Naked Science Forum
General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: Make it Lady on 23/02/2009 20:17:58
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I just read that in a large secondary school (11 to 16 year olds) 10 children will be transgender. This is 1% of the population which is about all the people living in Sheffield. I'm not saying people in Sheffield are transgender. I am giving an idea of size. Yet in Britain it is legal to discriminate against transgender people unlike gay and lesbian people. When I am teaching teachers about inclusion they find it hard to think about gay and lesbian people as a minority group that are discriminated against so I feel I would have no chance when it comes to transgenderism. I know I am asking for abuse by posting this but I would like to know what is your opinion on including transgenderism as a topic in school citizenship and at what age?
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I think it's the sort of topic that should be broached but probably not until 12-14 years of age. Younger than that and a lot of kids wouldn't be able to understand it properly.
I don't think it's the kind of subject that should be left to parents as most of them won't know anything about it.
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My alma matter has trans-gender bathrooms (they are called unisex bathrooms). I find it odd that a person so young chooses such an identity. In the United States, such discrimination is legally a "hate crime." Growing up (and to this day, of course) I used to see dozens of girls dress and carry themselves as males, and only a very few people had a problem with it. Vise-versa, on the other hand, is a different story! Much pain for the boy!
You say that it is legal for a trans-gender person to be discriminated. I find that hard to believe, I thought the British legal system was sensitive.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you (Make It Lady) interpret British Law in your own peculiar way. Maybe you consider the absence of unisex-restrooms as "discrimination." Again, I find it hard to believe that British trans-genders have less rights than other citizens.
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Up until recently (2004 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2004/ukpga_20040007_en_1)) in the UK those who had had gender reassignment were officially treated as their original gender,
e.g. documents like driving licences would show original gender and could not be changed,
(I this may be the type of state-authorised "legal""discrimination" MakeItLady is referring to).
I don't think "the league of gentlemen" have helped in this matter ...
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When I spoke to my 14 year old son about it he just said "well no one takes them seriously because they look so funny" I guess the comedy programs have made fun characters of them.
The reason given for transgender people being outside the discrimination laws is that it is a lifestyle choice. I don't think you would choose to be spat at and bullied. Girls are allowed to be tomboys. Being called a tomboy doesn't seem like a bad label but calling a boy a sissy is seen as an insult. I don't get that.
Evidence shows that most transgender children realise they are "in the wrong gender" at about 7 years old and children as young as 11 have committed suicide because of it. I think reading the story "The boy in the dress" by David Walliams to young children would be a good way of starting a dialogue on the subject of self expression. If you haven't read it, it is very good. It is a children's book but very funny.
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Well, you're basing the discrimination on a freedom of speech basis. A person has the right to dress as such, and a person ought to have the right to say what they want. Remember, in many many places around the world a person can be sent to prison, or worse, for trans-gender behavior.
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Remember, in many many places around the world a person can be sent to prison, or worse, for trans-gender behavior.
Thank god for common sense.
I know I am asking for abuse by posting this but I would like to know what is your opinion on including transgenderism as a topic in school citizenship and at what age?
It should not be a topic for young school aged children
Evidence shows that most transgender children realise they are "in the wrong gender" at about 7 years old and children as young as 11 have committed suicide because of it.
Sorry, but I (with no facts to back this up) doubt this, children (may) get confused but a 7 year old does not want a sex change or to be another sex, and if any do then they need treatment.
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Evidence shows that most transgender children realise they are "in the wrong gender" at about 7 years old and children as young as 11 have committed suicide because of it.
Sorry, but I (with no facts to back this up) doubt this, children (may) get confused but a 7 year old does not want a sex change or to be another sex, and if any do then they need treatment.
Oh they might not give it the name "transgender", but they sure know that they are different. Information about the topic will make things very much easier for the few children that really are in the wrong body for their gender.
Some time ago I saw someting about it in TV, the child showed early signs, like loving to wear dresses and playing a princess. At first the parents thought it was just a phase and ignored it pretty much, but soon found that the behaviour was persistent. As a result the child is now living as a girl and taking hormones to prevent the changes during pubercy. As soon as she's 18 years old she can decide to have the operation. The parents had to fight for the hormone treatment. From her outward appearance you'd never know that she once was a boy, behaviour, voice, habitus all said girl. I've tried to find some follow up information, no luck so far.
In Germany you can have your gender can be changed officially, the rules for it are very strict of course.
I think films like Toosie etc don't help true transgendered people, like your son said, MIL, because of that people think TGs look funny.
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I agree with several of the above posts - I can't understand how any kid of 7 could have made the decision to change gender, and i find it even harder to believe that any doctor or parent would support them in this, particularly in any medical way, until they were much older. of course, I mean practical support here, not emotional.
I'm also a little confused as to how people differentiate between being in the wrong gender and being gay? Where is the line crossed?
I'm sorry, but I can't help thinking of Mr Garrison in South park. [;D] I guess that just reinforces everything said about these issues being the subject of comedy.
I do agree that older children should probably be made aware of trans-genders as a minority group, to help them understand the reasons and emotions behind the 'funny appearance'
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Homosexuality is about how you relate to someone sexually. Transgender is about how you feel about yourself, this has nothing to do with sexual orientation. I.e. a M2F (male to female) TG is attracted to men before the surgery and will stay attracted to men afterwards.
Don't confuse transgendered people with drag queens or kings, drag is a kink, most of them are secure in their gender roles and there are as many gay drag queens/kings as there are straight ones. Transgendered people true feel they are in the wrong body and simply dressing up as the other gender once or twice per week isn't enough.
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Not all are "funny looking" like Barbara (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rRA8GYzU8E) ...
[ Invalid Attachment ]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey
Although I don't fancy yours much. [:)]
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Remember, in many many places around the world a person can be sent to prison, or worse, for trans-gender behavior.
Thank god for common sense.
I know I am asking for abuse by posting this but I would like to know what is your opinion on including transgenderism as a topic in school citizenship and at what age?
It should not be a topic for young school aged children
Evidence shows that most transgender children realise they are "in the wrong gender" at about 7 years old and children as young as 11 have committed suicide because of it.
Sorry, but I (with no facts to back this up) doubt this, children (may) get confused but a 7 year old does not want a sex change or to be another sex, and if any do then they need treatment.
It's not clear if your first point is that you thank God for the common sense that we show by not doing that or the common sense shown by those who do.
Also, since long multiplication may confuse shcoolchildren, perhaps we should not teach it in schools.
Surely it's better to have kids a bit muddled up about sex than totally uneducated about it?
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It's not clear if your first point is that you thank God for the common sense that we show by not doing that or the common sense shown by those who do.
Is it not? I go with the later of the two.
Also, since long multiplication may confuse shcoolchildren, perhaps we should not teach it in schools.
Surely it's better to have kids a bit muddled up about sex than totally uneducated about it?
I don't see how they are the same. Teaching someone maths that they find hard to understand and teaching 7 year old that their friends may "be in the wrong bodies" are just not the same.
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I have some weblinks on my work computer and will put them on here soon. I read about this originally in the Education section of the Guardian. It was written by the super teacher. He has loads of respect in the business.
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Homosexuality is about how you relate to someone sexually. Transgender is about how you feel about yourself, this has nothing to do with sexual orientation. I.e. a M2F (male to female) TG is attracted to men before the surgery and will stay attracted to men afterwards.
I understand the difference - but am not sure if the two can be associated or are completely unrelated. I guess its as likely for someone to be male and comfortable and attracted to other males as to be female and in the wrong gender and also attracted to males.
I still think kids are generally smarter than adults give them credit for - they're going to come across these issues eventually anyway, and surely if they've had even a tiny bit of education about it they'll be less inclined to misunderstand. I know kids can also be cruel, but I don't see how education can make that better or worse. At least they'll have their facts straight!
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Thanks Fishtails I agree with this but it is also about helping children that are already feeling that something is wrong with them. Shame is a terrible thing but a lot of people end up feeling ashamed of what they are and what they do. This is why education is important along with the bullying aspect.