[Robertt (OP)]

Hi, would like a scientific/philosophical argument on a discussion I am having. Any help greatly appreciated. Cheers
______________________________________________

That's great you've managed to created more gaps for God to fill. The truth is that I'm not one the spoon fed by religion, I asked questions which makes more sense when intelligence is applied to bridge gaps than to assume the universe is based on chaos and disorder. God exists before time and makes His preexistence illogical for He's the source of all energy, time,space and matter. Tell me, are your thoughts products of randomness or consciousness? this consciousness is it a product of disorder? Because religion cannot base its argument on physical evidence doesn't make its claims invalid otherwise rather it superimposes science in its entirety. The problem is that nowadays people misuse religion for their selfish requests and make God distant them the non religious POV becomes warped about the truth throwing the baby out with the bath water, discrediting every ties to the Creator. We all know this but some people just choose apply the same principles of man to God. They think God is a finite entity that dwells in the Sky, that's limited because unfavourable things happen and fail to see they are part of a grand design.
All scientific facts still change to meet up with God's word. Today, the prophecies of the Bible are unravelling : internet, cashless transactions, space exploration, cloning and Modern Warfare are all documented. If we disregard the Bible as the truth because of the God you despise, then only those who pay attention will tap into the knowledge and be able to preemptively avert dangers by calling unto the Savior

Have ever wonder why there are miracles and faith healing that defy medical reports and diagnosis?
Have you asked what happens to consciousness when the body dies? The universe is vast and unexplored dimensions are merely touched and observed and man on his little blue rock doubt the existence of a Supreme Being ,the creator of the universe? Definitely science is taking the common sense out of people and philosophy is doing more harm of twisting faith with facts

One more thing, God is not "god of the gaps" as He's the source of all creation

“Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It’s like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can’t trust my own thinking, of course I can’t trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.” —C.S. Lewis

______________________________________

That is what he said.. I have come across a site that completely obliterates this quote on a reddit forum:
C.S. Lewis' Argument Against Atheism is a Joke and Here's Why

My overall view on the topic is this, which is a point within itself:

It seems like he's not advancing his own position by trying to trash another. It's called the argument from ignorance. He's setting up a false dichotomy where either the current scientific theory explains everything, or else "whatever his explanation is" wins by default. Not the case at all. If he did manage to debunk current theory (not likely) then we would simply have no good explanation. We would then investigate to find a new one. We wouldn't fill the gap of knowledge with magical fairy tales. He's really just displaying his ignorance.

But saying that I would want to try and counter the argument with what was said above and more, be it actually answering the questions or something else that science has taught us.

But the rest of it I would appreciate any assistance. I am doing this more for myself than debating but would like to do both.
Thanks

[guest39538]

Hi, would like a scientific/philosophical argument on a discussion I am having. Any help greatly appreciated. Cheers
______________________________________________

That's great you've managed to created more gaps for God to fill. The truth is that I'm not one the spoon fed by religion, I asked questions which makes more sense when intelligence is applied to bridge gaps than to assume the universe is based on chaos and disorder. God exists before time and makes His preexistence illogical for He's the source of all energy, time,space and matter. Tell me, are your thoughts products of randomness or consciousness? this consciousness is it a product of disorder? Because religion cannot base its argument on physical evidence doesn't make its claims invalid otherwise rather it superimposes science in its entirety. The problem is that nowadays people misuse religion for their selfish requests and make God distant them the non religious POV becomes warped about the truth throwing the baby out with the bath water, discrediting every ties to the Creator. We all know this but some people just choose apply the same principles of man to God. They think God is a finite entity that dwells in the Sky, that's limited because unfavourable things happen and fail to see they are part of a grand design.
All scientific facts still change to meet up with God's word. Today, the prophecies of the Bible are unravelling : internet, cashless transactions, space exploration, cloning and Modern Warfare are all documented. If we disregard the Bible as the truth because of the God you despise, then only those who pay attention will tap into the knowledge and be able to preemptively avert dangers by calling unto the Savior

Have ever wonder why there are miracles and faith healing that defy medical reports and diagnosis?
Have you asked what happens to consciousness when the body dies? The universe is vast and unexplored dimensions are merely touched and observed and man on his little blue rock doubt the existence of a Supreme Being ,the creator of the universe? Definitely science is taking the common sense out of people and philosophy is doing more harm of twisting faith with facts

One more thing, God is not "god of the gaps" as He's the source of all creation

“Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It’s like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can’t trust my own thinking, of course I can’t trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.” —C.S. Lewis

______________________________________

That is what he said.. I have come across a site that completely obliterates this quote on a reddit forum:
C.S. Lewis' Argument Against Atheism is a Joke and Here's Why

My overall view on the topic is this, which is a point within itself:

It seems like he's not advancing his own position by trying to trash another. It's called the argument from ignorance. He's setting up a false dichotomy where either the current scientific theory explains everything, or else "whatever his explanation is" wins by default. Not the case at all. If he did manage to debunk current theory (not likely) then we would simply have no good explanation. We would then investigate to find a new one. We wouldn't fill the gap of knowledge with magical fairy tales. He's really just displaying his ignorance.

But saying that I would want to try and counter the argument with what was said above and more, be it actually answering the questions or something else that science has taught us.

But the rest of it I would appreciate any assistance. I am doing this more for myself than debating but would like to do both.
Thanks

Which site is this person on? I will happily go hit them with some science and destroy his illusion.  It is very simple, he states God is a he, ask him the question what is God? 


He classifies God as a person by saying he, God is created from the mind because of the once firmament, point this out to them.

[alancalverd]

Here's the "O" level question.

1. Define "god"

2. If your god was the creator ef everything, what created your god?

3. What functions and properties does your god have that persist beyond the act of creation?

Use your definitions and a logical argument to explain and justify congenital syphilis, tsunami, human sacrifice, jihad, and the Inquisition. 

Hints: Beware of allegations of omnipotence or benign intent. You may compare "just and merciful" with "jealous and vengeful".

[Colin2B]

Robert, I think you are on a hiding for nothing.
Not only are you very unlikely to convince your target audience, but all the definitions I've seen of God place him outside of scientific investigation.
Science can only deal with what can be observed, measured, tested, experimented on.

[puppypower]

One way to address God is to first consider the concept of space-time. At the speed of light, the fabric analogy of space-time will unravel into separated threads of space and time; see below.  When space-time unravels it is no longer integrated space and time.  Rather space threads will exist without time constraint, and time threads will exist without space constraint. Below shows fabric coming undone.



If we move along a space thread, without any integrated constraint of time, we can be in all places at the same time. This is called omnipresence. This is possible since the universe, at the speed of light, appears contracted to a point, allowing us to be everywhere in the inertial universe, by standing on the point.

If we follow a time line; thread, that is not constrained by space, we can know the history of the entire universe at any point along the time line. This is called omniscience. Omnipresence and omniscience are two ancient characteristics of God. The characteristics of omniscience and omnipresence can be derived from the modern concepts of space-time, speed of light and special relativity. The ancients had an answer before the solution.

According to special relativity, mass cannot move at the speed of light, unless there is infinite energy. This means if you had been born in the speed off light reference, you would never know there was such a thing as mass, since mass cannot appear in your reference. The universe would appear as energy; light, but lack mass like substance; spiritual realm. Mass would only be a religious belief that lacks substance; hard to prove. Science, at the speed of light, would have doubts about mass and GR since it can't be seem. This is just like science in inertial reference has doubts about the properties of omni-presence and omniscience at C that are attributed to God.

Since it takes infinite energy for even the smallest amount of mass to move at the speed of light, the appearance of mass in a universe that begins at C; purely spiritual realm, would need to be an act of omnipotence. The ancients appeared to have sensed relativity, but had not yet put this into words. They appeared to have intersected the same time line as Einstein; omniscience.

If you look at the human imagination, it is not constrained, to space-time and the law of physics. I can fly to the moon by flapping my arms in my imagination. Therefore, although not real per se, the imagination allows us to generate omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotent content. I can squish the sun into a blackhole and then spray paint it white in my imagination.

If God is part of the imagination and the imagination can generate information content connected to omnipresence, omnipotent and omniscience, while lacking tangible attributes, the imagination may well be an interface to the C reference. 

 

[PmbPhy]

Which site is this person on? I will happily go hit them with some science and destroy his illusion.

Unfortunately for the OP you're not very good at science. Sorry.

[PmbPhy]

Hi, would like a scientific/philosophical argument on a discussion I am having. Any help greatly appreciated. Cheers

I'll take a shot at it and do the best that I can.

That's great you've managed to created more gaps for God to fill.

Who is this speaking? Is this one entire quote someone you said this to you? If so then what did he mean when he or she said that you've managed to create more gaps for God to fill?

God exists before time and makes His preexistence illogical for He's the source of all energy, time,space and matter.

First of all saying that God existed before time is something that's logically impossible. Second, you can't know what the properties of God are unless you are taking something or some things as an axiom(s). If that's the case then there's nothing to discuss. Either you accept it or you reject it. Argument over. However if you simply assume or define God to be an intelligent being then there are several ways to go along that line. Either he's the God of the Bible or He/She's a being who created humans, or a being who created life on Earth, or who created life in the universe, or created the universe etc. There's a large variety of assumptions that one could start with. But there's no logical reason to assume that God is the source of all energy, space, time and matter unless to postulate it to be so. If that's the case then why argue about it. Where do these postulates come from would be my next question.

All scientific facts still change to meet up with God's word.

That's impossible. Scientific facts are simply that which is observed in nature, nothing more and nothing less.

Today, the prophecies of the Bible are unravelling

Nonsense. People have been saying that the Biblical prophecies have been coming true for centuries. Every generation someone comes along and matches biblical prophecies with natural disasters and claim that it's all coming true when in fact it is all simply someone's opinion, period.

I could go on but you get the drift.

[jeffreyH]

If god is everywhere then god results in infinity which is undefined. Therefore god is undefined. Also as any field approaches god its energy approaches zero. In which case god cannot interact with energy and is irrelevant.

[evan_au]

The Bible says that God created mankind in His image.

Sometimes I get the feeling that mankind wants to create God(s) in his own image.

[syhprum]

I always thought god created mankind as a growth medium for viruses that are his real interest

[puppypower]

The Bible says that God created mankind in His image.

Sometimes I get the feeling that mankind wants to create God(s) in his own image.

Image of God is often misunderstood. Image is not analogous to a photographic image. Rather image is more like a disk image of a hard drive. A disk image will allow us to create the same operating system on another hard drive. This allows two PC's to start off exactly the same, with each customized by use. For example, in the disk image, humans have free will and are able to create and extrapolate creation. In tradition, God created the animals, while humans breed animals to make new breeds. In modern times, we are getting close to making animals from scratch using DNA. It is in our disk image.

Relative to an assembly line of PC's, each PC will the same disk image. As different people use their PC, some will maintain the same  operating systems and keep up with all the updates. Others will only use the PC to surf the web, in questionable places and get internet STD's. These virus can cause the operating system to become erratic until the original disk image no longer appears the same. It has been tainted. This may be why people assume photographic image, since internet VD, does not alter the case.

Philosophically, the concept of God implies an extrapolation of human traits; disk image, to the limit; infinity. For example, humans have knowledge, while God is all knowing. Humans can be strong, but is God omnipotent, etc.

In practical terms, children will naturally copy the behavior of their heroes, whether this is their mom/dad, Babe Ruth or Albert Einstein. When one copies the hero, they will work along a curve toward that limit. It is useful to have a hero, with God placed at the limit of all heroes. Even heroes like Hercules has his own hero; Zeus. Hercules was way along the curve but not at the limit.

If one is lazy, they will not seek to be very far down the hero curve, since the farther you reach the more work it takes. If lazy is good enough, it makes no sense to idolized Einstein. This particular hero requires you try to learn and study the difficult subject of physics. Lazy allows one to truncate the hero curve to a tiny segment, closer to oneself.

God tends to be more important to people who struggle, because they need strength and ability to survive and overcome. This is when the extrapolation to the limit makes the most sense. Even though you will fall short, one can still rise in the attempt.

If life is easy and one thinks they are god; ego-centric, there is not need to rise very far. They will choose heroes, who are more human and closer to themselves, so they can assume they are already near the limit. However, the disk image and operating system of the human brain has a lot of untapped potential, with the limit still eons away. The ego-centric may live in the now, while those who seek the limit of infinity, live in the future.

In Christian tradition, Jesus was considered perfect, which placed him at the limit of the morality curve. Humans will all fall short of this perfection. This means humans begin closer to the origin of that curve. The forgiveness of sins, down plays human imperfections. This is connected to the journey along the curve of perfection toward infinity.

The psychology behind this was, if you tried to work along the curve of perfection to the limit, since each step is new, one will make mistakes; leaning curve. The added mistakes means one will fall ever shorter of perfection. Many will do the math and think it is better to just stay put and deal with your limited imperfections. The forgiveness of sin, meant there will be no imperfection penalty, for making more mistakes and sins, as you move along the curve, toward the limit.

The righteous shall live by faith and not by the law. The prophet has to step outside their own time. This can be seen as blaspheme against the laws of the establishment. Faith and the forgiveness of sin means, you don't need to worry about those sins of learning, as long as you are moving upward. The future is not the same the present and different skill sill be needed.

[smart]

Apart from being a fabulous sex toy, "God" is a pure fabrication of human consciousness to enslave humanity into authoritarian self-discipline and obedience to the holy scriptures. In essence, there's no God or Evil whatsoever. To emancipate from religious thugs and the residual brainwashing of religion is one way to achieve global
happiness and peace on Earth. Only then, we might have the requirements for extraterrestrial life to notice us as a peaceful and intelligent lifeform. 

[David Cooper]

God is not beyond science - he himself can put on his scientist's hat and analyse himself, at which point he must have a complete understanding of himself and all the mechanisms by which he functions. As soon as he realises that everything about him makes full rational sense, there is nothing magical about him - nothing special to mark him out as being more special than any other sentient intelligence or indeed sentient unintelligence. He is just a complex machine which might happen by luck to be the most powerful one in existence, but even there he can't know that he's the top God - there could always be another one at a higher level which he is incapable of knowing about, so he can never prove to himself that he qualifies as God.

[smart]

God is not beyond science - he himself can put on his scientist's hat and analyse himself, at which point he must have a complete understanding of himself and all the mechanisms by which he functions. As soon as he realises that everything about him makes full rational sense, there is nothing magical about him - nothing special to mark him out as being more special than any other sentient intelligence or indeed sentient unintelligence. He is just a complex machine which might happen by luck to be the most powerful one in existence, but even there he can't know that he's the top God - there could always be another one at a higher level which he is incapable of knowing about, so he can never prove to himself that he qualifies as God.

Why do you believe in God?
Religion is a source of deception and conflict for many of us.
Religion broken my family apart.
I find your theological arguments inappropriate in a science forum.
For centuries we searched for the existence of a God and so far there's no proof of its existence anywhere.
The concept of a "God" is ill-defined and highly subjective.
It is perhaps a evolutionary trait of humans to have faith in a God;  and I think we must evolve toward breaking free from this mental slavery.   

[David Cooper]

God is not beyond science - he himself can put on his scientist's hat and analyse himself, at which point he must have a complete understanding of himself and all the mechanisms by which he functions. As soon as he realises that everything about him makes full rational sense, there is nothing magical about him - nothing special to mark him out as being more special than any other sentient intelligence or indeed sentient unintelligence. He is just a complex machine which might happen by luck to be the most powerful one in existence, but even there he can't know that he's the top God - there could always be another one at a higher level which he is incapable of knowing about, so he can never prove to himself that he qualifies as God.

Why do you believe in God?
Religion is a source of deception and conflict for many of us.
Religion broken my family apart.
I find your theological arguments inappropriate in a science forum.
For centuries we searched for the existence of a God and so far there's no proof of its existence anywhere.
The concept of a "God" is ill-defined and highly subjective.
It is perhaps a evolutionary trait of humans to have faith in a God;  and I think we must evolve toward breaking free from this mental slavery.   

What makes you think I believe in God when nothing can qualify as God? God is an irrational idea - he has been disproven. Religion in itself is relatively harmless and it makes people feel good, but sadly most religions have dangerous ideas tied to them that cause bigger problems than they attempt to solve. They are all the work of human philosophers who pretended to speak for God in order to get more people to pay attention to their message, but they always made mistakes, many of them allowing hate speech to creep into their "holy" texts, and that hate generates a lot of terrorism and other abuses.

[smart]

What makes you think I believe in God when nothing can qualify as God? God is an irrational idea - he has been disproven. Religion in itself is relatively harmless and it makes people feel good, but sadly most religions have dangerous ideas tied to them that cause bigger problems than they attempt to solve. They are all the work of human philosophers who pretended to speak for God in order to get more people to pay attention to their message, but they always made mistakes, many of them allowing hate speech to creep into their "holy" texts, and that hate generates a lot of terrorism and other abuses.

Everyone do have faith in a form of "God" or another.
That is why I assume you believe in God existence...
Artificial terrorism is not caused by religion and faith in God per se.

[David Cooper]

Everyone do have faith in a form of "God" or another.
That is why I assume you believe in God existence...

Atheists do not believe in any form of God.

Artificial terrorism is not caused by religion and faith in God per se.

Why describe terrorism as artificial? Most terrorism is driven by the hate speech in the manifestos of ideologies, some of which are religions (and whose manifestos are "holy" texts). Terrorism that doesn't fit into that category is much less common.

[smart]

Atheists do not believe in any form of God.

I believe religion is deeply programmed into the subconscious system and rooted into genetic brain circuits similar to addiction and schizophrenia. Religion is a profound thought disorder; I am consciously an atheist, but my subconscious is entangled with religion subtypes.

Why describe terrorism as artificial? Most terrorism is driven by the hate speech in the manifestos of ideologies, some of which are religions (and whose manifestos are "holy" texts). Terrorism that doesn't fit into that category is much less common.

See: https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=65421

[David Cooper]

"Artificial terrorism" appears to be pro-terrorist propaganda where terrorist supporters blame other people for setting up the terrorist organisations they support. In reality, what happens is that some groups are supported by the West in their opposition to mass-murdering dictators, but they all tend to be extreme as those are the kind of people with the balls to take up guns against despots. It's hard to tell in advance which ones will become ultra-extreme and start killing civilians left, right and centre if they get too powerful, so it sometimes goes badly wrong with them becoming a bigger problem than the one they looked as if they might help solve. The aim of extremists is to blame the West for everything and trick the simple-minded into opposing all well-intended interventions.

[jacknana]

As I read on Google, the true God is the Creator of all things. He had no beginning and will never have an end. He is the Source of the good news found in the Bible. Since God gave us life, we should worship only him.—Read Revelation 4:11. No human has ever seen God because he is a Spirit, which means that he is a higher form of life than the physical creatures who live on earth. Nevertheless, we can discern God’s personality from the things he has made. For instance, the variety of fruits and flowers tells us of his love and wisdom. The size of the universe tells us of his power.