Naked Science Forum

Life Sciences => Cells, Microbes & Viruses => Topic started by: Quantum_Vaccuum on 24/09/2007 05:15:59

Title: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Quantum_Vaccuum on 24/09/2007 05:15:59
I have heard some rumors of Tuberculosis becoming immune to the vaccinations that are given to us today, is this true?
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: another_someone on 24/09/2007 13:53:12
Quote from: Quantum_Vaccuum on 24/09/2007 05:15:59
I have heard some rumors of Tuberculosis becoming immune to the vaccinations that are given to us today, is this true?

This is partly true.

As I understand it, tuberculosis vaccines were never 100% effective, but they have not become any less effective over time.

Some strains of TB have become resistant to antibiotics,  so those people who do become infected are now more difficult to treat.

There is the additional problem of a significant sub population who now have compromised immune systems (people who are suffering from AIDS, or people on immunosuppresents because they are recipients of transplanted organs).  For these people, even if they had received vaccines, the vaccines would be compromised because they rely on a properly functioning immune system.  This is the group of people who are presently at highest risk from TB.
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Quantum_Vaccuum on 24/09/2007 23:42:22
Quote from: another_someone on 24/09/2007 13:53:12

As I understand it, tuberculosis vaccines were never 100% effective, but they have not become any less effective over time.

Some strains of TB have become resistant to antibiotics,  so those people who do become infected are now more difficult to treat.

Just clarification, is TB a bacteria or a virus?
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: another_someone on 25/09/2007 00:20:09
Quote from: Quantum_Vaccuum on 24/09/2007 23:42:22
Just clarification, is TB a bacteria or a virus?

Bacteria (which is why we have used antibiotics to treat it).
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: paul.fr on 25/09/2007 08:38:01
Aren't the increased cases in the UK being blamed on migration? Or is this just media scare stories?
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: another_someone on 25/09/2007 14:16:35
Quote from: paul.fr on 25/09/2007 08:38:01
Aren't the increased cases in the UK being blamed on migration? Or is this just media scare stories?

I think there is en element of this.

Firstly, outside of the major risk groups (homosexuals, intravenous drug users, haemophiliacs), then next largest risk group for HIV itself are recent immigrants.

Secondly, immigrants from some areas of the world have not habitually been vaccinated against TB (or many other diseases for which vaccines are commonly administered during childhood in this country).

Thirdly, immigrants often live in more crowded conditions than the average native population (not necessarily more so than the most deprived of the native population, but typically more so than the average), and this provides a good breeding ground for many diseases, not least for TB.
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 25/09/2007 16:34:03
Another source is people returning from 3rd world countries who had not been priorly inocculated. This group has been increasing substantially with the advent of cheaper air travel & exotic holidays.
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: another_someone on 25/09/2007 16:44:32
Quote from: DoctorBeaver on 25/09/2007 16:34:03
Another source is people returning from 3rd world countries who had not been priorly inocculated. This group has been increasing substantially with the advent of cheaper air travel & exotic holidays.

Although this is the case for many diseases, I thought it was less the case for TB.

Firstly, the level of takeup of inoculation for TB I believe is fairly high in this country.

Secondly, as I understand it (and maybe I will be corrected in my understanding), TB is not that easy to acquire (probably easier to acquire from drinking infected milk) - and for human to human contact would generally require a significant amount of time in close proximity with the infected person.
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: DoctorBeaver on 25/09/2007 19:09:00
Quote from: another_someone on 25/09/2007 16:44:32
Quote from: DoctorBeaver on 25/09/2007 16:34:03
Another source is people returning from 3rd world countries who had not been priorly inocculated. This group has been increasing substantially with the advent of cheaper air travel & exotic holidays.

Although this is the case for many diseases, I thought it was less the case for TB.

Firstly, the level of takeup of inoculation for TB I believe is fairly high in this country.

Secondly, as I understand it (and maybe I will be corrected in my understanding), TB is not that easy to acquire (probably easier to acquire from drinking infected milk) - and for human to human contact would generally require a significant amount of time in close proximity with the infected person.

That's not my understanding of the situation. I'll try to look into it further.
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: iko on 25/09/2007 21:48:27
Tuberculosis bacterial strains are becoming more and more resistant to standard chemotherapy.
Hygienic standards and social condition (poverty, malnutrition etc.) seem to make the real difference and allow the slow rise of these dreadful pathogens.
In the old days a drop of TB cases was observed either in vaccinated or unvaccinated populations, at the same rate, when health conditions had been simultaneously improved.

ikod
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Quantum_Vaccuum on 26/09/2007 00:08:27
Quote from: another_someone on 25/09/2007 16:44:32
Although this is the case for many diseases, I thought it was less the case for TB.

Firstly, the level of takeup of inoculation for TB I believe is fairly high in this country.

Secondly, as I understand it (and maybe I will be corrected in my understanding), TB is not that easy to acquire (probably easier to acquire from drinking infected milk) - and for human to human contact would generally require a significant amount of time in close proximity with the infected person.


How could there be infected milk? Like the tuberculosis milk?
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: another_someone on 26/09/2007 01:36:24
Quote from: Quantum_Vaccuum on 26/09/2007 00:08:27
How could there be infected milk? Like the tuberculosis milk?

Cows can be infected by TB, and this can be passed on through their milk.  This used to be a problem in the 19th century, but now cattle with TB must be slaughtered (this caused a political turmoil recently as the government forced a Hindu sect to kill their sacred bull because it had TB), but most importantly, it was the mandatory pasteurisation of milk that stopped TB being passed on in milk.
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Quantum_Vaccuum on 26/09/2007 01:46:07
is there any other "main" way that tuberculosis is passed around?
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: another_someone on 26/09/2007 19:15:45
Quote from: Quantum_Vaccuum on 26/09/2007 01:46:07
is there any other "main" way that tuberculosis is passed around?

The primary means that I am aware of these days is through breathing in aerosol droplets from an infected person, but this is not a very efficient way of transmitting the disease, which is why you need to be in close confinement with an infected person for a prolonged period of time (e.g. living in crowded conditions with an infected person).  Ofcourse, there are always the laws of probability, and you may easily catch the disease, or it might be very much more difficult.

The other problem is that even when you have caught the disease, you may be symptomless for many years, or may even live out your life with ever showing any symptoms of the disease, or may show symptoms in adulthood after having caught the disease as a child (again, the more stressful your environment, the more likely you are to display symptoms).  The long incubation time makes it impractical to manage the disease simply through quarantine measures.
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Quantum_Vaccuum on 27/09/2007 03:05:38
o wow, that is really harsh conditions, how did the disease first strike? Like was it a mutant cow or something?
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: another_someone on 27/09/2007 13:57:10
Quote from: Quantum_Vaccuum on 27/09/2007 03:05:38
o wow, that is really harsh conditions, how did the disease first strike? Like was it a mutant cow or something?

There is still much debate as to whether the cows themselves can get it from badgers (the disease is rife amongst badgers).

It is a disease that has been with humans as far back as records go, and as far as I am aware nobody has yet done the research that might answer the question as to where in may have come from in the antiquity of time.
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: iko on 27/09/2007 15:19:25
Hi TBscaredfans,

I must add that bacteria infecting cows are different from those affecting human beings:  Mycobacterium bovis versus Mycobacterium tuberculosis. 


from:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuberculosis
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: another_someone on 27/09/2007 16:41:26
Quote from: iko on 27/09/2007 15:19:25
Hi TBscaredfans,

I must add that bacteria infecting cows are different from those affecting human beings:  Mycobacterium bovis versus Mycobacterium tuberculosis. 


from:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuberculosis

But:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycobacterium_bovis
Quote
M. bovis is usually transmitted to humans via infected milk, although it can also spread via aerosol droplets. Actual infections in humans are rare, mostly due to pasteurisation killing any bacteria in infected milk; as well, cattle are randomly tested for the disease and immediately destroyed if infected. However, in areas of the developing world where pasteurisation is not routine, M. bovis is a relatively common cause of human tuberculosis.

So the distinction that M. Bovis is not infectious to humans does not exist - both forms do infect humans, but M.Bovis is now managed through pasteurised milk.
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: iko on 27/09/2007 17:10:06
Quote from: another_someone on 27/09/2007 16:41:26
Quote from: iko on 27/09/2007 15:19:25
Hi TBscaredfans,

I must add that bacteria infecting cows are different from those affecting human beings:  Mycobacterium bovis versus Mycobacterium tuberculosis. 


from:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuberculosis

But:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycobacterium_bovis
Quote
M. bovis is usually transmitted to humans via infected milk, although it can also spread via aerosol droplets. Actual infections in humans are rare, mostly due to pasteurisation killing any bacteria in infected milk; as well, cattle are randomly tested for the disease and immediately destroyed if infected. However, in areas of the developing world where pasteurisation is not routine, M. bovis is a relatively common cause of human tuberculosis.

So the distinction that M. Bovis is not infectious to humans does not exist - both forms do infect humans, but M.Bovis is now managed through pasteurised milk.

Yes George,

my point tended to concentrate on human TB.
As you wrote, the infection from milk and bovines has almost disappeared.
Epidemiology of TB is now restricted to inter-human infections.
I think that our discussant, QV, meant TB infection in developed countries.
Mixing these two 'epidemics' is a bit confusing, in my opinion.

ikod
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: another_someone on 27/09/2007 18:38:36
Quote from: iko on 27/09/2007 17:10:06
Yes George,

my point tended to concentrate on human TB.
As you wrote, the infection from milk and bovines has almost disappeared.
Epidemiology of TB is now restricted to inter-human infections.
I think that our discussant, QV, meant TB infection in developed countries.
Mixing these two 'epidemics' is a bit confusing, in my opinion.

ikod

I did say myself that bovine TB was a major cause in the 19th century, and not contemporary.

On the other hand, as Paul also mentioned, we do see TB in immigrants, and that could easily be from a country where bovine TB remains a risk.
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: iko on 27/09/2007 22:00:01
You're right as usual, George.

Now let me remind that: "Even dealing with TB, never forget vitamin D"
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070514140525.htm
from the Imperial College of London, 5/2007

Never mind, it is my duty around here!  [;D]

ikod



Quote from: iko on 23/11/2006 23:35:40
Quackery...revisited in 2006!

This comes out crossing "cod liver oil" and Quackery on Google Images!


(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lung.ca%2Ftb%2Fimages%2Ffull_archive%2F006_codLiverOil.jpg&hash=ab69c998b71e9d651a87d5b572202eb4)
http://www.lung.ca/tb/images/full_archive/006_codLiverOil.jpg
...Near the beginning of TB treatment in sanatoria, it became known that the sun helped to kill TB bacteria (see heliotherapy). When the Sun's UV rays hit human skin, vitamin D is produced. Naturally, when cod fish were found to be rich in vitamin D, it followed that their oil was sold as "liquid sunshine" (this was a real advertisement in the Valley Echo, March 1944). Cod Liver Oil is still used in "traditional" medicine today, and as an important dietary supplement, but no real evidence exists that it helps to cure tuberculosis.

http://www.lung.ca/tb/tbhistory/treatment/

...NO real evidence? Let's cross quickly "Tuberculosis and vitamin d" on PubMed database...




Toll-like receptor triggering of a vitamin D-mediated human antimicrobial response.

Liu PT, Stenger S, Li H et al.
In innate immune responses, activation of Toll-like receptors (TLRs) triggers direct antimicrobial activity against intracellular bacteria, which in murine, but not human, monocytes and macrophages is mediated principally by nitric oxide. We report here that TLR activation of human macrophages up-regulated expression of the vitamin D receptor and the vitamin D-1-hydroxylase genes, leading to induction of the antimicrobial peptide cathelicidin and killing of intracellular Mycobacterium tuberculosis. We also observed that sera from African-American individuals, known to have increased susceptibility to tuberculosis, had low 25-hydroxyvitamin D and were inefficient in supporting cathelicidin messenger RNA induction. These data support a link between TLRs and vitamin D-mediated innate immunity and suggest that differences in ability of human populations to produce vitamin D may contribute to susceptibility to microbial infection.
Science. 2006 Mar 24;311(5768):1770-3. Epub 2006 Feb 23.




The effect of vitamin D as supplementary treatment
 in patients with moderately advanced pulmonary tuberculous lesion.
Nursyam EW, Amin Z, Rumended CM.
Dept.Int.Med.University of Indonesia-dr.Cipto Mangunkusumo Hospital, Jakarta.

AIM: to compare the vitamin D group of pulmonary tuberculosis patients with a placebo group in terms of clinical improvement, nutritional status, sputum conversion, and radiological improvement. METHODS: sixty seven tuberculosis patient visiting the Pulmonary Clinic, of Cipto Mangunkusumo Hospital, Jakarta, from January 1st to August 31st, 2001 were included in this study. The subjects were randomised to receive vitamin D (0.25 mg/day) or placebo in a double blind method, during the 6th initial week of Tb treatment. The rate of sputum conversion, complete blood counts, blood chemistry as well as radiologic examination were evaluated. RESULTS: there were more male patients than females (39:28), 78.7% were in the productive age group, 71.6% had low nutritional status, 62.4% with low education level, and 67.2% with low income. One hundred percent of the vitamin D group and only 76.7% of the placebo group had sputum conversion. This difference is statistically significant (p=0.002). CONCLUSION: the sputum conversion had no correlation with the hemoglobin level, blood clotting time, calcium level, lymphocyte count, age, sex, and nutritional status. There were more subjects with radiological improvement in the vitamin D group.

Acta Med Indones. 2006 Jan-Mar;38(1):3-5.


Prevalence and associations of vitamin D deficiency in foreign-born persons with tuberculosis in London.
Ustianowski A, Shaffer R, Collin S, Wilkinson RJ, Davidson RN.
Dept.Infect.Trop.Med.- Northwick Park Hospital, Harrow, Middlesex HA1 3UJ, UK. ustianowski@doctors.org.uk

OBJECTIVES: The incidence of tuberculosis (TB) is high amongst foreign-born persons resident in developed countries. Vitamin D is important in the host defence against TB in vitro and deficiency may be an acquired risk factor for this disease. We aimed to determine the incidence and associations of vitamin D deficiency in TB patients diagnosed at an infectious diseases unit in London, UK. METHODS: Case-note analysis of 210 unselected patients diagnosed with TB who had plasma vitamin D (25(OH)D3) levels routinely measured. Prevalence of 25(OH)D3 deficiency and its relationship to ethnic origin, religion, site of TB, sex, age, duration in the UK, month of 25(OH)D3 estimation and TB diagnosis were determined. RESULTS: Of 210 patients 76% were 25(OH)D3 deficient and 56% had undetectable levels. 70/82 Indian, 24/28 East African Asian, 29/34 Somali, 14/19 Pakistani and Afghani, 16/22 Sri Lankan and 2/6 other African patients were deficient (with 58, 17, 23, 9, 6 and 1 having undetectable levels, respectively). Only 0/6 white Europeans and 1/8 Chinese/South East Asians had low plasma 25(OH)D3 levels. Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs all had equivalent rates of deficiency though Hindus were more likely to have undetectable levels (odds ratio 1.87, 95% CI 1.27-2.76). There was no significant association between 25(OH)D3 level and site of TB or duration of residence in the UK. There was no apparent seasonal variation in either TB diagnosis or 25(OH)D3 level. CONCLUSIONS: 25(OH)D3 deficiency commonly associates with TB among all ethnic groups apart from white Europeans, and Chinese/South East Asians. Our data support a lack of sunlight exposure and potentially a vegetarian diet as contributors to this deficiency.

J Infect. 2005 Jun;50(5):432-7.



Those nurses and doctors should be proud and rest in peace.
They gave cod liver oil to their TB patients for years
without any controlled study or scientific evidence,
wisely adopting the old "ex-adjuvantibus" criteria.
They did just the right thing to do in those days
when treatments available were unsatisfactory
and only some patients recovered completely.
Evidence is slowly coming out
more than fifty years later.

ikod

(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.prolocoborno.it%2Ffoto%2Fimg%2Fsm-giallo.jpg&hash=d0ea84530a75b2cce388253fe53ffdc2)
http://www.prolocoborno.it/foto/img/sm-giallo.jpg
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lung.ca%2Ftb%2Fimages%2Ffull_archive%2F081_sun_treatment.jpg&hash=c437f1f6d2c72006f32ec0e049f264c4)
http://www.lung.ca/tb/images/full_archive/081_sun_treatment.jpg

Before the availability of drugs that successfully cured the body of tubercular infections, a widely accepted treatment for non-pulmonary tuberculosis was sunbathing. The sun had sometimes been blamed for increased activity in tubercular infection of the lungs and was therefore not used to treat this form of tuberculosis. However, the Sun offered several curative properties to those suffering from other types of tuberculosis. Sun treatment was used in the treatment of tuberculosis of the glands, bones, joints, peritoneum, skin, eyes, genito-urinary tract, and others.

There were several reasons for the prescription of sun treatment to tuberculosis patients. First of all, the sun acts as a bactericide, killing the Tubercular bacillus organisms that cause the disease. Exposure to moderately hot temperatures for extended periods of time is sufficient to kill off these bacteria and clear up infections. Furthermore, ergosterol, present in the skin in converted by the sun’s UV rays into vitamin D, which was thought to do further damage to the TB bacilli.
 
Sunlamps like the ones pictured here were often used to replace natural sunlight in sun-therapy, or "heliotherapy" for tuberculosis (ca. 1925).

(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.tiscalinet.ch%2Fbiografien%2Fimages%2Fkoch.jpg&hash=2f483841a8cbf5735d240bd388a85072)   (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lung.ca%2Ftb%2Fimages%2F061_sun_lamps.jpg&hash=28b31fd233242b7b94192cffc6d04033)   (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mmaonline.net%2FPublications%2FMNMed2005%2FNovember%2FImages%2Fsun.gif&hash=844fef17c08a93edd025a83988db07bf)

http://home.tiscalinet.ch/biografien/images/koch.jpg
http://www.lung.ca/tb/images/061_sun_lamps.jpg
http://www.mmaonline.net/Publications/MNMed2005/November/Images/sun.gif





"Il sole dona la vita, il sole se la riprende" M.U. Dianzani 1975.
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Quantum_Vaccuum on 27/09/2007 23:17:57
wait, let me get this right, so TB originated from badgers?
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: another_someone on 28/09/2007 01:30:55
Quote from: Quantum_Vaccuum on 27/09/2007 23:17:57
wait, let me get this right, so TB originated from badgers?

I don't think we actually know (I would not even be sure that cows, humans, and badgers, forms the entire list of species affected by TB).

Badgers are a risk to cows because they can move from field to field, so they can get infected by a cow in one field, and then pass the infection on to a cow in another field.  We don't know which got it first (or if they both got it from somewhere else).
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Quantum_Vaccuum on 29/09/2007 07:24:08
so wouldn't other small mammals also be a big cause to TB?
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: another_someone on 29/09/2007 14:32:40
Quote from: Quantum_Vaccuum on 29/09/2007 07:24:08
so wouldn't other small mammals also be a big cause to TB?

There is no reason it should be limited to small mammals (although I suppose in the highly managed environments of Europe, small mammals tend to get around more); but as I said above, I don't actually know which other species are susceptible (although I did see reference to some variants of TB affecting voles).

One interesting issue is that the bacteria that causes TB is closely related to the bacteria that causes leprosy.

Reading background to this, I noticed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontuberculous_mycobacteria
Quote
Over the past 25 years, there has been a dramatic increase in the number of NTM cases seen by clinicians across the United States and Canada.

The correct name of NTM is "nontuberculous mycobacteria." There is no such bacteria called "nontuberculosis microbacteria."
Mycobacteria are a family of small, rod-shaped bacilli that can be classified into 3 main groups for the purpose of diagnosis and treatment:

  • Mycobacterium tuberculosis complex which can cause tuberculosis: M. tuberculosis, M. bovis, M. africanum, , M. microti and M. canetti.
  • M. leprae which causes Hansen's disease or leprosy.
  • Nontuberculous mycobacteria (NTM) are all the other mycobacteria which can cause pulmonary disease resembling tuberculosis, lymphadenitis, skin disease, or disseminated disease. Pulmonary NTM infections include: MAC (mycobacterium avian complex), which includes M. avium and M. intracellulare; faster-growing M. abscessus, M. chelonae, and M. fortuitum; and less common strains such as M. kansasii and M. xenopi.

Unlike TB and leprosy, which are primarily spread by human-to-human contact, NTM is believed to be contracted from the environment, hence its alternative label, "environmental bacteria." NTM is believed to exist naturally in soil and water.
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: iko on 29/09/2007 14:52:04
Yeah, atypical Mycobacteria
are between the 'fastidious'
germs I am so much fond of...
They are not 'returning' at
all, they have been around
us all the time!


(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.humanillnesses.com%2Fimages%2Fhdc_0001_0001_0_img0067.jpg&hash=f3d4f235b52fcd669376bff065f68497) (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scielo.br%2Fimg%2Frevistas%2Fbabt%2Fv47n6%2Fa14fig04.gif&hash=78d1da0a0e0c7863dc4ef4c6a4f945e9)  (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acquaportal.it%2F_ARCHIVIO%2FARTICOLI%2FDanilo_ronchi%2Fimages%2Fpanoramica-01.jpg&hash=bc79fb63b7c1fef85c9a206d5efc14ff) 

http://www.humanillnesses.com/images/hdc_0001_0001_0_img0067.jpg
http://www.scielo.br/img/revistas/babt/v47n6/a14fig04.gif
http://www.acquaportal.it/_ARCHIVIO/ARTICOLI/Danilo_ronchi/images/panoramica-01.jpg

Exposure to Mycobacterium marinum can lead to a rare infection known as swimming pool granuloma" or "aquarium granuloma." About 3 weeks after the bacteria enters through a break in the skin, usually on the hands, reddish bumps appear. This infection can be prevented by avoiding contact with contaminated water and wearing gloves or washing thoroughly when cleaning aquariums.
Custom Medical Stock Photo, Inc.

more about atypical mycobacteria:

 
http://www.humanillnesses.com/Infectious-Diseases-He-My/Mycobacterial-Infections-Atypical.html




Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Quantum_Vaccuum on 29/09/2007 18:42:05
Quote from: another_someone on 29/09/2007 14:32:40
Quote from: Quantum_Vaccuum on 29/09/2007 07:24:08
so wouldn't other small mammals also be a big cause to TB?

There is no reason it should be limited to small mammals (although I suppose in the highly managed environments of Europe, small mammals tend to get around more); but as I said above, I don't actually know which other species are susceptible (although I did see reference to some variants of TB affecting voles).

One interesting issue is that the bacteria that causes TB is closely related to the bacteria that causes leprosy.

Reading background to this, I noticed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontuberculous_mycobacteria
Quote
Over the past 25 years, there has been a dramatic increase in the number of NTM cases seen by clinicians across the United States and Canada.

The correct name of NTM is "nontuberculous mycobacteria." There is no such bacteria called "nontuberculosis microbacteria."
Mycobacteria are a family of small, rod-shaped bacilli that can be classified into 3 main groups for the purpose of diagnosis and treatment:

  • Mycobacterium tuberculosis complex which can cause tuberculosis: M. tuberculosis, M. bovis, M. africanum, , M. microti and M. canetti.
  • M. leprae which causes Hansen's disease or leprosy.
  • Nontuberculous mycobacteria (NTM) are all the other mycobacteria which can cause pulmonary disease resembling tuberculosis, lymphadenitis, skin disease, or disseminated disease. Pulmonary NTM infections include: MAC (mycobacterium avian complex), which includes M. avium and M. intracellulare; faster-growing M. abscessus, M. chelonae, and M. fortuitum; and less common strains such as M. kansasii and M. xenopi.

Unlike TB and leprosy, which are primarily spread by human-to-human contact, NTM is believed to be contracted from the environment, hence its alternative label, "environmental bacteria." NTM is believed to exist naturally in soil and water.

my friend is researching TB for a science report, and he told me that any mammal is capibile of having TB =[
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Quantum_Vaccuum on 29/09/2007 18:43:39
Quote from: iko on 29/09/2007 14:52:04
Yeah, atypical Mycobacteria
are between the 'fastidious'
germs I am so much fond of...
They are not 'returning' at
all, they have been around us all the time!


so are they just becoming more resistant to our immunes and vaccinations?

Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: iko on 29/09/2007 21:33:05
Quote from: iko on 25/09/2007 21:48:27
Tuberculosis bacterial strains are becoming more and more resistant to standard chemotherapy.
Hygienic standards and social condition (poverty, malnutrition etc.) seem to make the real difference and allow the slow rise of these dreadful pathogens.
In the old days a drop of TB cases was observed either in vaccinated or unvaccinated populations, at the same rate, when health conditions had been simultaneously improved.

ikod

As I wrote before, vaccination has big limits in TB.
This type of bacteria interacts with the defense system in such a peculiar way that an healthy lifestyle (proper food, hygienic standards) might(*) play a major role in keeping this pathogen under control.
Immunodeficient patients (AIDS) are at risk and a sort of reservoir for this germ.
Poverty, promiscuity and lack of hygienic facilities in underdeveloped countries are contributing to the new epidemics.  Obviously some strains of TB bacteria became resistant to specific drugs that had been used over the years, and this is a problem for affected patients.
For the whole population -as it was in the old days- prevention and isolation of infectious patients are the most important presidia against TB.
New drugs are under investigation.
Old stuff is being 'rediscovered': vitamin D (cod liver oil had been used in TB patients) may help over weeks and months, preventing reactivation or supporting standard treatment of TB sufferers.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070514140525.htm
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=5065.0

ikod

(*)'might' here stands for:
"I'm not a professor, this is just a chat, plus I learned English from a book!"  [;D]
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: jordan23 on 19/10/2007 17:45:21
Another source is people returning from 3rd world countries who had not been priorly inocculated.
mobile TV (http://www.pqdvd.com/windows-mobile-tv.html)
pocket pc TV (http://www.pqdvd.com/windows-mobile-tv.html)
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: iko on 20/10/2007 09:42:33
from:  http://www.who.int/vaccine_research/diseases/tb/vaccine_development/bcg/en/index.html

BCG - the current vaccine for tuberculosis

Bacille Calmette Guerin (BCG) is the current vaccine for tuberculosis. It was first used in 1921. BCG is the only vaccine available today for protection against tuberculosis. It is most effective in protecting children from the disease.

History of the vaccine
Bacille Calmette Guerin (BCG) containes a live attenuated (weakened) strain of Mycobacterium bovis. It was originally isolated from a cow with tuberculosis by Calmette and Guren who worked in Paris at the Institute Pasteur. This strain was carefully subcultured every three weeks for many years. After about thirteen years the strain was seen to be less virulent for animals such as cows and guinea pigs. During these thirteen years many undefined genetic changes occurred to change the original stain of M. bovis. This altered organism was called BCG. In addition to the loss of virulence, other changes to BCG were noted. These included a pronounced change in the appearance of colonies grown in the laboratory. Colonies of M. bovis have a rough granular appearance whereas colonies of BCG are moist and smooth.

Today there are several strains of “BCG”.
BCG was first used as a vaccine to protect humans against tuberculosis in 1921. At first, cultures of BCG were maintained in Paris. Later, it was subcultured and distributed to several laboratories throughout the world where the vaccine strain called BCG continued to be maintained by continuous subculture. After many years it became clear that the various strains maintained ain different laboratories were no longer identical to each other. Indeed, it was likely that all the various strains maintained by continuous subculture continued to undergo undefined genetic changes. Indeed, the "original" strain of BCG maintained at in Paris had continued to change during the subcultures needed to maintain the viability of the culture. To limit these continuing changes the procedures needed to maintain the strain were modified. Today, the organism is maintained in several laboratories using a "seed lot" production technique to limit further genetic variation using freeze-dried (also called lyphilized) cells so that each batch starts with the same cells.

SafetyAfter extensive tests in animals, BCG was first used as a vaccine in 1921. It was given orally to infants. Since this time the vaccine has been widely used. Today, it is estimated that more than 1 billion people have received BCG.

BCG is widely used and the safety of this vaccine has not been a serious issue until recently. There is a concern that use of the vaccine in persons who are immune compromised may result is an infection caused by the BCG itself. Also, even among immune competent persons, local reactions, including ulceration at the site of vaccination may result in shedding of live organisms which could infect others who may be immune compromised.

The early use of BCG was marked by a tragic accident. In Lubeck more than 25% of the approximately 250 infants who received a batch of the vaccine developed tuberculosis. It was later recognized that this batch was accidentally contaminated with a virulent strain of M. tuberculosis.

BCG production and substrains
The BCG vaccines that are currently in use are produced at several (seven?) sites throughout the world. These vaccines are not identical. To what extent they differ in efficacy and safety in humans is not clear at present. Some differences in molecular and genetic characteristics are known. What is not known is if the "BCG" from one manufacturer is "better" than one produced at another site. Each BCG is now know by the location where it is produced. For example, we have BCG (Paris), BCG (Copenhagen), BCG (Tice) and BCG (Montreal) among others.


Quote from: jordan23 on 19/10/2007 17:45:21
Another source is people returning from 3rd world countries who had not been priorly inocculated.mobile TV (http://www.pqdvd.com/windows-mobile-tv.html)
pocket pc TV (http://www.pqdvd.com/windows-mobile-tv.html)

It is not so easy.
Malnourished children and adults living in precarious hygienic condition may have lower immune defenses and cannot be vaccinated safely against TB.


Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Seany on 31/03/2008 22:53:29
Hi..

I know someone who has recently gotten Tuberculosis.. God knows how.
They are only about 7-8 years old.
We are all very curious as to how he got it..
I was wondering what the symptoms were?

He needs to get treated for over 6 months, 2 pills everyday.
And his little sister 5-6 years old has also got it off him, pretty easily.

I am curious of the symtoms, and whether it is dangerous for his age?
And whether it really does take 6 months for this treatment?
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Karen W. on 01/04/2008 00:35:07
I have heard that treatment is long!.. I wonder if the treatment is efficient to rid them of it or do they only treat symptoms... can they get rid of it completely???

I heard that back New York way they had several cases back there also!

So it never really went away eh?
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Karen W. on 01/04/2008 00:37:32
Quote from: iko on 29/09/2007 14:52:04
Yeah, atypical Mycobacteria
are between the 'fastidious'
germs I am so much fond of...
They are not 'returning' at
all, they have been around
us all the time!


(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.humanillnesses.com%2Fimages%2Fhdc_0001_0001_0_img0067.jpg&hash=f3d4f235b52fcd669376bff065f68497) (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scielo.br%2Fimg%2Frevistas%2Fbabt%2Fv47n6%2Fa14fig04.gif&hash=78d1da0a0e0c7863dc4ef4c6a4f945e9)  (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acquaportal.it%2F_ARCHIVIO%2FARTICOLI%2FDanilo_ronchi%2Fimages%2Fpanoramica-01.jpg&hash=bc79fb63b7c1fef85c9a206d5efc14ff) 

http://www.humanillnesses.com/images/hdc_0001_0001_0_img0067.jpg
http://www.scielo.br/img/revistas/babt/v47n6/a14fig04.gif
http://www.acquaportal.it/_ARCHIVIO/ARTICOLI/Danilo_ronchi/images/panoramica-01.jpg

Exposure to Mycobacterium marinum can lead to a rare infection known as swimming pool granuloma" or "aquarium granuloma." About 3 weeks after the bacteria enters through a break in the skin, usually on the hands, reddish bumps appear. This infection can be prevented by avoiding contact with contaminated water and wearing gloves or washing thoroughly when cleaning aquariums.
Custom Medical Stock Photo, Inc.

more about atypical mycobacteria:

 
http://www.humanillnesses.com/Infectious-Diseases-He-My/Mycobacterial-Infections-Atypical.html






Yikes are those lesions from the  disease?
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Karen W. on 01/04/2008 00:40:17
I was immunized as a child. Can someone get the disease latter without re immunization or is that permanent protection??
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: another_someone on 01/04/2008 03:04:12
Quote from: Karen W. on 01/04/2008 00:40:17
I was immunized as a child. Can some one get the disease latter without reimmunization or is that permanent protection??

I believe the immunisation does wear off after a time, but it will give a degree of permanent protection, but reduced protection as time progresses.
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Karen W. on 01/04/2008 03:10:03
Thanks George.. do you know if they offer a second TB shot as one reaches older ages?
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: another_someone on 01/04/2008 03:12:21
Quote from: Seany on 31/03/2008 22:53:29
Hi..

I know someone who has recently gotten Tuberculosis.. God knows how.
They are only about 7-8 years old.
We are all very curious as to how he got it..
I was wondering what the symptoms were?

He needs to get treated for over 6 months, 2 pills everyday.
And his little sister 5-6 years old has also got it off him, pretty easily.

I am curious of the symtoms, and whether it is dangerous for his age?
And whether it really does take 6 months for this treatment?

Generally, TB is considered not that easy to catch - it usually is only contagious in between people who are in close proximity to each other for a long time (which is why it was usually considered a disease that was prominent amongst people living in crowded environments).

The problem is that it is a slow growing bacteria, so it can take many years before you actually get any symptoms.  Mostly the disease remains dormant, and you can be infected for decades without knowing it, but if you are run down, or your immune system is compromised (maybe caused by malnourishment, or some other illness), then the TB that has been dormant can get a grip.

It is because it is slow growing that it is not easy to catch, but if you do catch it, it can be pretty stubborn and can take a long time to get rid of.

There are different types of TB, and some are more common in non-humans, but can spread to humans (this used to be a problem with drinking unpasteurised milk, where you could get bovine TB).
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: another_someone on 01/04/2008 03:14:02
Quote from: Karen W. on 01/04/2008 03:10:03
Thanks George.. do you know if they offer a second TB shot as one reaches older ages?

Have not heard of anything - but until relatively recently, the feeling was that TB was becoming less of a threat, and so maybe it was felt the boosters would not be needed.
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Seany on 01/04/2008 14:12:24
Quote from: another_someone on 01/04/2008 03:12:21
Quote from: Seany on 31/03/2008 22:53:29
Hi..

I know someone who has recently gotten Tuberculosis.. God knows how.
They are only about 7-8 years old.
We are all very curious as to how he got it..
I was wondering what the symptoms were?

He needs to get treated for over 6 months, 2 pills everyday.
And his little sister 5-6 years old has also got it off him, pretty easily.

I am curious of the symtoms, and whether it is dangerous for his age?
And whether it really does take 6 months for this treatment?

Generally, TB is considered not that easy to catch - it usually is only contagious in between people who are in close proximity to each other for a long time (which is why it was usually considered a disease that was prominent amongst people living in crowded environments).

The problem is that it is a slow growing bacteria, so it can take many years before you actually get any symptoms.  Mostly the disease remains dormant, and you can be infected for decades without knowing it, but if you are run down, or your immune system is compromised (maybe caused by malnourishment, or some other illness), then the TB that has been dormant can get a grip.

It is because it is slow growing that it is not easy to catch, but if you do catch it, it can be pretty stubborn and can take a long time to get rid of.

There are different types of TB, and some are more common in non-humans, but can spread to humans (this used to be a problem with drinking unpasteurised milk, where you could get bovine TB).

I am pretty sure it's not about drinking unpasteurised milk that he got TB..
It might be that he's had TB for a while, but have never shown symptoms and it may have just appeared because he might be under a lot of stress. He is currently taking piano, violin, and english lessons as well as school everyday. (It's Korea I tell you.. Everyone attends classes after school, most people my age come back home at about 12 at night)

But his sister seemed to catch it pretty easily from him. We are worried their parents are going to catch it too.
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/04/2008 21:29:54
His parents were probably vaccinated when they were young and also they probably have a more robust immune system. They might catch it, but it's no suprise it got his sister rather than his parents.
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Seany on 01/04/2008 22:28:49
Right..
How come the treatment is a simple pill every day for 6 months?
Would this get rid of it completely?
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: iko on 02/04/2008 13:00:25
If you want to learn more...
go to a proper scientific website:

http://nobelprize.org/educational_games/medicine/tuberculosis/readmore.html
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Seany on 02/04/2008 13:28:53
Thanks ikoD
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: iko on 02/04/2008 13:33:34
You welcome Hurricane

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/893/
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Seany on 02/04/2008 13:56:13
YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: JimBob on 02/04/2008 22:57:31
I have a friend who had to go the the VA (Veterans Administration) hospital for some long term care for an intestinal problem. While there he contracted TB  - he was on 3 drugs for over a year and they are still not sure that he will ever be free of the microbe.

 
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Seany on 02/04/2008 23:12:58
That is worrying..
Is this because TB is now immune to antibiotics??
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: iko on 03/04/2008 18:24:22
Quote from: Seany on 02/04/2008 23:12:58
That is worrying..
Is this because TB is now immune to antibiotics??

Indeed Seany.     http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/893/
Title: Re: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: Seany on 03/04/2008 21:08:36
So there currently isn't a treatment for it??
Title: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: iko on 10/04/2008 15:12:30
Quote from: Seany on 03/04/2008 21:08:36
So there currently isn't a treatment for it??

indeed...it's more or less as devastating as a hurricane!   [;)]

Quote
...
Chris - What’s the long-term prognosis here with TB? The numbers look pretty scary. About a third of the world’s population are now carrying it.

Clifford - True but in terms of the most cases of TB treatment is very effective if you can make sure that he patient is taking the therapy regularly. The places where you can’t trust patients to keep therapy will get what you call DOTS which stands for directly observed therapy. That’s a good way of ensuring that the patient is taking therapy because somebody watches the patient swallow the medication. MDR TB is treatable if we catch it early. XDR TB has a very poor prognosis, unfortunately.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/893/



Title: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: lolaryan on 13/04/2008 03:52:10
M. lepra and M. tuberculosis are so closely related that they can cause a certain degree of immunity against the other; so throughout history there have tended to be waves of either leprosy or TB. TB appears to have won out as it is the more aggressive disease and is also thriving due to the HIV pandemic.
Interesting it has been found that in HIV patients that are also affected with leprosy; their leprosy only becomes a problem when the HIV is treated and their T cell count increase as then their immune system starts to fight the leprosy producing the gross inflammation which results in some of the symptoms of leprosy.
It is thought that M. lepra rose from the mutation of M. bovis and that humans picked M. bovis up from domesticated cattle through living with them or by consuming dairy products. Therefore it was more likely to have arisen in countries that had domesticated cattle and where the people consumed dairy products and were not lactose intolerant.
Title: Is TB (tuberculosis) returning to the UK and other western countries?
Post by: beckna on 13/04/2008 20:13:28
hi i had avium tb when i was a child, i caught it of a cockatoo! (bird) apparently there are alot of animals you can catch this from!!! as you all seem to know alot about tb i was wondering if anyone can answer a question for me????? can i have avium tb again???????? i have looked everywhere to find this answer but no where gives me info?