Naked Science Forum
General Science => General Science => Topic started by: neilep on 17/03/2008 13:41:03
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Dearest TNS Peeps Of Real Life Multi Cultural Academia Cleverness & Luff !!
" I'm dreaming, I'm dreaming...............let me dream"....sang my daughter in her school musical last Christmas..................and here is the actual dream I had !...fortunately I was able to photograph it before I forgot it !!
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As a sheepy I of course dream all the time.......I am after all a cloud with legs...........
Dreams are so difficult to remember aren't they ?.......what I want to know is that even when I have written it down....or recalled the memory many times soon after waking.....why does it just not stick !!?......me requires an dose of indelible glue to retain the dream !!
So, WHY....even after reading my notes....do I find it tricky to recall the dream ?
I just don't know.....do ewe ?
Huggles and shmishes to ewe
Mwah mwah mwah mwah
xxxxxxxxxxxx
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Dearest TNS Peeps Of Real Life Multi Cultural Academia Cleverness & Luff !!
" I'm dreaming, I'm dreaming...............let me dream"....sang my daughter in her school musical last Christmas..................and here is the actual dream I had !...fortunately I was able to photograph it before I forgot it !!
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As a sheepy I of course dream all the time.......I am after all a cloud with legs...........
Dreams are so difficult to remember aren't they ?.......what I want to know is that even when I have written it down....or recalled the memory many times soon after waking.....why does it just not stick !!?......me requires an dose of indelible glue to retain the dream !!
So, WHY....even after reading my notes....do I find it tricky to recall the dream ?
I just don't know.....do ewe ?
Huggles and shmishes to ewe
Mwah mwah mwah mwah
xxxxxxxxxxxx
Don't know, so I'll only speculate. One of the reasons could be the fact our brain switch to different frequencies when we're asleep, so we could be not "tuned" to "dreams station" [:)] when we are awake. Another reason could be the authomatic, unconscious inibition by our "rational part" to the dream's irrational contents (Super I controlling Es).
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I suspect it is simply that the long term memory storage circuits in out brain are disconnected while we are sleeping, and take a certain length of time as we wake up for the various circuits to kick in (a kind of staged power up process the brain goes through on waking), and by the time we get to switching in our long term memory storage systems, we have already had time to lose our dream memories from out short term memory.
Ofcourse, no doubt there are times when the staging will vary from person to person, hence why some people complain about sleep paralysis, or other phenomenon where the various mental circuits power up in the wrong order, and so for some people no doubt they get to remember their dreams easier than others, as for them maybe the long term memory storage switches in sooner (or the short term memory has just a little longer persistence).
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Dearest TNS Peeps Of Real Life Multi Cultural Academia Cleverness & Luff !!
" I'm dreaming, I'm dreaming...............let me dream"....sang my daughter in her school musical last Christmas..................and here is the actual dream I had !...fortunately I was able to photograph it before I forgot it !!
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As a sheepy I of course dream all the time.......I am after all a cloud with legs...........
Dreams are so difficult to remember aren't they ?.......what I want to know is that even when I have written it down....or recalled the memory many times soon after waking.....why does it just not stick !!?......me requires an dose of indelible glue to retain the dream !!
So, WHY....even after reading my notes....do I find it tricky to recall the dream ?
I just don't know.....do ewe ?
Huggles and shmishes to ewe
Mwah mwah mwah mwah
xxxxxxxxxxxx
Don't know, so I'll only speculate. One of the reasons could be the fact our brain switch to different frequencies when we're asleep, so we could be not "tuned" to "dreams station" [:)] when we are awake. Another reason could be the authomatic, unconscious inibition by our "rational part" to the dream's irrational contents (Super I controlling Es).
THANK YOU ALBERTO......makes perfect sense to me !!...LOL !! *sheepy takes run up to brick wall..THWACK !!*.....NOW I understand !!.. [;D]
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I suspect it is simply that the long term memory storage circuits in out brain are disconnected while we are sleeping, and take a certain length of time as we wake up for the various circuits to kick in (a kind of staged power up process the brain goes through on waking), and by the time we get to switching in our long term memory storage systems, we have already had time to lose our dream memories from out short term memory.
Ofcourse, no doubt there are times when the staging will vary from person to person, hence why some people complain about sleep paralysis, or other phenomenon where the various mental circuits power up in the wrong order, and so for some people no doubt they get to remember their dreams easier than others, as for them maybe the long term memory storage switches in sooner (or the short term memory has just a little longer persistence).
THANK YOU GEORGE !
Clearly this staggered staged firing up routine must perform a function.......and maybe not such a vital one when in the case of people who have to get up quickly (emergency services) it clearly is not debilitating in regaining reality !
I just wonder is dreams are not supposed to be easily remembered for a biological reason..........and if so...then why have them in the first place ?
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Even with emergency service personnel; have you not heard stories about people who have to get up in an emergency, and although they function perfectly well, the first thing they actually remember is when they are outside the front door, and half way down the street (i.e. even though they did function enough to get dressed, and leave the house, they had not stored those actions in long term memory, and the first long term memories they have is some time later).
Not sure if we can understand properly the processes of waking until we properly understand the process of sleep; but one can imagine that as with any machine, one cannot start process B until one is sure that process A is stable, so there must be a proper sequence to fire up all of the processes, and that will take time to ensure each prerequisite process is stable before the next process starts to become dependent upon it.
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When I was a teenager and my body clock was a bit messed up, the alarm would go off and I would be aware of it going off but then I would have an incredibly lucid dream about getting up and getting ready for school. I would then suddenly realise that I wasn't actually awake and then think that I'd woken up and have the same dream about getting up again. This could happen about three or four times before I actually got up for real. I found this exhausting. Do you think that this is a case of your system firing up in the wrong order. I would sometimes try to get out of bed for real in the middle of the dream but have the dream paralysis thing so then I would realise I was still asleep.
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Even with emergency service personnel; have you not heard stories about people who have to get up in an emergency, and although they function perfectly well, the first thing they actually remember is when they are outside the front door, and half way down the street (i.e. even though they did function enough to get dressed, and leave the house, they had not stored those actions in long term memory, and the first long term memories they have is some time later).
Not sure if we can understand properly the processes of waking until we properly understand the process of sleep; but one can imagine that as with any machine, one cannot start process B until one is sure that process A is stable, so there must be a proper sequence to fire up all of the processes, and that will take time to ensure each prerequisite process is stable before the next process starts to become dependent upon it.
Why yes....yes i have heard those stories............I think those events must be akin to sleep walking etc etc...........
.....I wonder if the same ' rules and regulations' regarding dreams apply to other animals too......
..I also wonder if the recollection of dreams is more along the remit of memory rather than sleep.............though the two are most certainly intertwined very closely at a certain level.
THANK YOU GEORGE !!
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When I was a teenager and my body clock was a bit messed up, the alarm would go off and I would be aware of it going off but then I would have an incredibly lucid dream about getting up and getting ready for school. I would then suddenly realise that I wasn't actually awake and then think that I'd woken up and have the same dream about getting up again. This could happen about three or four times before I actually got up for real. I found this exhausting. Do you think that this is a case of your system firing up in the wrong order. I would sometimes try to get out of bed for real in the middle of the dream but have the dream paralysis thing so then I would realise I was still asleep.
Fasci-dreamily-nating !!
In your lucid dream it seems ewe were in fact getting up !!.....the alarm being the trigger of course..........
........sounds like a system misfire to me...........but then I wonder if saying that your system is firing up in the wrong order might not be apt. To say so may lead peeps to indicate that there is a problem here.......perhaps this is in fact an early awareness (sleep paralysis).......within the lucid spectrum, of the end of your sleeping world, and the rejoining of the waking one.
I can see why it would be tiring !!!
THANK EWE Make It Lady !!
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Well I think permanent memories are super coated with myelin and that during the dream cycle of a sleep period the cycle is really quite short and for myelin to coat a permanent memory it takes many repetitions of recall to build the coating to retain that memory... when you have an experience and the experience is repeated over a longer period of time, it is coated each time the memory is recalled thus making the memory more permanent.. just as a very vivid dream will usually stick with you longer.. like a trauma..+
The brain is made from billions of cells. they are called neurons. These neurons are made to send any incoming messages or data all the way across the muscles or organs.. Like a phone line..they are each made up and surrounded by a cell body made of dendrites,, which are tissues that have a stretched out looking tissue that receives the data or messages. Now the axon, being a very long thread of tissue, comes out from the body of the cell toward other nerve cells. Its job is to send messages! So the axon is a messenger...
Lets say that you are a baby and you see this toy you want.. you reach out and grab at it at this point a signal will be sent from one neuron to another, going from the axon of a cell to the dendrite of the next cell..By doing this that data is moved to the muscles and along to the perceptual organs that are set up and needed to make that movement.
Data from one cell is moved or transmitted through chemical secretions, (neurotransmitters). They move out of the axon of one cell and pass into the dendrites of the next one.Then at the point where the axon and the dendrite come together is called the synapse.The number of synapses in the brain increases dramatically during the period of infancy and this is why we see such intellectual expansion and growth in a infant during the early development.
Myelin Like I said before, then comes in to play the part of helping to send the data or the neural messages, by helping the information move efficiently from one cell to another.Myelin is a fatty sheath or cover that surrounds the axons. It makes sure that the signals are sent efficiently,fast and accurately throughout the pathway.
Traumatic memories have a way of producing higher levels of Cortisol in the brain at least with infants so I suspect the same with any age.. The problem with the excess Cortisol hormones is that when it is elevated in an infant or child..it can threaten development of the brain by reducing the number of synapses which then makes the neurons really vulnerable to damage.. This I think is more in infancy... then adulthood, someone correct me if I am wrong..These high levels of the hormone Cortisol can cause damage, and can result in anxiety and emotional stresses later in life..They may find that these people have less control over their emotions.. This is often true of people who were abused or neglected as children.
Anyway this is basically the process of the brain making a memory except long term memory is usually myelinated and coated many times through repetition in order for it to be made permanent so I think with a dream we don't have such repetition unless it is like a recurring nightmare and we usually have no trouble remembering it because of its repetition and coating..So then it becomes a permanent memory.. I have dreams I remember just like that...nightmares..but they are repetitive.. so I remember them.. most dreams are not, so they are lost quickly.. like a passing thought.. on occasion something will click and I will recall a snippet of a dream but not everything.. It is an amazing process.. the brains workings..
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Why Are Dreams So Difficult To Recall ?
Maybe because your asleep when you have them.
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When I was a teenager and my body clock was a bit messed up, the alarm would go off and I would be aware of it going off but then I would have an incredibly lucid dream about getting up and getting ready for school. I would then suddenly realise that I wasn't actually awake and then think that I'd woken up and have the same dream about getting up again. This could happen about three or four times before I actually got up for real. I found this exhausting. Do you think that this is a case of your system firing up in the wrong order. I would sometimes try to get out of bed for real in the middle of the dream but have the dream paralysis thing so then I would realise I was still asleep.
My interpretation: you still had you body clock working...at the right time (represented in the dream by yourself getting up and getting ready for school), but the rest of your body was still too tired to be awakened by it. (I suspect you went to bed very late).
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No, I had a real problem getting to sleep at night but could sleep soundly from about 4.00am to noon.
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No, I had a real problem getting to sleep at night but could sleep soundly from about 4.00am to noon.
Can I ask you why you had problems in getting to sleep at night?
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I think dreams are difficult to recall because I don't think our brains are designed to permanently store dream information.
I think when we sleep our brain may act a bit like a computer hard drive in the "de fragmenting" mode. Information from throughout the day is being sorted while we sleep and fragments are put in temporary storage until they are put in order of importance etc and then updated.
I think in dreaming we somehow access that temp area and that's why dreams are also fragmented and hard to recall or understand.
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I think dreams are difficult to recall because I don't think our brains are designed to permanently store dream information.
I think when we sleep our brain may act a bit like a computer hard drive in the "de fragmenting" mode. Information from throughout the day is being sorted while we sleep and fragments are put in temporary storage until they are put in order of importance etc and then updated.
I think in dreaming we somehow access that temp area and that's why dreams are also fragmented and hard to recall or understand.
Do ewe think ' Dreams ' then are like our brains screen saver as it defrags itself ?
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Its more annoying still when you've had a dream with lots of breasts in and you can't remember that either...
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Its more annoying still when you've had a dream with lots of breasts in and you can't remember that either...
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzip !!
Trousers down !! [;D]
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Lol! [;D]
Do ewe think ' Dreams ' then are like our brains screen saver as it defrags itself ?
No, not a screen saver as such.
Dreams seem to take up just a small part of sleeping with short bursts of REM sleep and increased brain activity. Maybe in these periods of activity pathways are getting crossed and a dream occurs but from fragmented stuff not designed to be remembered even in the short term.
I think they don't stick in the mind well because of the above and that dreams are not part of that waking reality experience which the mind tries to sort out.
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LOL lol...She purty sexy gal there Neily!! LOL!
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Neil thats awesome hahahahahaha
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I suspect it is simply that the long term memory storage circuits in out brain are disconnected while we are sleeping, and take a certain length of time as we wake up for the various circuits to kick in (a kind of staged power up process the brain goes through on waking), and by the time we get to switching in our long term memory storage systems, we have already had time to lose our dream memories from out short term memory.
Ofcourse, no doubt there are times when the staging will vary from person to person, hence why some people complain about sleep paralysis, or other phenomenon where the various mental circuits power up in the wrong order, and so for some people no doubt they get to remember their dreams easier than others, as for them maybe the long term memory storage switches in sooner (or the short term memory has just a little longer persistence).
How would you explain the fact I often remembered my dreams with a lot of particulars in the periods I am particularly depressed and almost never, when I'm not so?
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I suspect it is simply that the long term memory storage circuits in out brain are disconnected while we are sleeping, and take a certain length of time as we wake up for the various circuits to kick in (a kind of staged power up process the brain goes through on waking), and by the time we get to switching in our long term memory storage systems, we have already had time to lose our dream memories from out short term memory.
Ofcourse, no doubt there are times when the staging will vary from person to person, hence why some people complain about sleep paralysis, or other phenomenon where the various mental circuits power up in the wrong order, and so for some people no doubt they get to remember their dreams easier than others, as for them maybe the long term memory storage switches in sooner (or the short term memory has just a little longer persistence).
How would you explain the fact I often remembered my dreams with a lot of particulars in the periods I am particularly depressed and almost never, when I'm not so?
Depression certainly does have an effect on the processes of memory, but I cannot say that I could be specific on how those effects might interact with the memory of dreams (but its effects are wider than merely the effect on remembering dreams).
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And how would you explain the fact that, after have totally forgotten a dream made the night before, I sometimes remember it if I go to bed and begin to relax? The best explanation I find, together with a lot of experience on dreams (psychoanalysis) is the control/inibition of Super I over our Es contents.
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I find if I awaken and am relaxed and wake up slowly, my memory not attuned to conscious notes and duties, I can recall a lot of my dreams. And in that state or looking at such a dream, like now, night time, like with conscious memories, I recall some other dreams by mistake, but I cannot recall when I had the dreams but roughly 20 years ago. In bits, and the plot is lost.
Some good music to go with this thread is:
http://www.ultimathule.info/
Choose to "Listen".