Naked Science Forum
Life Sciences => Physiology & Medicine => Topic started by: John Chapman on 14/06/2009 20:32:06
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Just to make you all feel even worse I failed an altzeimers test last Friday. You've all been beaten by someone who has trouble remembering his own name, ha ha ha.
Actually, that's not very funny, really!
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Just to make you all feel even worse I failed an altzeimers test last Friday. You've all been beaten by someone who has trouble remembering his own name, ha ha ha.
Actually, that's not very funny, really!
John, I always get confused about the positivity and negativity of medical tests....I assume you are saying that when you say you failed the Alzheimer’s test...that this then means you DO have Alzheimer’s ??
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John? John? Hang on..... Here, that's me [???]
I see what you mean. Does failing an altzeimers test mean I 'do' or 'don't' have it. Well neither really but it's an indication that I may have.
Actually, I'm pretty sure I don't. And the test wasn't a physical one but a short cognitive test. Basically it was a list of about 10 questions designed to alert the GP to the need for further investigation. A pretty blunt instrument. What I can say is that I performed the test as badly as someone who has altzeimers might. Still a bit worrying, but not quite the same.
I went to see the doctor because my lifelong appalling memory has, over the past 18-24 months, become worse and I am becoming increasingly absent minded. It's got to the stage now where I don't trust myself to do certain things like make toast under the grill because if I turn my back on it it can be instantly forgotten.
Anyway, the doctor pulled out a printed list of questions. He explained that he was going to read an address to me, ask me some questions to distract me and then see if I could repeat the address. He told me the address, which was something like "123 First Avenue, Bournemouth", and asked me to repeat it back. He then asked the first question which was "How old are you?"
Funnily enough I always have trouble with this one! I told him that I thought I was probably 43 but would have to do the maths. So.... if I take the year I was born (1963) from the present year.... The problem then was that I wasn't entirely sure what year we are in. I was 80% sure it was 2009, but it might have been 2008. The problem then was that that made me 46, and I was convinced I was a few years younger. After doing the arithmetic a couple of times and failing to reach the age I thought I was (unless we are currently in 2006) the doctor intervened and told me I am 46. How embarrassing.
The second question was "What year are we in?" I joked that I thought we'd already covered that one with my tentative but uncertain stab at 2009 and the doctor smiled and wrote something down.
The next two questions were what years did the First and Second World Wars begin. Well my knowledge of modern history (or any history for that matter) has always been terrible so I told him I didn't know. He asked me to guess and I plumped for 2014 and 2045 respectively. It wasn't until I was back home I realised I had said 2014 instead of 1914. I hope he realised that was a slip of the tongue although, apparently, I got them wrong anyway!
He asked "Which monarch is on the throne?" and a couple of other questions that I've now forgotten but which I managed to answer without sounding like a senile geriatric and then he asked me to repeat the address. I just looked at him blankly and didn't have a clue.
So now I need you all to tell me that you would have performed no better than I did. Go on, admit it. I'm not the only bumbling idiot on this forum.
An IQ of 142 and I can't remember the landline phone number that I've had for the last 12 years. I used to know it!
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That all sounds pretty damning. But the reason why I don't think I have altzeimer's is that my memory has always been astonishingly bad. Now I know lots of people say this but with me there has always been something seriously wrong.
When I was in my early 20s my GP sent me for a course of treatment under a psychologist to try and treat my poor memory. For 3 months I met with him weekly to play memory games. Even then I was doing things like, having ridden my bike most of the way to my best friend's house (which I'd been to hundreds of times) I forgot where he lived and eventually had to turn round and go back home.
Once I found a note on my desk at work. It was an aide memoir regarding a client which, knowing my poor memory, I had apparently scribbled to myself before I went home so I could continue work the next morning where I had left off. The problem was I had no recollection of writing it and I can still remember the horror of seeing a note written to me, apparently in my handwriting, that I had never seen before!
So my feeling is that I am now at that age where memory starts to deteriorate. I work long hours, have an extremely stressful life and I am always tired. Each of these things will contribute to memory deterioration. So I think probably the recent worsening of my memory is symptomatic of a conspiracy of many factors pulling it down from an already extremely low starting point.
That's not to say that there isn't something wrong. But I think there has always been something wrong. And now, with the relentless march of time, stress and lack of sleep it's become more problematic than ever.
Well I'm in the right place! Can any of you biologists tell me if there could be a physical cause. A deficiency of some neurotransmitter, for instance.
Sorry for hijacking your thread, Neil. It just sort of happened by accident. Should this be transferred to another thread?
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I could create a new thread for you and split this topic from your above posts...if I could remember how to do it !! [;)]
FASCINATING posts John.....I'm sorry for your memory loss but am so relieved at your apparent lack of Alzheimer’s !
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If your memory problems started in your 20s John, and are as significant as you have described in your 40s, then the possibility of vascular dementia should be investigated. This is where tiny blood vessels in the brain are blocked causing minute-strokes (micro-infarcts). In most cases initially the changes in the brain are too small to show up on an MRI or arteriogram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_angiography) but can still cause significant cognitive dysfunction.
What should someone with symptoms of vascular dementia do?
The first step is to visit the GP as soon as possible. The earlier a diagnosis is made, the better the chance of treatment to slow the progression of the disease. The GP will need to find out about the person's symptoms, medical history, current health and lifestyle.
Unless another cause can be found for the symptoms, the doctor should refer the patient to a specialist for cognitive tests to assess their attention, planning and thinking speed. The specialist may carry out brain scans to help make a diagnosis. Investigations should also aim to identify conditions that may be contributing to the progression of vascular dementia. These conditions include high blood pressure, heart problems, diabetes and high cholesterol.
It is often helpful if a close friend or family member comes to the first GP appointment. They may be able to describe subtle changes that the patient themselves has not noticed.
If the patient has any family history of vascular dementia, or related conditions* (such as heart problems), they should mention this to the GP.
http://alzheimers.org.uk/factsheet/402
* family history of stroke at an early age (under 60), frequent severe headaches (migraine), blood clots (DVT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVT) & PE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulmonary_embolism)),
recurrent miscarriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurrent_miscarriage), amputations due to gangrene, a skin condition called livedo reticularis (http://www.dermnetnz.org/vascular/livedo-vascularis.html) (a.k.a "corned beef" skin).
You should have blood tests for vasculitis, and hypercoagulability (thrombophilia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrombophilia)).
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Ahhh, thats interesting RD. Not very reasuring but interesting all the same.
My GP has indeed sent me for those blood tests and said he will send me to a neurologist once the results come through. So that's what he's thinking. Unfortunately I missed the blood test because I forgot to go. It took three attempts to get to see the doctor in the first place! One day I'll look back on this and laugh dribble.
That was a good site you linked to. The Alzheimers Society. The description of vascular dementia rang worryingly true. I've got a feeling I might be seeing more of that site in the future.
Apparently symptoms include:
"epileptic seizures, periods of acute confusion, hallucinations (seeing things that do not exist), delusions (believing things that are not true), walking about and getting lost, physical or verbal aggression, restlessness and incontinence."
My wife says if I become incontinent she's kicking me out. Anyone want a lodger?
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I quite fancy New Zealand.
Any good at changing nappies/diapers Chem4Me?
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(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbestsmileys.com%2Fparanoid%2F2.gif&hash=b6c89a93fcdc26f07540419a36cc278d)
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I am sorry things are looking or seeming so grim...Please keep your hin upm and lets give these doctors a chance to see what exactly is happen in in your body..... educate yourself with any results and be really aggressive about learning all you can abou what is happening be your own advocate and really dig.. the more you understand the less helpless I think you will feel... that is if you are feeling confused and unable to do anything...I felt that way and am still learning more and more about what s happening with me...Please hang tough ....Smile I am an expert Diaper changer!
Please don't worry.....
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Thanks Karen
Also I've had a message from RD who said
Hypothyroidism may also be worth investigation: if the level of thyroid hormone in your blood is too low it can cause (reversible) cognitive dysfunction . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothyroidism#Less_common_symptoms
"Reversible". Now there's an attractive word. If it was human it would probably have big boobies and a pretty smile!
Thanks RD.
I'll keep the forum posted about what happens. If I have got some sort of dementia (and I still think I probably haven't) it would be interesting to have a single thread which acts as a diary to show deterioration. It might start with me being articulate and coherent and finish at some scary place that it's probably best not to think about yet.
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Yes, please do keep us all updated !..cos we luff our John Chapman !
Don't forget now !! [::)]
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Thanks Karen
Also I've had a message from RD who said
Hypothyroidism may also be worth investigation: if the level of thyroid hormone in your blood is too low it can cause (reversible) cognitive dysfunction . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothyroidism#Less_common_symptoms
"Reversible". Now there's an attractive word. If it was human it would probably have big boobies and a pretty smile!
Thanks RD.
I'll keep the forum posted about what happens. If I have got some sort of dementia (and I still think I probably haven't) it would be interesting to have a single thread which acts as a diary to show deterioration. It might start with me being articulate and coherent and finish at some scary place that it's probably best not to think about yet.
yes he is correct..I have Hypothyroidism/Hashimotos disease.... I had some really bad bouts with memory loss... before treatment.. Its still not perfect but its way better since I started treatment several years ago...
Good Luck John.
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The good thing is that you still remember me! [^]
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Ahhh, thats interesting RD. Not very reasuring but interesting all the same.
Vascular dementia is preferable to that caused by Alzheimer's , as the progress of the former can be slowed by treating the vasculopathic disease, e.g with anticoagulants, anti-hypertensives, cholesterol-lowering drugs, even bloodletting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycythemia) (not with leeches [:)]).
That was a good site you linked to. The Alzheimers Society. The description of vascular dementia rang worryingly true. I've got a feeling I might be seeing more of that site in the future.
Apparently symptoms [can*] include:
"epileptic seizures, periods of acute confusion, hallucinations (seeing things that do not exist), delusions (believing things that are not true), walking about and getting lost, physical or verbal aggression, restlessness and incontinence."
* people don't necessarily get the full set.
My wife says if I become incontinent she's kicking me out.
Dementia can cause hypersexuality: there's a reason for the missus to keep you [:)].
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The good thing is that you still remember me! [^]
You have worn permanant grooves in the surface of my vinyl.......
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Just to keep you up to date with this memory thing today I missed getting the results of my blood test for the second time because I forgot to keep the appointment. Honest. It seems like I’m making it up but it’s true. So things are much the same.
Yesterday I got lost (well, sort of) coming home from work! I was daydreaming and driving home on automatic pilot when I reached the roundabout outside my village. Now I negotiate this roundabout probably 30 times each week and suddenly I snapped out of my daydream and found myself looking at it. It was very familiar to me but I couldn’t place it in the right place on my journey. I sat there for 20 seconds or so searching for other landmarks that would tell me where I was. Then I started to run through the entire 15 mile journey in my head comparing each remembered roundabout with the one in front.
I hadn’t worked through more than about a quarter of the route when a car behind me honked and I realised I was holding up a long queue of traffic. So I panicked. I drove onto the roundabout and just kept going round and round. What else could I do? It is a small roundabout and I drive a big van and the cars behind me must have thought I was bonkers! After about another 40 or 50 seconds I recognised where I was but unfortunately that now wasn’t enough. I’d gone round so many times that I’d lost track of my orientation and it was no good knowing that I should have turned left. Which way was ‘left’ compared to the road I approached on. As I looked at each exit it was now a moving target and difficult to assimilate and I had to go round two times more before I could continue home. And I was only about 60 seconds from my house.
I’m now doing this regularly and it’s the 3rd or 4th time I’ve done it at exactly the same spot!
On this occasion I swear I could actually feel my braincells dying. Sort of like internal dandruff.
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Can a person with dementia still drive?
A diagnosis of dementia is not in itself necessarily a reason to stop driving. What matters, from both a legal and a practical point of view, is whether or not an individual is still able to drive safely.
For experienced drivers, driving may seem to be a largely automatic activity. In fact, driving is a complicated task that requires a split-second combination of complex thought processes and manual skills. To drive, a person needs to be able to:
* make sense of and respond to everything they see
* 'read the road'
* follow road signs
* anticipate and react quickly to the actions of other road users
* take appropriate action to avoid accidents
* remember where they are going.
Many people with dementia retain learned skills and are able to drive safely for some time after diagnosis. However, as dementia progresses it has serious effects on memory, perception and the ability to perform even simple tasks. People with dementia will, therefore, eventually lose the ability to drive. The stage at which this happens will be different for each person with dementia.
What if someone is unsure of their ability to drive?
If someone with a diagnosis of dementia is unsure of their ability to continue driving, they can take a driving assessment. To do this, they need to apply directly to an assessment centre, and pay a fee. For details of assessment centres, see 'Useful organisations' at the end of this sheet.
An assessment is not like a driving test. It is an overall assessment of the impact that the dementia is having on a person's driving performance and safety, and it makes some allowances for the bad habits that drivers get into.
Giving up driving
Many people with dementia choose to stop driving because they begin to find it stressful or they lose confidence. A person should consider stopping driving if:
* they feel less confident or more irritated when they drive
* they feel confused if there are roadworks, for example, on a familiar route
* they feel worried about having an accident.
A person who feels like this will need support and understanding from their carer and family members. They may feel bad about stopping driving if they are accustomed to being independent, or if they have always driven their partner or family around. However, it is better to travel safely on public transport than risk an accident in a car. If the person with dementia decides to stop driving, they should return their licence to the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) − see 'Useful organisations'.
Continuing to drive
If someone receives a diagnosis of dementia and wants to continue to drive, they must, by law, inform the DVLA. Notification of the diagnosis should be sent with the person's full name, address, date of birth and the driver number on the driving licence, if known, to the Drivers Medical Group (see 'Useful organisations').
The DVLA will send the person a questionnaire that seeks permission for the DVLA to obtain medical reports from the person's GP and/or specialists. Once the person returns this questionnaire, the DVLA will contact their consultant (or, if no consultant details are provided, their GP). Based on the medical information it receives, it will make a decision as to whether the person can continue to drive. The DVLA may also ask the person to take a driving assessment.
A person with a diagnosis of dementia would be breaking the law if they did not tell the DVLA about their diagnosis, and could be fined up to £1,000. If a person with dementia does not inform the DVLA about their diagnosis and continues to drive against advice from their doctor, the doctor may inform the DVLA if he or she feels that public safety or road safety would be at risk. Other people, such as family members, neighbours or police officers, may also contact the DVLA in writing and ask it to carry out a medical investigation if they are concerned about a person's fitness to drive.
A person with a diagnosis of dementia must also immediately inform their car insurance company. If they do not, their policy may become invalid. It is a criminal offence to drive without at least third party cover.
http://alzheimers.org.uk/factsheet/439
[the above is true for dementia whether it is caused by vascular disease or Alzheimers]
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I haven’t got dementia. I haven’t. I haven’t. I haven’t.
I haven’t.
I’ve just got a bad memory and I get a little confused at roundabouts. Just wait and see when I get the blood test results.
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Don't worry, I believe you*.
*I'll come pick you up at the airport since there are millions of roundabouts.
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I've mentioned this story before. (In fact I've just copied & pasted it from an earlier thread)
Shortly before my wife's Grandad died he spent a while completely doolally with dementia. He spent much of the time trapped in memories of previous times. Once he got distressed because he was convinced he was late for work. He was nearly 90 but thought he was in his 30s. At the time I was in my 30s.
A thought occurred to me at that point. How could I know that I wasn't the one who was 90 trapped in a memory of visiting my Grandad as a young man? Would I 'wake up' shortly to find that I was sitting in a geriatric home and I had just wet myself while fat nurses talked at me in loud and condescending tones? Any one of us could wake up in a moment to find our lives have been stolen and we are on the verge of death.
I like to spread a little cheer.
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I haven’t got dementia. I haven’t. I haven’t. I haven’t.
I haven’t.
I’ve just got a bad memory and I get a little confused at roundabouts. Just wait and see when I get the blood test results.
Just keep positive thoughts John.. any news on tests..?
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I think you can approach this from a practical point of view too:
What exactly do you need help in, and which things are the most important from this.
Forgeting dates, and appointments? - Put them in your mobile phone or PDA and have it notify you several times.
Forgeting the oven or the toaster on? - Program your mobile to ring, notify you some minutes later.
Forgeting the roundabout where you have to turn left? - Put a picture of it to the ceiling of your car, possibly form different angles, or memorise specifically in what things it is different from others.
We have left behind the dark middleages where a London taxi driver had to have double the size of Hippocampus then a normal human to remember all the street names. Nowdays you can program your GPS and get going without even having to know where the heck are you. So I really recommend getting a GPS, it will help you in all the orientation and getting lost issues.
You can figure out a practical solution for every important situation where you fell the need for it, as your intelligence is intact, its your memory, whats not working perfectly.
OK, I'm a psychologist, so I'll say this too: you can go again to cognitive therapy and learn or relearn the methods that will help you keep up with everything, new memory tricks, or exercising your memory.
Good luck, and remember, there is always a solution.
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I decided I couldn’t put it off any more and finally went back to see the doctor for the results of the blood tests. He said the tests were negative for three main things:
Hypothyroidism - which is a big raspberry for my wife who has quite unjustly accused me of having a goitre. Actually, she said I was a goitre.
Vascular dementia - which is a raspberry and a “nah nah na-nah nah” to RD
And something else, which I can’t remember!
Actually, jesting apart, I am very impressed by RD’s comments and grateful to him for telling me what may lay be around the corner. So, if it’s neither of those does that mean that dementia is now completely ruled out? The fact that I’ve had these memory problems all my adult life presumably rules out alzheimers? Or a brain tumour, come to that.
My GP is sending me to a neurologist. Any idea what he might be looking for?
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Hi Pwee
I’m sorry I didn’t respond to your encouraging words earlier.
Actually I’ve spent the whole of my life being told that I should
a) Be more organised
b) Pay attention more
c) Learn memory tricks like picture association
The main problem with all this is that I never know what it is I should have remembered, except in hindsight. Forgetting names and dates is bloody annoying (and it would be handy to learn some of these tricks) but it’s all the incidental, background noise of experiences that often hold the significant events. It is impossible to make a conscious effort to remember or catalogue everything.
I have found that using a timer or reminder can be counter productive because I soon start to depend on it and then I forget to set it!
I’ll tell you a story. I make biodiesel and in the Spring I built a ‘fuel polisher’. Basically I could take raw, dirty bio, pump it through this contraption and it would come out the other end ready for the fuel tank. I spent several weeks making this and I was quite excited when I switched it on for the first time. It worked wonderfully but VERY slowly. Excited, I went in doors and brought all the family out to show them. I knocked the guy next door and even phoned my friend to give him a running commentary. After 10 minutes it was obvious that it was going to take about another 30 minutes to fill the jerry can so I thought I’d fetch a cup of coffee.
Four hours later I realised that I’d got distracted making my cuppa and forgotten about the fuel. I went up to the garage and found it flooded with biodiesel. The lot had overflowed onto the floor. I lost about 100 quids worth and I was sick as a pig. The mess was so considerable that it took a week to clear up so I wasn’t able to make any fuel for the following week either. I got quite depressed about it. ‘But’, I joked, ‘at least I won’t do that again!’
After the second week my next batch of fuel was ready to polish and I switched on the machine and did exactly the same again, this time losing 60 litres on the floor. Another week of cleaning up.
The third time I decided that WHATEVER happens I would not leave the polisher to run unattended. So I switched it on and got busy doing some maintenance on the processor. After a while I stepped backwards and my foot sploshed in a puddle of biodiesel on the floor. I had become so engrossed I’d forgotten about the fuel running and again let it overflow, though only by about 10 or 20 litres this time.
So for the next batch I bought a kitchen timer off ebay. Every 20 minutes it would remind me to go out to the garage and check the jerry can. I kept it clipped to my lapel to ensure I didn’t forget about it and wander off. Then for some reason it didn’t go off. It seems I probably forgot to re-set it. More fuel on the floor. By now I felt so useless that every time I thought about it was all I could do not to burst into tears.
Eventually I rigged up a large tank with a float switch that would automatically switch the pump off once full. But until that was set up it was decided that only my wife was allowed to run off fuel. It seems there was nothing I could do to stop me from forgetting it.
I would value any tips you have to help me remember things. But I am still hoping to find some curable physical cause. Some chemical deficiency that can be corrected with a tablet would be nice. Who knows, I might find that I am a genius if I wasn’t hampered by a defective memory!
What were these so-called designer smart drugs that seemed to be in the news a few years back? They were apparently all the rage with the high flying and creative types. Any idea?
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… does that mean that dementia is now completely ruled out?
It is not possible to definitively say a person does not have vascular dementia unless their brain has been dissected, (necropsy).
Microvascular disease affecting the smallest blood vessels in the brain, (each thinner than a hair), does not usually show up on MRI or angiogram: it is below the limit of resolution of these imaging techniques in ¾ to 2/3 of cases, (later diagnosed by brain biopsy or necropsy).
He said the tests were negative for … Vascular dementia - which is a raspberry and a “nah nah na-nah nah” to RD
I’m not rooting for a vascular dementia diagnosis John. I’m just trying to give accurate and constructive information, e.g. If your cognitive dysfunction was due to vascular disease then you could take steps to treat it with medication, (type of medication depending on the cause of the vascular disease).
The fact that I’ve had these memory problems all my adult life
If you have had microvascular disease affecting your brain for the past 20 years it would probably not be confined there. It may also have shown up in rashes or ischemic markings on your skin, or recurring ulcers on mucous membranes in your mouth, nose or GI tract. Having a biopsy of a surrogate site in skin or mucous membrane would be preferable to a brain biopsy, which you need like a hole in the head. [:)]
PS
I note you work with chemicals. Chemical exposure, (and of course prescribed or "street" drugs), can cause cognitive impairment …
Organic brain syndrome can also have a chronic cause with chronic exposure to a toxin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_brain_syndrome
Organophosphate is a widespread source of neurotoxin ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organophosphate_poisoning
[chemical exposure would have to correspond with memory deficits to be a possible explanation]
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Hi John!
It seams that I have oversimplified your problem (or the "solution" for it). I apologise for that.
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Hi Pwee
It seems that I have oversimplified your problem (or the "solution" for it). I apologise for that.
Not at all. I am extremely grateful for the time you spent with your previous reply and I didn't mean to sound unappreciative or dismissive. Many thanks.
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Thanks RD
You may have hit on something there.
I note you work with chemicals. Chemical exposure, (and of course prescribed or "street" drugs), can cause cognitive impairment …
Drugs are not a problem but I spend quite a bit of time inhaling methanol fumes, although I try reduce this where possible. My poor memory has got worse during the last 18 months or so which corresponds roughly to how long I have been playing around with biodiesel, the source of my methanol fumes. Methanol is a neurotoxin. According to Wikipedia:
“Methanol is toxic. If ingested, as little as 10ml can cause permanent blindness by destruction of the optic nerve. The usual fatal dose is 100 – 125 ml (4 fl oz).
...It enters the body by ingestion, inhalation or absorption through the skin and can be fatal due to it’s CNS depressant properties.”
Freshly made raw bio has about 4% free methanol in it which is removed by warming up the bio and bubbling air through it to evaporate it off – into my garage! I do it overnight to avoid breathing it in but typically I’ll bubble off about 4 litres of methanol probably twice each week. That’s 80 times the potentially fatal dose! That’s gotta be bad to breathe in, even if its only the residue the following morning.
Mind you, there are lots of amateur biodiesel producers and they can’t all have damaged central nervous systems. And I have plenty of spiders living in the garage.
I wonder if there’s any way to test for methanol poisoning.
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... typically I’ll bubble off about 4 litres of methanol probably twice each week
I hope you don't smoke ... http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/healthandsafety.html
I wonder if there’s any way to test for methanol poisoning.
Inhaled methanol would be measurable in blood and urine (and even saliva) ... http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/88/1/30
Methanol's breakdown products have a longer half life than the methanol ...
Thirty per cent of the ingested dose is excreted unchanged by the respiratory tract. The kidney excretes less than 5% of unchanged methanol. Formate is detectable in the urine from 4 to 10 days after a single exposure (Baselt, 1982a). Urine formate excretion >70 mg/24 hours confirms the diagnosis of methanol intoxication (Bozza-Marrubini et al., l987). This compares with an average urinary formate concentration of 2 to 30 mg/L in non-exposed subjects (Baselt, 1982a; Shaller & Triebig, 1985).
http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/chemical/pim335.htm#4.3%20Occupationally%20exposed%20populations
I have plenty of spiders living in the garage.
How would you know whether or not the spiders were intoxicated ? [ [:D] ]
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Hi RD
That's really interesting.
I thought the 'spiders on drugs' film was hilarious. I going to send that to all my friends.