Naked Science Forum
Life Sciences => Plant Sciences, Zoology & Evolution => Topic started by: neilep on 14/11/2023 13:28:06
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I can appreciate a scenic landscape, a waterfall, a flower etc etc
Do you think it possible that animals, or certain animals, can do too ?
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That is a very good question! I have never thought about it visually! I am not sure, but as far as appreciating that the left side of the hill has a soggy wet mud hole, that might attract a pig to wallow in,
I might assume that this is a pleasant place for the pig to want to be, but as far as aesthetically pleasing to their mind as far as visual attraction, I'm not sure? Perhap a place close to water and a soft warm spot to lay in the sun etc for physical needs or such but to just want to appreciate its beauty or splendor may be more a human observation or pleasure..
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We really need to address the more fundamental question of what characteristics make a scene visually appealing to us, then ask how these might map onto the experiences, sensory spectrum and aspirations of another species.
I think a lot depends on experience and aspiration (which is to a large extent determined by experience). I recall a woman who had grown up in landscapes dominated by sand and camels, being appalled by the English midlands: "It's all too green!" but on the other hand when I described Essex to a colleague from Sierra Leone as "flat, dry, sunny, and too cold for mosquitoes" he said "It sounds like heaven."
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Humans are very visually-oriented.
Other animals rely more on other senses.
I can imagine a dog appreciating a beautiful scent that would be lost on a human.
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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I think a question that needs to be asked is: when did humans begin to "appreciate" beauty in the world around them?
Our genus evolved to be efficient hunters, hunting and killing an animal is an act of savagery. We presumably were much too occupied with survival to sit around yakking about how nice the world is. At the time.
Or. maybe that's exactly what we did do, after a successful hunt.
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Killing for food is not an act of savagery - it is an act of necessity for a carnivore. This does raise the question of whether humans really are omnivores - on the one hand no other animal cooks its prey or needs tools to butcher it, but on the other hand we can catch and eat raw fish and insects. However in common with genuine carnivores, we don't need to spend all day eating as the nutritional value of flesh is much higher than that of grass: one good kill can feed a family for weeks so we can spend a lot of time sitting around planning the next hunt or lying about previous successes or the one that got away.
What I find interesting about prehistoric cave paintings is the exquisite detail of the other animals, whilst the humans are depicted as crude pin men. This suggests that they are a combination of teaching aids and expressions of appreciation of the beauty of the other species. There is a close association between beauty and functionality. We appreciate what can be generally described as athleticism in, say, dogs and cattle as well as humans, but apart from what are usually considered to be fertility figures (like the Venus of Willendorf) there is very little realistic depiction of the human form in prehistoric art.
Apart from maps and plans, which have obvious practical value, I wonder when humans began drawing and painting landscapes? Not a lot of point if you can see it whenever the sun shines, so it must have evolved at a late stage when folk travelled afar and returned to base with tales of strange sights, or lived in conurbations with very restricted horizons.
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Some animals can appreciate magic, so maybe they have a sense of beauty. Mr chimpanzee finds Mrs chimpanzee very beautiful and finds her enlarged posterior thing irresistible.
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That is a very good question! I have never thought about it visually! I am not sure, but as far as appreciating that the left side of the hill has a soggy wet mud hole, that might attract a pig to wallow in,
I might assume that this is a pleasant place for the pig to want to be, but as far as aesthetically pleasing to their mind as far as visual attraction, I'm not sure? Perhap a place close to water and a soft warm spot to lay in the sun etc for physical needs or such but to just want to appreciate its beauty or splendor may be more a human observation or pleasure..
Thank ewe Kareny Mam. I appreciate your comment. Interesting eh ?
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We really need to address the more fundamental question of what characteristics make a scene visually appealing to us, then ask how these might map onto the experiences, sensory spectrum and aspirations of another species.
I think a lot depends on experience and aspiration (which is to a large extent determined by experience). I recall a woman who had grown up in landscapes dominated by sand and camels, being appalled by the English midlands: "It's all too green!" but on the other hand when I described Essex to a colleague from Sierra Leone as "flat, dry, sunny, and too cold for mosquitoes" he said "It sounds like heaven."
Thank ewe Alan. So it seems very reasonable to accept that life experience has a lot to do here with regard to humans and to some degree I would expect for our animal chums too. Your first point is very true. Thank you.
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I can imagine a dog appreciating a beautiful scent that would be lost on a human.
....like another Dog's butt ? lol
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I best get my horse whisperer chum to go conduct an interview at the local horsey place. 😊
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I can imagine a dog appreciating a beautiful scent that would be lost on a human.
....like another Dog's butt ? lol
Now there's another interesting question. Not only do dogs have far more sensitive senses than us, but they also have an exceptional dynamic range.
Switching from arse-sniffing to tracking a rabbit that crossed his path several hours ago, or hearing a rabbit, pointing to it, and ignoring the subsequent gunshot, is all in a day's work.
Daleks can't walk up stairs, but when dogs re-evolve an opposable thumb, they will be able to open doors and thus rule the earth.
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My daughters dog opens our front door regularly with his nose... we have a lever handle and not a knob..LOL.... He never fails to smell our dinner cooking and comes down from his house to ours just as we are eating.. LOL... Waltzes in and demands he have some dinner too! LOL second dinner in his case! He will start talking to you, and he sounds a lot like Charlie Brown's teacher in the cartoon! LOL...
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Good point, and would you believe that the law varies from place to place?
I understand that round door knobs are banned in Canada: they want lever handles so that assistance dogs can open doors. Meanwhile handles are banned in Montana to prevent bears entering premises!
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There was a kennel on the local news a few years ago because the staff kept arriving in the morning to find all the dogs running loose. When they looked at the CCTV they found that one of the dogs had learned to open the bolt on the gate of his pen, and was letting himself out then going along the corridor letting all his mates out as well.
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I can imagine a dog appreciating a beautiful scent that would be lost on a human.
....like another Dog's butt ? lol
Now there's another interesting question. Not only do dogs have far more sensitive senses than us, but they also have an exceptional dynamic range.
Switching from arse-sniffing to tracking a rabbit that crossed his path several hours ago, or hearing a rabbit, pointing to it, and ignoring the subsequent gunshot, is all in a day's work.
Daleks can't walk up stairs, but when dogs re-evolve an opposable thumb, they will be able to open doors and thus rule the earth.
I've often wondered what it is that enables scents to linger for so long ? Is it a residue left on the ground etc ?
when dogs re-evolve an opposable thumb, they will be able to open doors and thus rule the earth.
I thought the Dolphins already run the place !
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I've often wondered what it is that enables scents to linger for so long ? Is it a residue left on the ground etc ?
Indeed. And it seems whilst some birds of prey can see the UV fluorescence of mouse urine tracks, dogs have sufficient differential sensitivity to determine which way the rabbit (or human) was travelling. Human pong is strong enough that dogs have tracked missing persons who holed themselves up in a cave or ditch for a couple of days.
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I thought the Dolphins already run the place !
And cats are quite certain that they do.
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All these comments are well and good but nobody is addressing the REAL question, do sheep appreciate beauty?
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There is no reason to suspect otherwise.
Human senses are very dull compared with most other species, and our brains are so busy with standing and moving on two legs (a triumph of software over bad mechanical design), warfare, the Meaning of Life, tax avoidance, and imagined insults, that we probably have far less capacity for aesthetic appreciation than a sheep.
What is this life if, full of care,
We have no time to stand and stare.
No time to stand beneath the boughs
And stare as long as sheep or cows........
WH Davies,1911.
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@varsigma
Just like You were trying to understand ' Energy ' on a deeper level...
May i ask, what do consider to be
" Beauty " ?
You surely must have some deep thoughts on it.
If you don't mind Sharing, I'd like to hear your Views/Opinions.
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All these comments are well and good but nobody is addressing the REAL question, do sheep appreciate beauty?
I think 'ewe're' bewetiful Paul !!😂
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@varsigma
Just like You were trying to understand ' Energy ' on a deeper level...
May i ask, what do consider to be
" Beauty " ?
You surely must have some deep thoughts on it.
If you don't mind Sharing, I'd like to hear your Views/Opinions.
Good question. From a purely subjective point of view I guess I see 'beauty' as a personal and emotional response influenced by individual experiences, preferences, and cultural backgrounds. I know that what I may deem beauty will be seen as ugly by someone else.
I know culturally, around the world there are things that are considered beautiful that would not be considered so elsewhere.
I know there are art pieces that I see as beautiful and others not.
What about you ?
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I think you're spot on with that opinion on beauty, and I think that may influence your sheep question also. What they consider beauty may simply be a comfortable safe place to graze. Not necessarily the knowledge of the scene looking beautiful to the eye but looking and making them feel safe satisfied and at ease...
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What about you ?
Ditto!
ps - Great Answer!
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I know there are art pieces that I see as beautiful and others not.
What about you ?
There have been no complaints, but the usual adjective is "handsome", "hunky", or "hot" rather than beautiful.