Naked Science Forum
Life Sciences => The Environment => Topic started by: Woman Made Scientist on 09/05/2011 22:30:03
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Woman Made Scientist asked the Naked Scientists:
I want to know the endgame results of weather-modification, stratospheric geo-engineerig AKA chemtrails.
What is to be expected and the damages so far. Will it ever stop?? Thank you.
What do you think?
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Here's the answer.. (http://www.supercell.org/thomas902.html)
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That is no answer my dear. This is a science based question with no proof of truth needed. Scientists all over the world study it. There is known world-wide weather modification going on called stratospheric geoengineering and what many call Chemtrails.
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There is known world-wide weather modification going on called stratospheric geoengineering and what many call Chemtrails.
Would you care to elaborate? Are you suggesting that there's some sort of Grand International (or perhaps Unilateral?) Conspiracy to attempt global dimming through stratospheric sulfate aerosols? Because (unless you have information we don't) there's no-one doing this openly (and the wikipedia article indicates that it's not currently clear how/whether it would be possible to do this in any effective way).
There's an awful lot of what, to use a term suitable for a family site, I will term "gibbering idiocy" on the internet on this general topic (searching for "chemtrails" turns up , so if you're interested in a constructive discussion you will need to provide links to what it is, exactly, you want to discuss.
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Yes, it is a little embarrassing isn't it Rosy. Either she's terribly misinformed or we just found another person presenting something really strange. This is not Science, and have never been. Witchcraft is also believed to exist by some, not to speak of all those people that becomes 'instant gurus' over the reach of one single lifetime, whilst we other have full up with learning to cope :)
This is not that sort of site. We are a friendly family oriented site trying to communicate science, and hopefully make some sense. We neither believe in instant gurus, witchcraft or 'Chemtrails', as far as I know. If we did I would fast take my leave to some saner place.
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There certainly are a lot of aerosols spreading this stuff around.
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Woman Made Scientist, some people don’t know how to indulge in reasoned debate and are best ignored. There's plenty helpful information available elsewhere on the Internet where you won't be subjected to insults.
Although your question is specifically about weather engineering, not climate engineering, the two are closely related so you may find the Unearthed video: Global warming alarmist Stephen Schneider caught on a May 1978 episode of the TV show In Search Of…The Coming Ice Age” Sept. 2009 article http://algorelied.com/?p=2839 (http://algorelied.com/?p=2839) worth reading. It reports on the views of Professor Steven Schneider (deceased) when he was expressing concern back in the late 70’s about the threat of global cooling. It quotes from Stephen Schneider’s comments in the third segment of a TV series In Search Of…The Coming Ice Age.
Stephen Schneider, wondering whether we should try to interfere in Nature’s role as global climate controller by trying to stave off a coming ice age, said “Can we do these things? Yes. But will they make things better? I’m not sure. We can’t predict with any certainty what’s happening to our own climatic future. How can we come along and intervene then in that ignorance? You could melt the icecaps. What would that do to the coastal cities? The cure could be worse than the disease. Would that better or worse than the risk of an ice age?”.
Those wise words from 33 years ago are just as relevant today, don’t you agree?
The video is available on the Internet if you care to search for it.
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Yes please, find those 'scientific' sites where you can discuss it freely. Do not feel forced to present it here please.
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I've got an idea - lets ignore chemtrails and all that comes with them, and instead discuss what might be the consequences of real weather engineering. Any thoughts?
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Ben - I think that's where the law of unintended consequences will become paramount. the global weather system was the prototypical chaotic system in which arbitrarily small changes to the initial conditions caused arbitrarily large end results. Whilst the weather systems have probably been studied more than any other large scale chaotic system - we are still pretty crumby at making even short term predictions. The met office in the UK are right most of the time (so far today they are spot on) - but to ethically make changes to one part of a connected system we must be able to predict with very high certainty its long and short term consequences on both a local and global scale
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Look at Carnicom Institute site, the international stratospheric geoengineering conducts weather and climate modification. Some Electric Companies internationally participate creating water which makes electricity, many water departments are aware of it. You do not remember ClimateGate??? This happened by your countries great people of discovery. If people are insulting why should I care if they cannot hear or research the truth, they just make themselves look badly and unmannerly. This is an old hidden science and weather modification has been going on for nearly 60 years. Global warming hoax is the man-made weather control to gas the skies and take your tax monies and they are succeeding.
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This isn't really the place for conspiracy theory, thanks, and it's unlikely to recieve a receptive audience.
There are, however, established scientific weather modification techniques, such as cloud seeding, and have been proposals for storm control and hurrican reduction. It would be interesting to discuss the outcomes, intended or otherwise, of such experiments.
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That was the question, there is no theory, all are facts, please check out Climategate and Carnicom.
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Climategate certainly has nothing to do with weather modification.
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The weather modification is done under the guise of global warming, Climategate uncovers there is no global warming.
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Sorry, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick here. Weather modification so far has been tested for seeding rain or minimising storms, and has nothing to do with altering the climate (although some global cooling ideas have been suggested). Climategate was about the leaking of some emails, and fell a long way short of suggesting climate change isn't real.
But that's enough on that topic. Let's just discuss known weather modification tests, and their outcomes.
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Politically and the tax program with the Copenhagen treaty involvement it is conclusive a high tax program is involved with the guise of global warming. But I agree, to the point of not caring if you agree or not about this. The out come of fooling with mother nature has shown some vial turbulences for quite some time now. To not let nature take its´ course is disastrous. The earth has to evolve, just as humans, animals and plants are to.
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You could either have local "Weather Modification" or global "Climate Modification".
There have been many experiments with Cloud Seeding, generally with local consequences. But, keep in mind that one area will get excess rain so that another can get lower amounts. And, whatever is being used to seed the clouds will come out with the rain.
If flooding is a type of "Weather". Then Flood Control, Dikes, and Dams would be a basic type of weather control.
Dams can cause fish habitat changes including damaging salmon runs. River water temperatures can be increased. Silt is deposited in reservoirs, not out in the ocean.
Celilo Falls was an important Native American fishing Community and cultural center, but has been covered by dam water for decades.
Dikes can deprive river deltas of valuable sediments and can be major contributors of land subsidence. Dikes may also exacerbate the very flooding that they intend to prevent by narrowing river channels.
As far as global climate modification.
Some suggestions are to blast Sulfur dioxide and Sulfuric Acid into the atmosphere. Thus campaigns to limit Coal and Diesel sulfur emissions would be reversed, and acid rain would increase as well as acidification of various water bodies. Consequences could be very widespread.
Other proposals have been to blast salt particles into the upper atmosphere, potentially seeding clouds, and sending corrosive salt rain inland and changing precipitation patterns.
With any climate changes, there will be winners and there will be losers. Many in Northern climates may benefit from less snow and longer spring/summer seasons. However, undoubtedly some areas would experience severe negative consequences such as increased drought or sea inundation. Likewise, attempts to cool the atmosphere will benefit some and harm others. Any modification could also benefit some native species, and harm others.
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Tests were done on weather modication dispersals in certain areas. High amounts of barium and other ingredients were found in these results. Bees, dead in numerous weather modified areas and frogs with gross deformities have also arisen. The products dispersed in weather modication is not regulated in many areas. Scientists have traced the rash of unexplained dermopathy, a man-made disease to many of these weather modified areas. Weather modification chemicals are not always inspected and regulations need to be made and enforced on dispersal, inspection and in flight management if the continuation of weather modification is allowed to continue.
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Do you have any evidence for any of this?
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I am in no doubt that Air Traffic controllers adopt a technique for routing aircraft that creates, what appear to be criss cross chequer like patterns of jet exhaust in the sky. This is most likely a result of safety issues with aircraft vicinity and speed relative to each other. Unfortunately this does also, climatic conditions permitting, create visible, long, thin artificial clouds in the sky above. These clouds have an albedo effect and reflect more of the suns radiation back into space cooling the ground below.
There are something like 18 million commercial airline flights every year, these figures exclude military and private! So you could say that for the past 50yrs or so we have been engineering the climate by creating artificial clouds.
As per your conspiracy theory concerning chem trails, well they are chemical trails, they do contain lots of chemicals, in fact, most of them pretty nasty ones which drift slowly down and pollute your lungs and the environment. It's worse then you thought, those chem trails are killing you slowly, don't worry though it will be your turn soon and when you get that flight next month you can get your revenge on the folk below.....
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See Carnicom Institute for evidence. No intellectual could ever believe your description of criss cross, etc... when evidence of weather modification is right on top of your head.
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The Carnicom Institute is not a disinterested party promoting independent research it is a website dedicated to promulgating a set of ideas. Do you have any evidence that is peer-reviewed or even presented by scientists who are not already affiliated to the institute? Most of the 'papers' I sampled on the institute's site are written by amateurs or academics who specialize in vastly different areas. I will reiterate Ben's question - do you have any scientific evidence?
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What is your back round to state this bizarre statement? Carnicom was a government scientist and is a full fledged scientist. He has nothing to acheive financially.This has been proven for a very long time with hard evidence, by many influential scientists. There is nothing to prove as it sits proven for a long time. If you are trying to tear up the proof it is impossible. The truth will always stand.
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My background is immaterial to the question - however the background of those making outlandish claims is more important.
Here is a link to Google Scholar on Clifford E Carnicom 6 hits none academic papers (http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?as_q=&num=10&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=any&as_sauthors=clifford+e+carnicom&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_sdt=1.&as_sdtf=&as_sdts=5&btnG=Search+Scholar&hl=en). I realise there are better scientific paper search engines - but this one is easily accessible. If it has missed any academic papers please post links.
At present the case does not rest as proven - and no proof has been given to be torn up.
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I realise there are better scientific paper search engines - but this one is easily accessible. If it has missed any academic papers please post links.
At present the case does not rest as proven - and no proof has been given to be torn up.
No worries imatfaal, I checked on Web of Science, which IS a comprehensive search engine (google scholar is still very good) and still no hits on C. E. Carnicom. Nada...zilch...nothing.
Chemtrails are likely just contrails, made more visible by increases in atmospheric water vapor due to warming. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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Your back round is important. Google Carnicom Institute, scientific evidence is all there. Who knows, you might be one of the people doing weather modication to his or her own way. Obviously you are afraid of people knowing to the point of hiding who you are and trying to tear up truths about clear cut evidence that is truthfully obvious.
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Oh you misunderstand W-M-S - I have googled Carnicom, and I have spent an instructive time looking through various parts of the site, and I have yet to see any proof. I did not see anything that I would categorise as a scientific paper.
I post under a user-name because I am a director of public company and I do not want anyone to link my views as expressed in an off-the-cuff manner on the internet with those views of the company, my fellow directors, and the shareholders.
And we have still to see a single link to a single independent academic paper/article/letter.
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See Carnicom Institute for evidence. No intellectual could ever believe your description of criss cross, etc... when evidence of weather modification is right on top of your head.
There is the spacing issue of jet aircraft.
As well as the drift of the clouds. So, if two airplanes took the exact same course 10 minutes separated, the jet trails will drift, and not overlap.
What a conspiracy theory.
A top secret plan to make visible clouds.
And not tell anybody about it.
The Jet Trails are just that. Primarily condensation of water vapor in the exhaust. And, certainly we've had them in the sky for my entire life. Nothing new there.
Certainly any cloud seeding (getting rid of clouds) would be on a very small scale such as the Russian plan to reduce snow in Moscow, or the Chinese plan to have clear weather for the Beijing Olympics.
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Well it does not take a genius to see who is covering constantly the truth and trying to make it into some thing that it is the opposite of. You boys are clearly involved.
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Please stop this nonsense, archiveX have a higher entertainment value than this. Seeding clouds to make rain is a thing some countries have tried, finding it a not especially trustworthy technique if I remember right. I think Russia tried it once, don't remember why, maybe in connection to the Chernobyl accident? To fell out particles from the air??
Anyway, as I remember it's not very trustworthy even though those using it constantly will defend it, naturally :) We humans work from dough, and there is quite some dough involved for those promoting this kind of ideas. Geoengineering from a global perspective doesn't exist. From a Jules Verne perspective I would love to see it though :) although I shudder for the consequences. This world is an incredibly fine tuned instrument, constantly interacting and feeding on its own interactions, creating a balanced non-linearity that actually keeps us alive. Then we come, newly down from the trees thinking we 'know it all', not unlike all adolescents.
We can't Geoengineer, not on any scale that matters, unless we're talking food, exploiting and refining resources. But that we do at the same instinctive level as bacteria seem do take care of itself. It's called survival, and also 'greed' when it comes to humans. We can't even live in peace in our own homes, can we? Take a look at the small arm wars around you. And you expect us to have the power, and consensus, to change a earth??
America may be the cradle of modern hard SF, but that's it, Geoengineering as a consensual way do not exist yet, and if we ever comes to it I doubt we would throw into it without very good reasons, and, it would need a consensus from all nations existing, at least the majority of them. Nobody owns this world, we're just transients in Earth's history. Maybe we will find a way to stay longer than the geological upheavals we can see historically depicted, but if they are right this world will in some hundred thousand years make a clean house, again, and start anew.
Simply expressed. We're not the crown of existence, never was, never will be. But we have curiosity, and history, and some of us try to learn from it.
Give me a break, will'ya.
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I'm not sure what your goal is WMS, you sound really upset!
But you just can't control everything by simply STOPPING it.
If that startegy had been used, from the begining with everything, we'd maybe live to median age of 30 yrs old.
Medicine, modifies nature. If I didn't have blood pressure meds I'd be dead by now. If we had stopped the use of medicine, surgery, materials developement, technology and science because it disrupts the natureal flow of nature, we'd be in a horrendous state.
I'm no scientist, and know very little of weather systems, for all I know, we're doing a terrible job.... but that's not the reason to condemn it. There may well be good potential if we are allowed to learn from our mistakes and develop a technology that extends and betters the life of millions.
Now would be the time to develop, while there are still many more aircraft con-trails than chem trails in the air.
If you want to help, work at bettering the system, in a scientific way, not tearing it down....
Much more can be done "working WITH the system".
I don't think we're here for tearing things down!
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I think the Carnicom Institute has received more than enough free publicity from this thread. As WMS has presented no credible evidence to support the claims, I'm locking the thread.