Naked Science Forum
General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: Titanscape on 08/06/2007 06:16:30
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Christendom has been a great foundation of civilization, faulted leaders yes, but the rigid Bible benevolent and wise.
Rome was a briliiant civilization with laws and rights... but also the violence and unstable government, and Nero the psychopath.
What would we have now if all we had was Mars, Bacchus, Jupiter, Atheism, Odinne...?
Karl Marx grew and thought in a society much influenced by Jesus Christ. Socialists apologise saying, in Hungary, that his ideas weren't all bad, they even resemble Jesus ideas.
I see that, even Solomon wrote that he prayed as wisdom, not to have too much or too little. For relationship, nice.
But we see in Marx applied that the principles were called "social" but Russia was not according to and isn't a principled people now, after decades of forced atheism.
They lost their motivation and there principles. Have other drives. Look at sex there now. And the old Russian and Romanian orphanages. Stalin's five days of anarchy.
Even though the Bible was not an economics book, better economy and workers rights and people's welfare comes from it's adherents and those influenced by it.
Paul the apostle gently pushed away slavery and encouraged charity form region of plenty to drought... little things.
Marx overlooked the economy. And the source of principle and motivation to be principled as for social welfare.
Was Marx trying to look beyond materialism?
I then write that we must be careful of Dawkins, a new age Karl Marx and the possible degeneration of moral and just principles and drives to accord them. Atheist sure have fun sometimes but they really aren't out to be benevolent. It is spiritual and sometimes religious people who want more than pleasures and self interest.
Atheism is like a Chameleon, in the ages, but what if the Chameleon determines it's own colour?
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Christendom has been a great foundation of civilization, faulted leaders yes, but the rigid Bible benevolent and wise.
That depends on one's perspective. Christendom has killed more people than anything else except, possibly, malaria. The Bible is full of contradictions. The Old Testament is fairly consistent - God saying "Agree with me, worship me, or I'll smite you" (very benevolent). The New Testament is fairly consistent. But the 2 don't fit together.
Rome was a briliiant civilization with laws and rights... but also the violence and unstable government, and Nero the psychopath.
Almost entirely copied from the Athenians (apart from the excess violence).
What would we have now if all we had was Mars, Bacchus, Jupiter, Atheism, Odinne...?
4 Gods & atheism? Interesting combination.
Karl Marx grew and thought in a society much influenced by Jesus Christ. Socialists apologise saying, in Hungary, that his ideas weren't all bad, they even resemble Jesus ideas.
True apart from "Turn the other cheek". Jesus was a socialist pacifist.
I see that, even Solomon wrote that he prayed as wisdom, not to have too much or too little. For relationship, nice.
But ended up as rich as Croesus.
But we see in Marx applied that the principles were called "social" but Russia was not according to and isn't a principled people now, after decades of forced atheism.
Faulty leadership? Faulty ideology? In my opinion, the reasons for the state of Russia today are them having tried to implement a flawed philosophy. Suddenly having the shackles removed after years of repression was bound to result in a drastic reaction. I don't see that forced atheism has anything to do with it. (By the way, the percentage of Christians was steadily increasing in the USSR prior to its collapse. Plus, Islam was always flourishing in the Asiatic Soviets.)
Unfortunately I don't have time to address your other points at the moment, but I will do so later.
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Also... sharia (sp?) law is guided by religious principles (tho' not chrisitan), but frankly I'd probably rather die than live under some of its implementations.
The thing about atheism is I don't just not belive in "God", I don't believe in Ganesh, Thor, Aphrodite, *or* the (supposedly) single (or possibly triune) god of the people of the book. I haven't even been touched by the noodly appendage of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
You can cherry-pick excellent laws from any religion, but that's what it is. I find the bigotry people justify by going back to their holy texts deeply morally objectionable.
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Christendom has been a great foundation of civilization, faulted leaders yes, but the rigid Bible benevolent and wise.
Mass Killings And Cruelties Ordered, Committed, Approved By God
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The entire population of the earth at the time of Noah, except for eight survivors, in a flood. "And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth; and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark." Gen 7:23
Every inhabitant of Sodom and Gammorrah, and the surrounding plain, by "brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven." Gen 19:24 Lot and his family fled.
All the first born of every family in Egypt, including children of those in dungeons and the successor to the throne of Egypt's Pharaoh, by God on the first Passover night. Ex 12:29
All the hosts of Pharaoh, including the captains of 600 chariots, who drown in the Red Sea while pursuing the Israelites. "... and the Lord overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea." Ex 14:27-28
Victims who perish in the conquest of seven nations in Canaan by the Jews under Gods' guidance so that the Jews can occupy their lands as God had promised Abraham in Deut 7:1,2. The Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites were all destroyed, every man, woman and child and mercy was shown to none.
Amalek and his people, by the edge of the sword, because God wants to fight with Amalek from generation to generation (maybe just for fun). The Israelites win if Aaron helps Moses to hold up his hands.
3,000 Israelites die at the hands of their brothers, the Levites, every man, their brothers and their companions. Ex. 32:27
Rulers of Israel, eleven in number after spying for forty days that wouldn't invade the Promised Land are killed by a plague. Num. 14:37
250 Levite princes of the Jews who challenged the leadership of Moses. When Moses points out the injustice of killing the whole congregation God relents briefly, then swallows up two of the princes, "their wives, sons and little children", then sent a fire to consume the remaining princes. Num. 16:1-40
14,700 people die by plague who protest to Moses about the prior killing of the 250 princes. Aaron makes an atonement to stop the plague. Num 16:41-49
The Canaanites at Hormah, utterly destroyed, every man woman and child, by God at the request of the Jews. Num 21:3
The Amorites at Hesbon, Israel "took all these cities". Moses sums up the slaughter: "We... utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones." Num 21:25 and Deut 2:34
All the sons and subjects of Og, about whom the Lord said to Moses: "Fear him (the king of Bashan) not, for I have delivered him into thy hand." None was left alive. Num 21:34-35
24,000 Israelites who cohabitated with Moabite women and worshiped Baal. "And the Lord said to Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun..." Num 25:4,9
All the males and the kings of the Middianites, because they worshiped idols, and all their wives and male children were sold into slavery. "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, vex the Midianites, and smite them." Num 25:16-17 and Num 31:7-8
The subjects of two kingdoms on the east side of the Jordan, in order that Reuben and Gad might seize the land for their own as a gift from God. Num 32
The Ammonites, decimated by the Lord so that Lot might possess their land. Deut 2:19-21
The Horims, slain by God in order that Esau might take their land. Deut 2:22
All the citizens of Jericho, except for a whore and her family. "And they utterly destroyed all in the city, man and woman, young and old, and ox... with the edge of the sword." Josh 6 "They" make a grizzly game of it , using the superstitious number 7 popular in the Bible.
12,000 men, women and children die in a treacherous ambush conceived and directed by God. Joshua, with the usual mindless hocus-pocus, holds out his spear until all the inhabitants are dead. The city was then burned. Afterwards Joshua builds an altar and offers thanks to God. Josh 8:1-30
All the people of Makkedah, and their king hanged, by Joshua. Joshua 10:28
All the people of Libnah. Not a soul remained. Joshua 10:29-30
All the people of Gezer, with none remaining, are killed. Josh 10:33
All the people of Eglon, none remaining, are killed. Joshua 10:34-35
All the people of Hebron, "All the cities and souls that were in them". Joshua 10:36-37
All the inhabitants of the country of the hills, and the south of the vale, and the springs and their kings, he left none remaining but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40
The inhabitants of Gaza, Askerlon, and Ekron, killed by Judah and Caleb. Judges 1:18-19
10,000 Moabites, killed by the Israelites. Judges 3:29
10,000 Perizzites and Canaanites die at the hand of Judah and Simeon. Judges 1:4
120,000 Midianites die by the hands of Gideons three hundred men. Judges 8:10
50,070 people of Bethshemesh, struck dead by God because a few of them looked at/into the Ark carrying the stone tablets. 1st Samuel 6:19
70,000 victims die of a pestilence sent by God because David took a census. 11 Sam 24:15
Although Adam and Eve have no sense of right and wrong when they eat of the Tree of Knowledge, God accuses them of sinning and tosses them out of their home. Prejudging the human race he then decrees that all shall suffer for this "sin" by returning to the dust from which Adam was made. The Christian God curses women with painful birth. Gen 3
Cain kills Abel because God is partial to altar sacrifices, preferring animals to grain. Gen 4
At the time of the Flood, a disaster not uncommon to the tradition of other religions, Noah, an imbiber, and his family are the only persons deemed righteous enough to be saved from drowning. All others, including pregnant women and children, are given no opportunity to survive the rising waters. Gen 7,8
Again attributing sin to innocents God fails to find even 10 persons, or embryos in any stage of gestation, saintly enough to escape the fire and brimstone God turns Lots wife into a pillar of salt when she looks back in horror at what is happening to her friends and neighbors. Gen 19
Abraham is certainly willing to do what ever the Lord demands of him, even when God orders him to kill his son. But all turns out Ok when an angel yells really loud to Abraham that it was just a test to see how much he loved God. Isaac is very lucky indeed. Abraham may have been near deaf at his age and the Angel was calling long distance from heaven. Gen 22
need i go on?
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
be·nev·o·lent /bəˈnɛvələnt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[buh-nev-uh-luhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. characterized by or expressing goodwill or kindly feelings: a benevolent attitude; her benevolent smile.
2. desiring to help others; charitable: gifts from several benevolent alumni.
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Atheist sure have fun sometimes but they really aren't out to be benevolent. It is spiritual and sometimes religious people who want more than pleasures and self interest.
Sorry this is a huge generalisation I know lots of really unpleasent self interested religious people and lots of selfless athiests. Also I would suggest that you read some history of the middle ages eg 'A distant Mirror" by Barbara Tuchan, there are loads of highly christian nobles who spent their time killing people for profit.
Do you actually prefer religious justice to the secular kind? in which case next time you break the speed limit you can try picking up a piece of red hot iron - if you blister you are guilty, if God sees fit to heal you then you were obviously innocent. Or you could go for trial by combat, as if you survive you must have been innocent as God chose to favour you with luck, and it has nothing to do with the fact that your sword is 6 inches longer than the other guy's.
Rome was a briliiant civilization with laws and rights... but also the violence and unstable government, and Nero the psychopath.
Just look into a few historical christian governments - Ivan the terrible - who used to put a whole village into a house and then burn the house down when he was in a friendly mood, thought he was told to do it by God. Thousands of women were burnt at the stake, mostly for knowing some medcine, getting poisoned by mouldy rye or looking funny during the english civil war, and in America, in order to save their souls.
There are good governments and bad governments, but it doesn't have a lot to do with which religion they profess to follow.
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Just briefly to begin with, the people of Noah's day were warlords, apparently, half human. Violent day and night, rapists...
They were offered with Noah shouting over them to I believe drink living water and have eternal life, but would not relent, and would not believe there to be a flood coming and join Noah in building arks...
Noah's family was under his control, believed and were saved. This is a type of the end times. Now.
It was better for children to die innocent then grow up in the violent culture.
It is better for us to be descended from Noah than warlords.
Jesus still died for the ancients in Christian teaching.
So more grace is available now, but then the challenge had to be responded to with the last thing, after the grace, Noah's shouts over their angry voices and living water, anger and authority over life as coming from the source and judge.
This evil age and the concept of evil was a challenge that if let run meant all the Adamic race would be lost and God hopefully die, according to the violence source, ie, murder's creator Lucifer. He wants to be god... It was for our better. God is master over Lucifer and had to, as a last resort, also being it not yet the best time for Jesus to defeat Lucifer, had to flood and kill, death used by God.
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Just briefly to begin with, the people of Noah's day were warlords, apparently, half human. Violent day and night, rapists...
I think you'll find that the term "warlord" could equally well be applied to Joshua.
Half human? Are you saying that everyone in the world apart from Noah & his family were descendants of the Sons of God who "...saw the daughters of Man and saw that they were fair"?
...murder's creator Lucifer
Lucifer created murder? So what you're saying is that God was copying Lucifer when he smote all those people? That's certainly a novel twist!
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No, not saying God copied Lucifer, he did not create death, but it has a part in life after the fall.
All by now would be part Nephilim. Warlords unlike Joshua fought for wealth and power not God or love or the hope of a messiah or for justice or God's promise of the defeat of Satan. But for Satan.
Joshua saw the creator in the distance, an angel and fire... Joshua opposed injustice.
The people he opposed had for generations refused grace, and their last chance. Otherwise srael would have lived with them.
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Lucifer created murder? So what you're saying is that God was copying Lucifer when he smote all those people? That's certainly a novel twist!
i think they call it peer pressure, in light of this the government are banning smoting at the start of next month
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi154.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs262%2Fpf0604%2Fsmoting.jpg&hash=024ab32bd80fcbcb405a04293ae16aab)
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[:D]
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No, not saying God copied Lucifer, he did not create death, but it has a part in life after the fall.
But if Lucifer created murder and then, subsequently, God murdered someone (lots of someones, actually), that in itself is an act of copying. Certainly in the human realm, if I do something & then you do it, people would say you had copied me. I'm only using the same logic.
Just as a point of interest - if God is so powerful, why did he need Joshua to do his killing for him? He could've done it a lot quicker himself. Or why didn't he just convert the unbelievers with a righteous click of his holy fingers?
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Titanscape - when was Lucifer kicked out of Heaven?
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I'm puzzled about the idea that the Christians morality comes from the bible. OK, if they really believe a la Leviticus (. He that curseth his father, or mother, let him die. He hath cursed his father, and mother: let his blood be upon him.)that children should be put to death for cheeking their parents then they are truly getting their morallity from the bible. If they don't do that, but chose to pick bits of the morality from the bible then, whatever principles they are using to pick and choose are their morallity; not the bible.
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Lucifer was said to fall like lightning, maybe to an ambition on earth or as ejected. But after his plot to kill God, God could not tolerate his presence. However he is a dignitary, empowered and in Job's book is in Heaven again accusing... clever legalists doesn't get booted and knows how to remain...
In Revelation he gets booted again. And rages on earth, I think it's now.
God does not hate and murder, as author of life He can take life, we take lamb's lives, it is not murder. It is slaughter.
Our officers can give us the license to kill under orders of the sovereignty. God the more. Be careful of false prophetic politicians.
Lucifer, now Satan wants stealing and death... But in his unknowing death is better over all than if people live on endlessly and continue to worsen in nature and ambition, so God would not allow Adam to eat from the tree of life as well.
God outwitting and Satan unwitting agree. Satan is tremendously proud and will not relent of his aim. He is sure God will yet die, God is sure Satan will become His footstool.
So all die before about 120 yrs. Then next generation has another chance, a try to be and a try to cause true justice of heart.
I imagine the idea of not dying would seem to you very unscientific.
Joshua, killed with Israel I think because the world is cursed, there were moments when God considered killing all the people and starting again with Moses. Sin was soooo effective, God could not tolerate it! But to Israel He opened His eyes, and favoured them, but sin was like capsicum spray. Clever Satan. Open eyes means blessings or patience and maybe judgement.
"God winked at the nations" until now, His plans revealed.
Yes He could have just sent in angels to kill them as a matter of power. I don't feel sure I know why He used the swords of Israel. Angels may not preach either. Although angels of light destroy armies in later times and Egypt met the destroyer. I think he was Satan.
I think if God wanted to use angels, for Amor, He would also have to use the angels to convert them.
Angels are never called "son" either, good point I will look into this.
People can refuse God, He can only offer as much as is available in a world cut off from Heaven. He cannot force ones like the Amorites. And they had no covenant, little did they have. Maybe not even teachers.
Jesus said that if He gave Sodom whate He gave Tyre and Sidon that they would have repented. They will rise in judgement.
Now we have the cross of Christ, later still is more.
Then and now blood covenant is relevant and available.
We pick and choose using the Gospels and Epistles, the concept of love as foremost, and the OT people as hard hearted in a time when Satan was strong and God very much cut off from expression, even angels struggled to come down, taking weeks. From dark angels effect.
The Apostle Paul used the OT and as he did we do. Jesus said their hearts were hard.
The NT aim is not only for Israel but that Israel is to serve the nations.
Our fairness and God's justice are not quite parallel.
We don't sacrifice lambs as Moses, we have Jesus as our Lamb, and we prefer to allow even murderers to live for God loves them, of course we imprison them. Medieval governments and the ancient were stricter. Jesus Gospel has the love concept in it.
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Christendom has been a great foundation of civilization, faulted leaders yes, but the rigid Bible benevolent and wise.
Mass Killings And Cruelties Ordered, Committed, Approved By God
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The entire population of the earth at the time of Noah, except for eight survivors, in a flood. "And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth; and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark." Gen 7:23
Every inhabitant of Sodom and Gammorrah, and the surrounding plain, by "brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven." Gen 19:24 Lot and his family fled.
All the first born of every family in Egypt, including children of those in dungeons and the successor to the throne of Egypt's Pharaoh, by God on the first Passover night. Ex 12:29
All the hosts of Pharaoh, including the captains of 600 chariots, who drown in the Red Sea while pursuing the Israelites. "... and the Lord overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea." Ex 14:27-28
Victims who perish in the conquest of seven nations in Canaan by the Jews under Gods' guidance so that the Jews can occupy their lands as God had promised Abraham in Deut 7:1,2. The Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites were all destroyed, every man, woman and child and mercy was shown to none.
Amalek and his people, by the edge of the sword, because God wants to fight with Amalek from generation to generation (maybe just for fun). The Israelites win if Aaron helps Moses to hold up his hands.
3,000 Israelites die at the hands of their brothers, the Levites, every man, their brothers and their companions. Ex. 32:27
Rulers of Israel, eleven in number after spying for forty days that wouldn't invade the Promised Land are killed by a plague. Num. 14:37
250 Levite princes of the Jews who challenged the leadership of Moses. When Moses points out the injustice of killing the whole congregation God relents briefly, then swallows up two of the princes, "their wives, sons and little children", then sent a fire to consume the remaining princes. Num. 16:1-40
14,700 people die by plague who protest to Moses about the prior killing of the 250 princes. Aaron makes an atonement to stop the plague. Num 16:41-49
The Canaanites at Hormah, utterly destroyed, every man woman and child, by God at the request of the Jews. Num 21:3
The Amorites at Hesbon, Israel "took all these cities". Moses sums up the slaughter: "We... utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones." Num 21:25 and Deut 2:34
All the sons and subjects of Og, about whom the Lord said to Moses: "Fear him (the king of Bashan) not, for I have delivered him into thy hand." None was left alive. Num 21:34-35
24,000 Israelites who cohabitated with Moabite women and worshiped Baal. "And the Lord said to Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun..." Num 25:4,9
All the males and the kings of the Middianites, because they worshiped idols, and all their wives and male children were sold into slavery. "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, vex the Midianites, and smite them." Num 25:16-17 and Num 31:7-8
The subjects of two kingdoms on the east side of the Jordan, in order that Reuben and Gad might seize the land for their own as a gift from God. Num 32
The Ammonites, decimated by the Lord so that Lot might possess their land. Deut 2:19-21
The Horims, slain by God in order that Esau might take their land. Deut 2:22
All the citizens of Jericho, except for a whore and her family. "And they utterly destroyed all in the city, man and woman, young and old, and ox... with the edge of the sword." Josh 6 "They" make a grizzly game of it , using the superstitious number 7 popular in the Bible.
12,000 men, women and children die in a treacherous ambush conceived and directed by God. Joshua, with the usual mindless hocus-pocus, holds out his spear until all the inhabitants are dead. The city was then burned. Afterwards Joshua builds an altar and offers thanks to God. Josh 8:1-30
All the people of Makkedah, and their king hanged, by Joshua. Joshua 10:28
All the people of Libnah. Not a soul remained. Joshua 10:29-30
All the people of Gezer, with none remaining, are killed. Josh 10:33
All the people of Eglon, none remaining, are killed. Joshua 10:34-35
All the people of Hebron, "All the cities and souls that were in them". Joshua 10:36-37
All the inhabitants of the country of the hills, and the south of the vale, and the springs and their kings, he left none remaining but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40
The inhabitants of Gaza, Askerlon, and Ekron, killed by Judah and Caleb. Judges 1:18-19
10,000 Moabites, killed by the Israelites. Judges 3:29
10,000 Perizzites and Canaanites die at the hand of Judah and Simeon. Judges 1:4
120,000 Midianites die by the hands of Gideons three hundred men. Judges 8:10
50,070 people of Bethshemesh, struck dead by God because a few of them looked at/into the Ark carrying the stone tablets. 1st Samuel 6:19
70,000 victims die of a pestilence sent by God because David took a census. 11 Sam 24:15
Although Adam and Eve have no sense of right and wrong when they eat of the Tree of Knowledge, God accuses them of sinning and tosses them out of their home. Prejudging the human race he then decrees that all shall suffer for this "sin" by returning to the dust from which Adam was made. The Christian God curses women with painful birth. Gen 3
Cain kills Abel because God is partial to altar sacrifices, preferring animals to grain. Gen 4
At the time of the Flood, a disaster not uncommon to the tradition of other religions, Noah, an imbiber, and his family are the only persons deemed righteous enough to be saved from drowning. All others, including pregnant women and children, are given no opportunity to survive the rising waters. Gen 7,8
Again attributing sin to innocents God fails to find even 10 persons, or embryos in any stage of gestation, saintly enough to escape the fire and brimstone God turns Lots wife into a pillar of salt when she looks back in horror at what is happening to her friends and neighbors. Gen 19
Abraham is certainly willing to do what ever the Lord demands of him, even when God orders him to kill his son. But all turns out Ok when an angel yells really loud to Abraham that it was just a test to see how much he loved God. Isaac is very lucky indeed. Abraham may have been near deaf at his age and the Angel was calling long distance from heaven. Gen 22
need i go on?
No you dont paul, Thats all old testament!
JESUS does show a new and better way!
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I thought it was still the same God who was responsible for all those deaths as the one that the "new testament" christians want us to worship.
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God was not responsible for their deaths in that He did not cause the need for the people to be cut off from this world.
He planned on overcoming death itself, and the time for that to be accomplished was about 33 AD.
He is the same God, yet further revealed as YHWH is Salvation in Jesus and His neccesarily hidden plan was revealed in the NT and His love much more freely expressed and revealed as the highest way, only dimly revealed in the OT. So then that is how we see the OT and use it. Also in making laws...
God was not happy with the needs of the OT and gave us the new as was His desire. He is all good, the NT has such a verse, He causes no darkness by turning. But it takes it's toll, it won battles against God and angered Him and pushed Him to extremes and sorrows.
But you can see in the Decalogue that God wants and is love and Jonah even then expressed that to gentile Ninevah who repented, and Jesus is a greater Jonah. Coming back from death for us all.
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No you dont paul, Thats all old testament!
JESUS does show a new and better way!
oh, so it was OK to go around killing in the old testament! then we just brush everything under the carpet and write another testament to make one look better!
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God does not hate and murder
should there be an anymore inserted there?
author of life He can take life, we take lamb's lives, it is not murder. It is slaughter.
oh, it's only slaughter!
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No you dont paul, Thats all old testament!
JESUS does show a new and better way!
oh, so it was OK to go around killing in the old testament! then we just brush everything under the carpet and write another testament to make one look better!
You really dont get it paul, God can make a mistake! as we all can!
Jesus came if anything to promote a new era in gods name, ´God is love´
You are not sinless, should your sin forever be sat over your head? or should you and others forgive it? and move on!
You may not believe in God, but should God exsist, you owe God your exsistence, no?
But God doesnt kill people, people kill people(some people kill claiming they do it in gods name, but you cant as to do that is to break the commandment- Thou shall not kill), ultimatley God will not destroy anyone until the day of judgement!
The spirit moves on!
You see you dont know if there is a God or not; You throw out these posts what, under a vain of trying to prove God evil?
I would look at yourself before judgeing someone else, and most certainly before judgeing God! For if you are wrong you will one day have to face him!
If God made man and the world then God, can do as God pleases, however God loves us and wants us to be free, If there is a golden rule its ´dont mess about and harm the other things God created´ You know treat others as you wish to be treated!
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You really dont get it paul, God can make a mistake! as we all can!
god makes mistakes! wow, i thought he was supposed to be perfect. can you provide any biblical text where it is stated that gog made mistakes?
Jesus came if anything to promote a new era in gods name, ´God is love´
a new era! so god realised that he had made mistakes in ordering all of those murders (sorry, slaughters)and set forth jesus to say sorry for his sins?
You are not sinless, should your sin forever be sat over your head? or should you and others forgive it? and move on!
You may not believe in God, but should God exsist, you owe God your exsistence, no?
please name and shame me with the sins i have committed. do i realy owe my existance to god, please show me how.
ultimatley God will not destroy anyone until the day of judgement!
thats ok then!!!
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You really dont get it paul, God can make a mistake! as we all can!
god makes mistakes! wow, i thought he was supposed to be perfect. can you provide any biblical text where it is stated that gog made mistakes?
Jesus came if anything to promote a new era in gods name, ´God is love´
a new era! so god realised that he had made mistakes in ordering all of those murders (sorry, slaughters)and set forth jesus to say sorry for his sins?
You are not sinless, should your sin forever be sat over your head? or should you and others forgive it? and move on!
You may not believe in God, but should God exsist, you owe God your exsistence, no?
please name and shame me with the sins i have committed. do i realy owe my existance to god, please show me how.
ultimatley God will not destroy anyone until the day of judgement!
thats ok then!!!
The flood It didnt work and evil returned!
Well if you think you have never sinned thats fine, Not my job to judge you but really do you even know how many ways there are to sin? Envy is a sin for example, you saying you never felt envious of someone else?
Be it o.k or not you really have no place to judge anyone!
please name and shame me with the sins i have committed. do i realy owe my existance to god, please show me how.
Thats lovely paul, sarky though it is I´m sure you´ll fine, given a few years reflection!
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The flood It didnt work and evil returned!
so, the god who does not kill and loves everyone - even sinners - did try to kill lots of people!
Well if you think you have never sinned thats fine, Not my job to judge you but really do you even know how many ways there are to sin? Envy is a sin for example, you saying you never felt envious of someone else?
Be it o.k or not you really have no place to judge anyone!
to have sinned i must first believe in god, yet not all religions believe in sin. why should i be envious of anyone? i have a daughter who i love and loves me back, health, happiness...
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The flood It didnt work and evil returned!
so, the god who does not kill and loves everyone - even sinners - did try to kill lots of people!
Well you see, your only looking at this in terms of flesh, you clearly believe that when you die you die and do not carry on!
Well if you think you have never sinned thats fine, Not my job to judge you but really do you even know how many ways there are to sin? Envy is a sin for example, you saying you never felt envious of someone else?
Be it o.k or not you really have no place to judge anyone!
to have sinned i must first believe in god, yet not all religions believe in sin. why should i be envious of anyone? i have a daughter who i love and loves me back, health, happiness...
No sorry but crimes be they of religious or human origin are crimes! And ultimately saying I do not believe in god and therefore, I have a loop hole within which I can avoid sining, is incorrect as weather you believe in god or not, should god exsist, there is no loophole!
Thou shall not covert thy neibours ox, wife, etc All you need to do is think it, for a moment! and there are so many things others own that a man or women can covert! Inteligence, wealth, a pencil or nice pen!
We have all sinned everyone of us but that is not the issue, some sins are great and others lesser, but you must move beyond that and forgive yourself and also be forgiven, The hardest of the two is the first one, But you need the right emotional understanding first, before that can ever be understood!
Most sin daily but ultimately are not aware that they are doing so! The heap of confusion that spins around inside their heads! Should you one day understand, I pray you have the strength not to fall and stumble in the darkness! God will forgive you, but you must be ready to except that, but do many run in fear!
Amazing grace how sweet the sound
that saved a wreatch like me
I once was lost but now I´m found
Was blind but now can see
It´s hard I know as many will no comprihend the truth and it is hard for those that know to explain it,
But be you an athiest, You clearly demand proff, or think ´how could God exsist, surely the world would be a better place´
In responce, proff is there should you gain the eyes to see, and with regards to the latter, God made man free and soverigns of the earth, the world therefore is how we choose it! For God to stop men acting in the way they choose, would be to remove their freedom and turn them into slaves! There is however a price to acting in an evil manner, as you must respect the other creatures God created, Why in the end should evil be allow to carry on harming others?
and the reality is it shall not, your are given by God gifts of life and freedom if you misuse those gifts and take life and freedom from others, for you are not more importaint than them and therefore if evil, will be removed in the end, thought it not be the end for good people but a new beginning!
As the saying gos ´all evil needs to domiate the world is for good men to sit back and do nothing!´
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Quote from: paul.fr on 09/06/2007 23:14:39
Quote from: jolly on 09/06/2007 23:03:41
Well if you think you have never sinned thats fine, Not my job to judge you but really do you even know how many ways there are to sin? Envy is a sin for example, you saying you never felt envious of someone else?
Be it o.k or not you really have no place to judge anyone!
to have sinned i must first believe in god, yet not all religions believe in sin. why should i be envious of anyone? i have a daughter who i love and loves me back, health, happiness...
No sorry but crimes be they of religious or human origin are crimes! And ultimately saying I do not believe in god and therefore, I have a loop hole within which I can avoid sining, is incorrect as weather you believe in god or not, should god exsist, there is no loophole!
No loophole? What if you've never heard of God or Jesus? There must be millions of Chinese who haven't.
In Revelation he gets booted again. And rages on earth, I think it's now.
Booted again? So when was he let back in?
I believe 1 of the 10 commandments is "Thou shalt not kill". Hmmm, looks like God broke his own commandment, doesn't it. Oh, of course, that was "slaughter"; a totally different thing - more akin to genocide.
Speaking of the 10 commandments...
"You shall have no other gods before me." - He didn't say there are no other Gods.
"...you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me" - Jealousy, vindictiveness, infanticide. Plus he said "...a jealous God". If he were the only 1 then simply saying "I get jealous" would suffice. By saying "...a jealous God" he is inferring that there are other Gods who do NOT get jealous.
Let's face it, either God had a personality change between the OT & the NT or it's a different God. Or (dare I suggest?) the whole thing is a load of old cods!
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Quote from: paul.fr on 09/06/2007 23:14:39
Quote from: jolly on 09/06/2007 23:03:41
Well if you think you have never sinned thats fine, Not my job to judge you but really do you even know how many ways there are to sin? Envy is a sin for example, you saying you never felt envious of someone else?
Be it o.k or not you really have no place to judge anyone!
to have sinned i must first believe in god, yet not all religions believe in sin. why should i be envious of anyone? i have a daughter who i love and loves me back, health, happiness...
No sorry but crimes be they of religious or human origin are crimes! And ultimately saying I do not believe in god and therefore, I have a loop hole within which I can avoid sining, is incorrect as weather you believe in god or not, should god exsist, there is no loophole!
No loophole? What if you've never heard of God or Jesus? There must be millions of Chinese who haven't.
In Revelation he gets booted again. And rages on earth, I think it's now.
Booted again? So when was he let back in?
Who posted/said that?
I believe 1 of the 10 commandments is "Thou shalt not kill". Hmmm, looks like God broke his own commandment, doesn't it. Oh, of course, that was "slaughter"; a totally different thing - more akin to genocide.
Speaking of the 10 commandments...
"You shall have no other gods before me." - He didn't say there are no other Gods.
"...you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me" - Jealousy, vindictiveness, infanticide. Plus he said "...a jealous God". If he were the only 1 then simply saying "I get jealous" would suffice. By saying "...a jealous God" he is inferring that there are other Gods who do NOT get jealous.
Let's face it, either God had a personality change between the OT & the NT or it's a different God. Or (dare I suggest?) the whole thing is a load of old cods!
You clearly dont get it, though other god do not exsist people in there freedom do make stuff up and follow all sorts of things, The point being there is only one!
But you can, if you choose say this twig I hold is a god or something, or put money at the top of your agenda and therefore money becomes your god as it becomes the thing you consider most important!
The commandment ´thou shall have no gods before me´- really means, you should put nothing above God!
As as for thou shall not kill, God has killed no-one, as the spirit remains awaiting judgment! as is says ´the dead shall rise to be judged!´
Who are you anyway to judge God? You are accusing God of breaking the commandments! No sorry you are calling God a mass murderer!- genocide?
I would suggest you tread more cafefully with things you fail to understand!
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Christendom has been a great foundation of civilization, faulted leaders yes, but the rigid Bible benevolent and wise.
Rome was a briliiant civilization with laws and rights... but also the violence and unstable government, and Nero the psychopath.
What would we have now if all we had was Mars, Bacchus, Jupiter, Atheism, Odinne...?
Karl Marx grew and thought in a society much influenced by Jesus Christ. Socialists apologise saying, in Hungary, that his ideas weren't all bad, they even resemble Jesus ideas.
I see that, even Solomon wrote that he prayed as wisdom, not to have too much or too little. For relationship, nice.
But we see in Marx applied that the principles were called "social" but Russia was not according to and isn't a principled people now, after decades of forced atheism.
They lost their motivation and there principles. Have other drives. Look at sex there now. And the old Russian and Romanian orphanages. Stalin's five days of anarchy.
Even though the Bible was not an economics book, better economy and workers rights and people's welfare comes from it's adherents and those influenced by it.
Paul the apostle gently pushed away slavery and encouraged charity form region of plenty to drought... little things.
Marx overlooked the economy. And the source of principle and motivation to be principled as for social welfare.
Was Marx trying to look beyond materialism?
I then write that we must be careful of Dawkins, a new age Karl Marx and the possible degeneration of moral and just principles and drives to accord them. Atheist sure have fun sometimes but they really aren't out to be benevolent. It is spiritual and sometimes religious people who want more than pleasures and self interest.
Atheism is like a Chameleon, in the ages, but what if the Chameleon determines it's own colour?
Atheism has had moral benifits too! Not all atheists are immoral! anymore than all religious people good!
Good and bad morally speaking come on both sides of the border!
Dawkins said he´s an ´atheist for Jesus´! Religion has different concerns to atheism, but both have moral codes: Marx wrote very morally about equality from an athestic position!
But todays world really considers neither type of morality, everything is subserviant to the market and making money!
Profit is the master of todays world and anything that gets in it way must be removed! Everything is scaraficed to that end! and that really is utterly evil! GREED! and its banded as an inherent good! Which clearly is not the case!
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Other gods are man made, mythology, or God in another form.
Slaughter is not murder, murder is hateful.
Elohim Noah's day does the flood in anger with such as rape and murder. For the love of mankind and our future, even those who died, Elohim had to kill the race off because the promise was that Eve's descendant would be victorious over Satan who had deceived and instilled, murder, adultery, fornication, theft... in our race in Eve. Not only the mentioned sins, but death, and humiliation.
Through the flood, Noah and Mary, came Jesus victor over sin and death. I take it this faith we have to you like Paul, is a hypothesis.
Without the flood, we would be bodily part angel of darkness, under warlords and products of, also, in a culture of rape and violence with no hope. So Mary instead and Europe... is better.
Now when a Dr has to choose between one of two Siamese twins, is that murder? It happens!
Also mother or child? Old debates.
Slaughter is sometimes acceptable. For one in office.
God is perfect, no mistakes, just a powerful opponent exists. Like we are Lois Lane, in the hands of Lex Luthor or another, and God is like superman.
Jealousy if normal and sometimes good. Vindictiveness is good if not spiteful, so our courts and the varying degrees on sentences is good. In Sydney we appreciate our police.
Sin comes after God, and is designed to appeal to us and revile God. We have an enemy, so in times of Satan's strength, sin had to be dealt with strongly. No idols, they kill love for God and lose His ways set for us. No murder and adultery, they kill people and cause harm to us and revulse God. Especially in God's people who had the commands and promise of a redeemer.
God wanted a word made flesh of Israel, not from adultery...
God made us and knows what is good and what we are for. Adultery... are new, unclean ideas, destroying love, friendship, honour, trust, holiness, and is unjust. It harms life itself.
Genocide? Didn't a WW1 Dr sometimes have to cut off a leg from the knee down...? Before better treatment. Amor had to go.
We are to be loving after the likeness of Jesus, and love honour like Jesus... not become alike Satan and be mastered by sin, and become his children authored in sin and sharing destiny apart from God.
Satan was cast out, but in Job revisits. God's anger is short and even He does not needlessly kill dark angels. In Revelations the accuser is cast out again. It goes on.
Do you guys break any of the ten commands? Hard to be fathered by God if sin is so easy and salvation is rejected.