out divergence after normalisation
16:31 Doctoring theoretical value to match experiment
18:04 Coefficient rabbit hole
24:12 Muon's g-factor problem
25:14 Fudging the electron g-factor
26:24 Final remarks
I'd also like to read the other's comments or counter points on it.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 19/03/2024 11:16:48
There are some sequels.
Quantum Mechanics: A Theory in Search of an Interpretation
Quote
Quantum theory consists of a mathematical formalism together with a vast amount of information concerning how to apply that formalism to electrons, atoms, radiation, field, etc.  As an instrument for predicting the results of experiments, it is enormously successful.  However, despite this, it says little if anything about the electrons, and such that produce the results.  From its inception, it has been a theory in search of an interpretation.  In this episode, we will explore the origins of the quantum world as well as understand what the Copenhagen Interpretation is.

00:00 Introduction
00:31 Origin of the Quantum World
05:37 Copenhagen Interpration
08:07 Copenhagen High Principles
09:55 Problems with the Interpretation

3 Different Interpretations of Quantum Mechanics
Quote
The Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum Mechanics embraces the idea that there are no deterministic hidden variables that give rise to the probabilities of the quantum world.  This means that it is not generally possible to predict the outcome of any measurement with certainty and the there is no deeper reality hidden beneath quantum mechanics which could predict the outcome of each measurement with certainty. 

But there are other theories that embrace determinism and that seek out these hidden variables.

00:00 Introduction
00:52 Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen padadox
02:56 Bohm's variation of the paradox
05:06 Bell's Theorem
06:40 Many Worlds Interpretation
10:50 Stochastic Mechanics
11:59 Pilot-wave Theory
16:34 Fluid Experiments showing Pilot-wave
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 19/03/2024 11:20:31
Quote
In this episode, I want to examine a paper by Oliver Consa who examines the very suspicious coincidences, errors, mathematical inconsistencies and renormalisation infinities which have been swept under the rug.

https://physicsdetective.com/something-is-rotten-in-the-state-of-qed/
Quote
Consa tells us that Dyson said that the Heisenberg S-matrix could be used to calculate the electron?s g-factor, transforming it into the Dyson series. It was an infinite series of powers of alpha, where each coefficient could be calculated by solving a certain number of Feynman diagrams. Consa also tells us that enthusiasm returned to the American scientific community, but that some were critical. Like Paul Dirac, who said ?How then do they manage with these incorrect equations? These equations lead to infinities when one tries to solve them; these infinities ought not to be there?. And Robert Oppenheimer, who thought ?that this quantum electrodynamics of Schwinger and Feynman was just another misguided attempt to patch up old ideas with fancy mathematics?. Another critic was Enrico Fermi who said this: ?There are two ways of doing calculations in theoretical physics. One way, and this is the way I prefer, is to have a clear physical picture of the process you are calculating. The other way is to have a precise and self-consistent mathematical formalism. You have neither?. Well said Enrico.
Leading scientists often disagree with each other, but they are rarely mentioned in textbooks.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 19/03/2024 11:32:29
Look a bit closer, I had mentioned a frequency of 500 THz not a wavelength of 500 nm,
Really?  It seems that you don't remember what you wrote, let me refresh your memory:
Also, the unrealistic scenario of where an incoming photon with a wave-length of 500 nm is supposed to be absorbed by an electron that is 5.6 billion times smaller than itself.
If you look closely I think you will agree that you did in fact mention a 500 nm wave length....
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: McQueen on 19/03/2024 12:00:36
Quantum electrodynamics is considered the most accurate theory in the history of science.  This precision is all based on a single experimental value - the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron called the g-factor.  In this episode, I want to examine a paper by Oliver Consa who examines the very suspicious coincidences, errors, mathematical inconsistencies and renormalisation infinities which have been swept under the rug.

I remember reading about this the first time and thinking how remarkable it was that this problem of infinities could be so successfully dealt with, a precision of 1011 or something like that was quoted. When I investigated a little further I found that it had nothing to do with dealing with infinities and everything to do with the anomalous magnetic movement of the electron.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: McQueen on 19/03/2024 12:04:27
If you look closely I think you will agree that you did in fact mention a 500 nm wave length....

What difference does it make? 500 nm means a frequency of 600THz and 600 Thz means a wave-length of 500 nm, both of which are well within acceptable levels for atomic spectra from excite atoms. I don't see what you are getting at.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 19/03/2024 12:31:32
What difference does it make?
It is hard to have an honest discussion with someone who makes a statement and then denies they made that statement.
I don't see what you are getting at.
Here is what I am getting at.  You said:
Also, the unrealistic scenario of where an incoming photon with a wave-length of 500 nm is supposed to be absorbed by an electron that is 5.6 billion times smaller than itself. How is it possible?
You seemed to be saying a 500 nm photon is 'to big' to be absorbed by an electron, which is wrong and silly.  Perhaps I was mistaken about what you meant.  So is there some other reason you said, "How is this possible?"
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: alancalverd on 19/03/2024 14:56:00
"Absorbed by an electron" is one root of his many misconceptions.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: McQueen on 19/03/2024 15:56:09
You seemed to be saying a 500 nm photon is 'to big' to be absorbed by an electron, which is wrong and silly.  Perhaps I was mistaken about what you meant.  So is there some other reason you said, "How is this possible?"

Yes, 500 nm photon is nowhere near 5.6 billion times bigger, more like 168 million times bigger.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 19/03/2024 16:21:08
"Absorbed by an electron" is one root of his many misconceptions.


How does it supposed to be interpreted?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 19/03/2024 17:51:23
Yes, 500 nm photon is nowhere near 5.6 billion times bigger, more like 168 million times bigger.
There is no such thing as a photon having a size of 500 nm.  A photon with a wave length of 500 nm is not 500 nm long.  I'm not sure where you got that idea but you should discard it as soon as possible
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 20/03/2024 01:57:02
A photon with a wave length of 500 nm is not 500 nm long.
How does it supposed to be interpreted?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 20/03/2024 13:54:29
How does it supposed to be interpreted?
Photons have a frequency.  That frequency is the rate at which the magnetic and electric field of the photon oscillate from a maximum to a minimum and back to a maximum.  The higher the frequency the higher the energy carried by the photon.  A photon with a wave length of 500nm means the photon has a frequency of about 6 x 10^14 cycles per second.
Therefore this means when when a photon has traveled the distance of 500nm the magnetic and electric fields will have completed one cycle (such as a maximum to maximum).  So the wave length has absolutely nothing to do with the size or length of the photon, it only addresses the rate of the oscillating fields.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: McQueen on 21/03/2024 02:09:52
Yes, 500 nm photon is nowhere near 5.6 billion times bigger, more like 168 million times bigger.
There is no such thing as a photon having a size of 500 nm.  A photon with a wave length of 500 nm is not 500 nm long.  I'm not sure where you got that idea but you should discard it as soon as possible

Wavelength does seem to matter in certain situations, take the Faraday cage, but of course in Faraday's cage the currents just circulate on the skin of the metal, (i.e., they are offered an alternative pathway.). But in microwaves making the grid approximate the microwave size seems to work well. So I was just assuming that maybe  there was some correlation. Again, if  wave-length of a photon means the peak to peak measurement of the wave-form, couldn't it also be taken to mean the wave-length of the photon. Just asking?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 21/03/2024 04:20:41
That frequency is the rate at which the magnetic and electric field of the photon oscillate from a maximum to a minimum and back to a maximum.
FYI, circularly polarized light has a constant amplitude of electric field when propagating as a plane wave. Only the orientation rotates.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 21/03/2024 11:08:08
Wavelength does seem to matter in certain situations
Sure wave length / frequency matters, it just has nothing to do with the size of a photon.  The wave length is about the oscillating magnetic and electric fields of the photon it has nothing to do with the size or length of a photon.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 21/03/2024 11:10:11
FYI, circularly polarized light has a constant amplitude of electric field when propagating as a plane wave. Only the orientation rotates.
Which has nothing to do with this discussion, please don't bring in unrelated topics just to confuse yourself.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 21/03/2024 12:01:33
This, in spite of many illogicalities and oversights.
I get it, you don't like Quantum physics it's too weird.
Actually, you are in good company, most of the physicist who developed quantum mechanics didn't like it!  They kept scratcher their heads and saying this can't be right after each new discovery.  But if the theory matches the observations and makes accurate predictions then it must be explaining the phenomena correctly.
I think it is safe to say most physicist were 'kicking and screaming' as they were forced to accept the reality of quantum physics. 
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 21/03/2024 13:57:32
How does it supposed to be interpreted?
You asked this question and I answered it.  As typical you then jumped to a new subject without acknowledging the answer provided.  So I'm just curious did you accept the answer or reject it?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 24/03/2024 13:04:29
How does it supposed to be interpreted?
Photons have a frequency.  That frequency is the rate at which the magnetic and electric field of the photon oscillate from a maximum to a minimum and back to a maximum.  The higher the frequency the higher the energy carried by the photon.  A photon with a wave length of 500nm means the photon has a frequency of about 6 x 10^14 cycles per second.
Therefore this means when when a photon has traveled the distance of 500nm the magnetic and electric fields will have completed one cycle (such as a maximum to maximum).  So the wave length has absolutely nothing to do with the size or length of the photon, it only addresses the rate of the oscillating fields.
Light only travels at c through vacuum. In other media, it travels slower, and the wavelength reduced accordingly, with the same frequency. It does have something to do with length, as the name correctly suggests.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 24/03/2024 16:05:57
Light only travels at c through vacuum. In other media, it travels slower, and the wavelength reduced accordingly, with the same frequency. It does have something to do with length, as the name correctly suggests.
I contend that you are 100% wrong.   
Please supply any reputable source (not a youtube) that says the size of a photon has anything to do with the wave length of the photon.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 25/03/2024 09:21:59
Light only travels at c through vacuum. In other media, it travels slower, and the wavelength reduced accordingly, with the same frequency. It does have something to do with length, as the name correctly suggests.
I contend that you are 100% wrong.   
Please supply any reputable source (not a youtube) that says the size of a photon has anything to do with the wave length of the photon.
You can do the experiment yourself. Don't depend too much on the authority.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 25/03/2024 12:59:30
You can do the experiment yourself.
So you couldn't find any citations that support your idea that the frequency of a photon's magnetic and electric fields somehow dictate it's size.  Imagine my surprise.
Don't depend too much on the authority.
Don't worry yourself, I don't.  I suppose you don't go to the doctor when your sick because that would be appealing to authority? ;D ::)
Why do you enjoy being complete confused about everything scientific?
What I wrote about the nonexistent relationship between a photon size and it's wavelength is correct.  I realize that if you accepted that it would decrease your confusion and I guess that would make you unhappy or something.  Odd.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: alancalverd on 25/03/2024 15:50:24
A photon doesn't have a size. It is a mathematical concept: an infinitesimal massless blob travelling at speed c with no other properties than energy and momentum.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 27/03/2024 13:05:24
You can do the experiment yourself.
So you couldn't find any citations that support your idea that the frequency of a photon's magnetic and electric fields somehow dictate it's size.  Imagine my surprise.
Don't depend too much on the authority.
Don't worry yourself, I don't.  I suppose you don't go to the doctor when your sick because that would be appealing to authority? ;D ::)
Why do you enjoy being complete confused about everything scientific?
What I wrote about the nonexistent relationship between a photon size and it's wavelength is correct.  I realize that if you accepted that it would decrease your confusion and I guess that would make you unhappy or something.  Odd.
You can learn about metamaterials, and you'll find that their unit sizes depend on the wavelength of the light or electromagnetic wave.

If you imagine a photon of radio wave as a giant sized ball, then you will be confused by its implications. But experiments clearly show that wavelength of EM waves determines their size of influence in space. The difference is that you don't accept that size of influence to be called photon size.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 27/03/2024 13:06:44
A photon doesn't have a size. It is a mathematical concept: an infinitesimal massless blob travelling at speed c with no other properties than energy and momentum.
How does it interact with Faraday cages and metamaterials?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 27/03/2024 17:22:26
But experiments clearly show that wavelength of EM waves determines their size of influence in space.
Great.  Could you please provide a link to one of these experiments?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: McQueen on 28/03/2024 07:02:02
Great.  Could you please provide a link to one of these experiments?

                    No problem, just look at the door on any microwave oven, a fine grating or mesh is provided. Usually the mesh is much smaller than the microwave radiation that is being shielded or about 1mm in size is normal as compared to the 12 cm size microwave. The holes are made deliberately small to cover a wide range of side frequencies that might arise. The point is, while a pure metal plate will provide effective shielding and act as a Faraday Cage, it would be completely opaque and it would not be possible to look into the microwave oven to see what was cooking.
            Now look at Tesla's cage, it has comparatively huge spacing at least six inches or so:

https://images.app.goo.gl/NDAutVfakFiS7Wf58 (https://images.app.goo.gl/NDAutVfakFiS7Wf58)

               This must be due to the fact that the electric currents that are being shielded have huge wave-lengths and a 6 inch square (roughly) grating, is more than sufficient to shield form any possible significant combinations of frequencies and wave-lengths  that might arise. Size matters.

Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: alancalverd on 28/03/2024 10:17:01
wavelength of EM waves determines their size of influence in space.
No. Astronomers measure pretty much the entire spectrum from ULF (10 Hz or so) to GeV gamma radiation, all coming from umpteen billion light years away.   
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 28/03/2024 10:32:16
wavelength of EM waves determines their size of influence in space.
No. Astronomers measure pretty much the entire spectrum from ULF (10 Hz or so) to GeV gamma radiation, all coming from umpteen billion light years away.   
You should understand that I referred to transversal size, not length. Why microwave is trapped inside microwave oven, while visible light can escape through the metal mesh?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 28/03/2024 10:37:37
But experiments clearly show that wavelength of EM waves determines their size of influence in space.
Great.  Could you please provide a link to one of these experiments?

in video#7 we try to determine the size of photon, which is thought to be the quantum of light and all other forms of electromagnetic radiation, including microwave. We use two metal plates to create a single slit with adjustable width.
Determination of "photon size" is continued in video#8, using multiple slit







Spoiler: show
Spoiler alert :
From the experiments shown in this video, it is clear that photon model is not the best way to describe microwave interaction with electrically conductive materials. We need a better model based on following facts:
-   Microwave can still pass through even when its transmission path is almost entirely covered by metal sheet. (This is found when the metal sheet is restricted so it cannot produce opposing electrical oscillation that cancel out the transmitted wave.)
-   Microwave can be completely blocked even when there are much space uncovered by conductor. (This is found when there are adequate conductors to produce opposing electrical oscillation that cancel out the transmitted wave.)
-   Maximum transmission is achieved when the Gunn diode in the transmitter is aligned with the Schottky diode in the receiver, if there is no obstacle between them.


I have uploaded a new video trying to show the blocking mechanism of microwave by various arrangements of conducting material. Those arrangements are modified versions of microwave polarizer used in previous videos.


Spoiler: show
It shows that the same amount of conductor can have different effectiveness in blocking microwave. The result may seem counterintuitive, where an arrangement which have large gaps can be a more effective blocker than another arrangement which is more evenly spread, even though they have the same amount of conductor.
Due to its length, I'll upload my effort to explain the result in another videos, so stay tuned.

And my explanation for the result we get in previous video is shown here

Spoiler: show
The video explains that an obstruction blocks microwave propagation by generating reactive wave with reversed polarity to the original one. The original wave is canceled due to destructive interference.
The explanation is based on antenna theory.

Here is the supporting evidence for the explanation given in previous video about microwave blocking mechanism using a model of antenna as receiver and transmitter at once, and followed by superposition principle.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 28/03/2024 12:01:51
No problem, just look at the door on any microwave oven, a fine grating or mesh is provided. Usually the mesh is much smaller than the microwave radiation that is being shielded or about 1mm in size is normal as compared to the 12 cm size microwave.
You should understand that I referred to transversal size, not length. Why microwave is trapped inside microwave oven, while visible light can escape through the metal mesh?
These guys have no idea what they are talking about, that is, there ideas are made up in there own minds without evidence.  I just want anyone reading this to understand that these 2 posters are doing pseudoscience.
So that being said, let's see what you guys came up with.  The average wavelength of the EM radiation in a microwave is about 12 cm, so that would mean you guys think a photon is that long. 
You then conclude (correct me if I misinterpreted your statement) that the microwave photon is about 1 mm in diameter.
So then you guys think the size of the photon in this case is a cylinder 12cm x 1mm.  Correct?

When I asked, "Could you please provide a link to one of these experiments?", I was asking for real formal evidence, like a peer reviewed paper detailing the experiment, not some cheesy amateur Youtube videos, sorry for the confusion.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 28/03/2024 12:06:55
When asked about the size of photons, Gemini answered:
Quote
Photons, unlike most objects, don't have a well-defined size in the way a marble or a car does. They behave differently depending on the situation. Here's how we think about it:

Point-like: In some interactions, photons seem to act like point-like particles. They can be absorbed or emitted entirely by tiny targets, even smaller than an atom's nucleus.
Wavelength-related size: From a wave perspective, a photon's "size" is related to its wavelength. The wavelength is the distance between peaks in the wave. We can talk about a photon's "effective size" based on its wavelength, but it's not a physical size in the same way a marble is big.
It's important to note that photons are force carriers, not little balls of light. They carry energy and momentum, but their existence is more about the electromagnetic field than a physical object.

Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 28/03/2024 12:12:42
It gives some sources:
Quote
Here are a couple of research papers you can look into regarding the size and shape of a photon:

Electromagnetic fields, size, and copy of a single photon arXiv: arxiv.org:1604.03869 explores the concept of a photon's shape depending on its energy. It delves into how a photon might resemble a thin stick or a plate based on specific conditions.
The Size and Shape of a Single Photon Scientific Research Publishing: www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=10928 discusses the concept of effective size based on wavelength and the limitations of assigning a strict size to a photon.
Searching further in the journal, I found this.
https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation.aspx?paperid=109230
Quote
When we talk about a photon, we specify a frequency/wavelength and direction and position, but its physical size is typically not mentioned. It is the atom or molecule that sets the cross-section for a photon interaction not the photon itself. Given this gap in the physics of photons, we have explored here the question of the size/width of a photon perpendicular to its direction of propagation?defined as the size of a hole that will pass the photon with at least 90% probability.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 28/03/2024 12:26:00
When asked about the size of photons, Gemini answered:
I have no idea who Gemini is, I was wondering what you think.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: McQueen on 28/03/2024 12:32:15
Here are a couple of research papers you can look into regarding the size and shape of a photon:

Electromagnetic fields, size, and copy of a single photon arXiv: arxiv.org:1604.03869 explores the concept of a photon's shape depending on its energy. It delves into how a photon might resemble a thin stick or a plate based on specific conditions.
The Size and Shape of a Single Photon Scientific Research Publishing: www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=10928 discusses the concept of effective size based on wavelength and the limitations of assigning a strict size to a photon.

                    Thank you, it is always nice to have new credible sources to look at. That having been said, ham radio enthusiasts and of course TV enthusiasts with their Yag antennas are very familiar with the concept of radio wave-length to antenna ratios.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 28/03/2024 13:43:46
Electromagnetic fields, size, and copy of a single photon arXiv: arxiv.org:1604.03869 explores the concept of a photon's shape depending on its energy. It delves into how a photon might resemble a thin stick or a plate based on specific conditions.
Here's the abstraction.
Quote
Photons are almost involved in each field of science and daily life of everyone. However, there are still some fundamental and puzzling questions such as what a photon is.The expressions of electromagnetic fields of a photon are here proposed. On the basis of the present expressions, we calculate the energy, momentum, and spin angular momentum of a photon, derive the relations between the photon size and wavelength, and reveal the differences between a photon and its copy. The results show that the present expressions properly describe the particle characteristics of a photon; the length of a photon is half of the wavelength, and the radius is proportional to square root of the wavelength; a photon can ionize a hydrogen atom at the ground state only if its radius is less than the Bohr radius; a photon and its copy have the phase difference of {\pi} and constitute a phase-entangled photon pair; the phase-entangled n-photon train results from the sequential stimulated emissions and belongs to the Fock state. A laser beam is an ensemble of the n-photon trains and belongs to the coherent state. The threshold power of a laser is equal to the power of the n-photon train. These provide a bridge between the wave theory of light and quantum optics and will further advance research and application of the related fields.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1604.03869
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 28/03/2024 14:14:25
How big is a visible photon?
Quote
This video is actually not about photon size but about coherence length. In this video I discuss the behavior of electromagnetic radiation, especially the aspect of interference. The experiment shows that there is no such thing as individual photons in EM radiation. The photon only exists as an energy exchange between radiation and matter.

0:00 General Intro
0:47 What do others say?
1:21 About wavelength and size
2:10 Interference in light
3:08 Electromagnetic waves and detection
5:25 Things that make you go Hmmm...
7:36 New experiment and setup
10:23 Calculation of single photon level (boring)
11:59 Result of the new experiment
12:41 Discussion of the result
16:29 About "shot noise"
17:16 EM field strength and probability of detection
19:18 So how big is it then?
20:02 Deleted scene

At 3:08 the Electric and Magnetic field components have been swapped accidentally.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: alancalverd on 28/03/2024 15:15:16
The experiment shows that there is no such thing as individual photons in EM radiation.
And yet we can count them!
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: alancalverd on 28/03/2024 15:20:48
Why microwave is trapped inside microwave oven, while visible light can escape through the metal mesh?
Wavelength.

I am sure some idiot will point out that mice can escape through the bars of an elephant's cage because they are smaller, but mammals cannot self-propagate in a vacuum because they are not electromagnetic radiation. Beware of false analogies. If it stinks, it is probably philosophy, not science.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: McQueen on 28/03/2024 15:46:18
On the basis of the present expressions, we calculate the energy, momentum, and spin angular momentum of a photon, derive the relations between the photon size and wavelength, and reveal the differences between a photon and its copy.
                On the basis of the present expressions, we calculate the energy, momentum, and spin angular momentum of a photon, derive the relations between the photon size and wavelength, and reveal the differences between a photon and its copy.

                As far as relativity is concerned, from the photon′s point of view, travelling at the speed of light, it is not even moving.  From the perspective of the photon itself, traveling at the speed of light, time dilation effects occur such that, from its frame of reference, it experiences no passage of time and no change in its own length. This means that, in a sense, it doesn't ″experience″ its own motion.
          But for observers in other frames of reference, it is traveling at c. From their viewpoint, the photon is indeed traveling at the speed of light (denoted by 'c' in physics), as it propagates through space. This is consistent with the principle that the speed of light in a vacuum is constant for all observers, regardless of their relative motion.

the length of a photon is half of the wavelength, and the radius is proportional to square root of the wavelength; a photon can ionize a hydrogen atom at the ground state only if its radius is less than the Bohr radius; a photon and its copy have the phase difference of {\pi} and constitute a phase-entangled photon pair;

                 This passage shows how, far into the ivory tower scenario mainstream quantum mechanics is.  They seem to have no conception of what they are saying or how it will resolve. Take a photon that is 0.12 m. that is the result of a microwave that possesses a frequency of 2.5GHz. How on earth is an atom or an electron supposed to accommodate this huge length?  Further, if it is claimed that it is not the electron that accommodates this 12 cm wave-length, what does? The answer I am sure according to some learned members would be to just run away from the problem and say that this is where, Maxwell′s equations take over and to be perfectly satisfied with this explanation.  When I raised the issue of first quantization, second quantization, normalization, re-normalisation, Fock States  etc.,  I was told in no uncertain terms that there was absolutely no need for it and that Maxwell′s equations explained everything in a conclusive manner. Obviously, Maxwell′s equations do not explain everything in a conclusive manner, for if they did there would be no need for quantum mechanics to introduce all these stages.  One has to wonder given the apathy in using such methods, why bother with first quantization, second quantization, normalisation, re-normalisation, fock states, annihilator operators, creator operators and so on, if they have no significance at all and don′t even enter into the picture. What is the reason they are introduced in the first place? Isn′t the answer, as I had suggested, to impose a particle theory on Maxwell′s equations? 

          It is an accepted practice of quantum mechanics, that rather than trying to start a new theory from scratch, to adopt a classical theme and impose quantum notions upon it by imitating some of its concepts. This is what has happened to a very large extent with electromagnetism. The question that has to be asked is, why deny it?  A question arising out of this one, is, does it work? Does it provide an alternative? If the answer to both these questions is negative, why insist on having these theories? Is it to prove that the theory works or that it doesn't or to state as has happened here that there are two theories one that works and one that doesn′t.

Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 28/03/2024 20:48:26
The experiment shows that there is no such thing as individual photons in EM radiation.
Well I guess Einstein's estate will have to return his Nobel prize then.  I mean who should we believe, every university that has a physics department or a random Youtube, wait!! I know we can ask a chatbot... ::)

I swear, I actually do think that you get some sort of enjoyment out of living in a state of perpetual confusion...
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 29/03/2024 13:01:09
The experiment shows that there is no such thing as individual photons in EM radiation.
And yet we can count them!
How do you count them?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 29/03/2024 13:03:00
Why microwave is trapped inside microwave oven, while visible light can escape through the metal mesh?
Wavelength.

I am sure some idiot will point out that mice can escape through the bars of an elephant's cage because they are smaller, but mammals cannot self-propagate in a vacuum because they are not electromagnetic radiation. Beware of false analogies. If it stinks, it is probably philosophy, not science.
Do you mean longer wavelength means larger effective size?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 29/03/2024 13:05:15
This means that, in a sense, it doesn't ″experience″ its own motion.
Do you mean it has no beginning nor end?
Does it start to have experience when it's propagating through glass?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 29/03/2024 13:18:51
Obviously, Maxwell′s equations do not explain everything in a conclusive manner, for if they did there would be no need for quantum mechanics to introduce all these stages. 
Agreed. If Maxwell equations in Heavyside's notation are examined, they don't seem to accommodate quantization of electric charge and mass. They don't even mention mass in the first place. These clearly show that they are incomplete as description of physical reality. Something needs to be added.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 29/03/2024 13:25:17
How do you count them?
With a Photomultiplier.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: alancalverd on 29/03/2024 13:39:17
Do you mean longer wavelength means larger effective size?
Beware of false analogies, like I said.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 29/03/2024 13:41:39
The question that has to be asked is, why deny it?  A question arising out of this one, is, does it work? Does it provide an alternative? If the answer to both these questions is negative, why insist on having these theories? Is it to prove that the theory works or that it doesn't or to state as has happened here that there are two theories one that works and one that doesn′t.
Theories are still kept as long as it's useful in making predictions. Even when we know it's not an accurate model of reality. Gemini explains.
Quote
Aristotle divided the universe into two distinct realms based on their material composition and movement:

Terrestrial Realm: This is our world, the Earth and everything on it.  According to Aristotle, terrestrial objects are composed of four elements: earth, water, air, and fire. These elements have intrinsic properties that cause their natural movements.  For example, earth and water tend to fall downwards, while air and fire rise upwards.  These objects are also subject to change and decay.

Celestial Realm: This is the realm beyond the Earth, encompassing the stars, planets, and the moon.  In contrast to the terrestrial realm, celestial objects are made of a fifth element, aether.  Aether is an unchangeable and perfect substance, unlike the four elements.  This difference in material explains why celestial objects move in a fundamentally different way.  They move in perfect circles at constant speeds, unlike the rectilinear (straight line) movements of terrestrial objects.  These motions are also considered eternal and unchanging.

Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 29/03/2024 13:43:13
Do you mean longer wavelength means larger effective size?
Beware of false analogies, like I said.
Is the effective size independent from wavelength?
In what context or situations that the answer has to change?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 29/03/2024 17:29:01
Well I guess Einstein's estate will have to return his Nobel prize then. 
Do you think that Nobel committee is infallible?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 29/03/2024 17:34:24
  I mean who should we believe, every university that has a physics department or a random Youtube, wait!! I know we can ask a chatbot...
It should depend on the evidence.
Quote
The simple version of the statement ''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'', is that ?It simply states that ignoring may not harm you as much as partial or incomplete knowledge may do?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Origin on 29/03/2024 18:28:28
It should depend on the evidence
Why do you think every university teaches that??  It's because of the evidence supports it. 
All you seem to do is criticize theories and concepts that you don't understand.  It's too bad you came into this thread disrupted it, I guess this goes on ignore like your other threads...
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 29/03/2024 20:35:27
It should depend on the evidence
Why do you think every university teaches that??  It's because of the evidence supports it. 
All you seem to do is criticize theories and concepts that you don't understand.  It's too bad you came into this thread disrupted it, I guess this goes on ignore like your other threads...
New evidence keep coming. What became a consensus in the past may change in the future, when new evidence against it get harder to ignore.
Perhaps they think that currently used explanations are good enough for known evidence, so they don't spend enough resources in basic research to look for new evidence that would need a better explanation.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: alancalverd on 30/03/2024 23:21:37
How much is enough? You could direct all the money, material and intellect of the entire world to search for a flaw in the hypothesis that the hydrogen atom consists of one proton and one electron, but what benefit would accrue from doing so?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: alancalverd on 30/03/2024 23:31:02
If Maxwell equations in Heavyside's notation are examined, they don't seem to accommodate quantization of electric charge and mass. They don't even mention mass in the first place.
Probably because electromagnetic radiation has neither charge nor mass.
Quote
These clearly show that they are incomplete as description of physical reality.
Nor do they explain or describe an elephant. So what?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 31/03/2024 06:41:21
How much is enough? You could direct all the money, material and intellect of the entire world to search for a flaw in the hypothesis that the hydrogen atom consists of one proton and one electron, but what benefit would accrue from doing so?
Something larger than zero.
What's more interesting is to explain how protons and electrons interact to form diatomic molecules, instead of monoatomic, or polyatomic ones.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: alancalverd on 31/03/2024 10:01:55
It's pretty well explained in most chemistry textbooks, and sufficiently understood for the purposes of chemical engineering.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 02/04/2024 13:34:02
It's pretty well explained in most chemistry textbooks, and sufficiently understood for the purposes of chemical engineering.
Do you have an example?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: alancalverd on 02/04/2024 15:58:09
I have in front of me

Barrow: Physical Chemistry, McGraw Hill 1961
Heslop & Robinson: Inorganic Chemistry, Elsevier, 1962
Parkes & Mellor: Modern Inorganic Chemistry, Longmans, 1946

but then I'm very old!
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: paul cotter on 02/04/2024 21:10:24
Oh dear, four pages of unmitigated confusion. Not referring to Alan's or Origin's contributions- of course!!
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Kryptid on 02/04/2024 21:57:28
What's more interesting is to explain how protons and electrons interact to form diatomic molecules, instead of monoatomic, or polyatomic ones.

There's no mystery to that.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 06/04/2024 15:41:07
What's more interesting is to explain how protons and electrons interact to form diatomic molecules, instead of monoatomic, or polyatomic ones.

There's no mystery to that.
It seems like the mystery is in people's minds. How they think that there's no mystery in how invisible hydrogen atoms and molecules behave, while at the same time think that macroscopic double slit experiment contains the deepest mystery of physical reality.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: alancalverd on 06/04/2024 17:32:17
Which people? We know how atoms and molecules behave  - it's called chemistry. And we know how light behaves - physics. Sensible folk use mathematical models to predict the outcome of new experiments - science. And when the prediction turns out wrong, we modify the model.

Perhaps you are confusing philosophers with intelligent beings.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 06/04/2024 17:41:36
Which people? We know how atoms and molecules behave  - it's called chemistry. And we know how light behaves - physics. Sensible folk use mathematical models to predict the outcome of new experiments - science. And when the prediction turns out wrong, we modify the model.

Perhaps you are confusing philosophers with intelligent beings.
Many modern physicists like Feynman.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Kryptid on 06/04/2024 19:00:54
It seems like the mystery is in people's minds. How they think that there's no mystery in how invisible hydrogen atoms and molecules behave, while at the same time think that macroscopic double slit experiment contains the deepest mystery of physical reality.

We may not understand everything about the behavior of atoms and molecules, but we do understand those specific points I was responding to. We know why protons and electrons arrange themselves into diatomic molecules instead of single atoms or larger molecules given particular circumstances. For one, a pair of protons isn't going to randomly join together to form a single nucleus because the Coulomb barrier is too strong to overcome at common temperatures and pressures. So they remain separate. The number of nuclei dictates the total number of atoms. The electrons then arrange themselves in the lowest energy configuration around those nuclei.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 08/04/2024 13:17:00
We know why protons and electrons arrange themselves into diatomic molecules instead of single atoms or larger molecules given particular circumstances.
Can it be described in a single paragraph?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 08/04/2024 13:26:43
I asked Gemini, Is there any equation predicting that hydrogen will produce diatomic molecules?
Quote
No, there isn't a single equation in classical chemistry that predicts exactly how many atoms will bond together to form a molecule like H2.  However, there are fundamental principles and calculations in quantum mechanics that can explain why hydrogen forms a diatomic molecule (H2) and why some elements form single atoms or larger molecules.
Here's why a simple equation isn't enough:

Quantum mechanics rules the game: The behavior of electrons at the atomic level is governed by the principles of quantum mechanics. These principles describe the probabilistic nature of electrons occupying orbitals around the nucleus.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Kryptid on 08/04/2024 16:38:22
Can it be described in a single paragraph?

I did here:

For one, a pair of protons isn't going to randomly join together to form a single nucleus because the Coulomb barrier is too strong to overcome at common temperatures and pressures. So they remain separate. The number of nuclei dictates the total number of atoms. The electrons then arrange themselves in the lowest energy configuration around those nuclei.

The Pauli exclusion principle goes a long way towards telling you how those electrons will be arranged, as you can't have more than two electrons per orbital (electrons are fermions, so no two of them can have identical quantum numbers).
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: alancalverd on 08/04/2024 19:25:34
I asked Gemini, Is there any equation predicting that hydrogen will produce diatomic molecules?
Why not try asking a textbook, or a scientist?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: paul cotter on 08/04/2024 21:53:58
Ander&Sonnessa, principles of chemistry.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 12/04/2024 16:42:33
I asked Gemini, Is there any equation predicting that hydrogen will produce diatomic molecules?
Why not try asking a textbook, or a scientist?
Gemini has read various publicly available online sources, and can make conclusions accordingly. It answers specific questions almost immediately, including the follow up.

Textbooks typically don't answer specific questions.
Scientists typically don't answer specific questions from strangers.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 12/04/2024 16:48:27
Can it be described in a single paragraph?

I did here:

For one, a pair of protons isn't going to randomly join together to form a single nucleus because the Coulomb barrier is too strong to overcome at common temperatures and pressures. So they remain separate. The number of nuclei dictates the total number of atoms. The electrons then arrange themselves in the lowest energy configuration around those nuclei.

The Pauli exclusion principle goes a long way towards telling you how those electrons will be arranged, as you can't have more than two electrons per orbital (electrons are fermions, so no two of them can have identical quantum numbers).
Your first answer hasn't involved Pauli's principle, which means it hasn't correctly explain why hydrogen atoms automatically form diatomic molecules.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: alancalverd on 12/04/2024 20:50:50
Gemini has read various publicly available online sources, and can make conclusions accordingly. It answers specific questions almost immediatelyimmediately, including the follow up.
and has given you a couple of paragraphs of bullshit.

Quote
Textbooks typically don't answer specific questions.
Those we quoted answer the question you posed.

Quote
Scientists typically don't answer specific questions from strangers.
But that's how I make my living! Every new client begins as a stranger with a question, and in the fulness of time becomes a friend with an answer.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 14/04/2024 05:21:47
How atoms REALLY make molecules!
Quote
What is molecular orbital theory and how does it work? Are you confused about frontier orbitals, HOMO and LUMOs? These concepts and more are explained with examples and animations.
Textbooks have limitations related to its static and 2 dimensional properties. They also tend to oversimplify things.


Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: alancalverd on 14/04/2024 13:47:36
Not the textbooks I read as an undergraduate. I acquired a usefully explanatory and predictive knowledge of molecular orbitals and some of my contemporaries went on to design and synthesise useful molecules for a living. You can write an n-dimensional equation on a piece of paper with no problem.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 16/04/2024 09:23:50
Not the textbooks I read as an undergraduate. I acquired a usefully explanatory and predictive knowledge of molecular orbitals and some of my contemporaries went on to design and synthesise useful molecules for a living. You can write an n-dimensional equation on a piece of paper with no problem.
Which textbooks did you read?
How good are they compared to modern AI's design and synthesis?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: alancalverd on 16/04/2024 13:19:11
So far, the only relevant AI output you have quoted in this thread was wrong.

I listed some classic inorganic chemistry textbooks in reply #72. I also have in front of me Evans: Crystal Chemistry, Acheson: Heterocyclic Compounds, and Jaffe: Symmetry in Chemistry, all of which do exactly what your chatbot said was impossible. Sadly I can't find my first-year organic chemistry textbook but it certainly hinted at the quantum nature of stereochemistry in the hope that we'd learn enough physics to cope with the second year!
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: paul cotter on 16/04/2024 14:57:30
Cotton&Wilkinson, inorganic chemistry(a text that both BC and I have) is good on general chemistry.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: hamdani yusuf on 19/04/2024 11:30:26
So far, the only relevant AI output you have quoted in this thread was wrong.
Is this statement by Gemini wrong?
Quote
No, there isn't a single equation in classical chemistry that predicts exactly how many atoms will bond together to form a molecule like H2. 
What's the correct equation?
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: alancalverd on 19/04/2024 15:21:05
Schroedinger, with a dash of Pauli.
Title: Re: Could quantum mechanics be wrong?
Post by: Bored chemist on 20/04/2024 01:01:48
Is it just me?...
"Could quantum mechanics be wrong?"

https://xkcd.com/675/