Naked Science Forum
On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: LB7 on 25/09/2017 20:08:07
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I start a new thread because others people ask me in private message details of the old device. So maybe it could be easier to understand with only one device. It is just to give an example where the law of conservation is not true. I resumed all information on the pdf file.
Note, the device can have a mass, friction, and a more realistic force for the spring (force proportional to the length) but it is more complex to calculate. So, like I described: no mass, no friction, force of the springs constant, it is easy to prove, no need very complex equations.
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I understood where is my error: the walls don't move like the white disk, so the surface to be adjust are not the same.
Anyway, I understood when I move out and in a sphere it costs nor needs nothing because if I can recover energy from a spring I lost the same energy because the pressure is not the same.
So, my first idea to let the white disk fixed was good. Just rotate the walls. Move out/in the spheres. That's all.
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I understood where is my error: the walls don't move like the white disk, so the surface to be adjust are not the same.
Anyway, I understood when I move out and in a sphere it costs nor needs nothing because if I can recover energy from a spring I lost the same energy because the pressure is not the same.
So, my first idea to let the white disk fixed was good. Just rotate the walls. Move out/in the spheres. That's all.
Hi Lb, I have looked over your link, to be honest buddy I can not from your link understand what you are doing or trying or achieve.
Are you trying to make a perpetual device?
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Hi TheBox, I want to create/destroy the energy.
My device needs to use the law of pressure of a fluid under gravity but I need to change the orientation of the attraction. For that, I imagined a theoretical device with no mass, no friction, all volumes constant, the force of the springs constant (doesn't depend of the length of the spring), like that calculations are easy. I use a lot small blue spheres, like molecules of water but without a mass and without friction. I use springs to do like the gravity: attract. One spring for each blue sphere. The device is a three dimensions device, but I use only one layer of sphere (again to simplify the calculations), at start, the device is a parallelepiped and at final it is a cuboid, it is not a cycle, I just study the sum of energy in the deformation of the device. The orientation of the springs change, it is the same than the wall 1 (or 2), yeah, it is the particularity, the orientation change all the time when the device is deformed.
I calculated the device without nothing in it and I have the sum of energy conserved:
X=Y+W with X the potential energy at start, Y the potential energy at final and W the work of the walls. The springs lost a potential energy that the walls recover in work.
Now, I put in it a fixed white disk (in the last pdf file I spoke about turn the white disk but let it fixed and smaller because the white disk must be always inside the device). The walls give the same energy W. The potential energy at start is reduced of d1. And the potential energy at final is reduced of d2. Keep in mind, like I want to conserved the springs parallel of the wall 1, always, so I need to move out spheres from the device and move in in the same time because I want to keep constant the volumes. So for that I need an extra layer of spheres, but it is only one layer, because after, the next layer to move out becomes the extra layer. But to move out/in the spheres, like the volumes are constant, I don't need any energy. So the sum of energy is :
at start: X-d1
at final: Y+W-d2
d1<d2 because at start the orientation of the springs is 45° and at final it is 90°.
I hope you can understand, I feel alone.
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Hi TheBox, I want to create/destroy the energy.
Ok, I stopped reading at this first sentence, my reason is because you can't destroy energy, you can use energy which will transform into work, but you can't destroy it.
Can you please re-phrase before I read the rest of your post?
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Ok, so I just want to know where I'm wrong in my device, can you help me ?
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Ok, so I just want to know where I'm wrong in my device, can you help me ?
I will certainly be able to help you in your device but firstly I need to know what you are trying to do or I will not understand your device.
What does your device want to do ?
Generate free electricity?
Perpetual movement?
I can't guess so need to know from you. What do you hope to achieve with your device?
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The device gives more energy than it lost in potential energy.
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The device gives more energy than it lost in potential energy.
So just to clarify, you have a notion for a device that if we lets say , put 1 joules of energy into it , it would lets say produce 2 joules of energy in return?
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Yes I have. My device is not an hamiltonnien so Noether is not applied here.
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Yes I have. My device is not an hamiltonnien so Noether is not applied here.
Ok, so please describe how your device works in simple terms. Try not to use science.
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Look at the #3, and look at the drawings in the pdf file. Don't hesitate if you have questions. I don't use science, just logic and geometric.
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Look at the #3, and look at the drawings in the pdf file. Don't hesitate if you have questions. I don't use science, just logic and geometric.
I have looked at your link and drawings but to be ''frank'' , they mean very little without a decent explanation. I have no idea what your drawings are trying to show in the way of working mechanics. I neither understand your explanation and I am not sure anybody else will either. Understanding is everything, at this time I could not say whether your idea and device will work or not because you are not giving sufficient understandable information.
I will ask a few questions to see if we can there.
What powers your device?
What output will the device have?
What is the mechanics of the device?
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The power of the device depends of the size, the force of the springs and the number of deformation each second. It is not a device to produce electricity, just to break the law of conservation of energy in theory.
The mechanics of the device is to use pressure like water can do with gravity.
I don't know what you didn't understand. Maybe I can explain some basics parts and you say if it is ok for you ?
1/ I use small spheres like molecule of water, but no mass and no friction
2/ I use springs to attract spheres
3/ To simplify the calculation, I have no mass, no friction, all volumes are constant, the force of the springs don't depends of the length, the springs are outside or have no volume. I use small spheres and springs to use the law of pressure of a fluid under gravity, it is simple law
4/ The goal of the device is to break in theory, with an example, the law of conservation of energy
5/ All parts of the device (especially the spheres) don't have continuous function, so it is not an Hamiltonien
6/ The white disk is fixed to the ground, and always inside the container
7/ The orientation of the springs are always like the walls 1 and 2, when the walls rotate, the springs change naturally their orientation
8/ The device is unstable, I need an external device to control the movement, especially because there is no mass. But I suppose that external device is perfect, it counts the energy it gives and recovers the energy it can.
9/ When the walls rotate, I need to move out/in of the container the spheres behind/back to the white disk, the energy to move out/in the spheres is zero, anyway they move out and move in
Is is ok ?
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Ok, I stopped reading at this first sentence, my reason is because you can't destroy energy, you can use energy which will transform into work, but you can't destroy it.
Can you please re-phrase before I read the rest of your post?
He's made a thread about this before. I tried to explain to him why his device doesn't create or destroy energy, but he never seemed to understand.
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Ok, I stopped reading at this first sentence, my reason is because you can't destroy energy, you can use energy which will transform into work, but you can't destroy it.
Can you please re-phrase before I read the rest of your post?
He's made a thread about this before. I tried to explain to him why his device doesn't create or destroy energy, but he never seemed to understand.
No Kryptid, for you no mass means no energy. And you never can understood my device. But I found my error in my device with the rotation of the white disk: the walls give the energy that I calculated, the potential energy change like I explained, but the error was in the move out/in energy (the spheres). I didn't understand the sum of energy to move out/in is zero (from any point to any point). And my first idea to let the white disk fixed was good:
https://i.imgur.com/oFr4Q11.png
The last image dates of near one year !
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The power of the device depends of the size, the force of the springs and the number of deformation each second. It is not a device to produce electricity, just to break the law of conservation of energy in theory.
The mechanics of the device is to use pressure like water can do with gravity.
I don't know what you didn't understand. Maybe I can explain some basics parts and you say if it is ok for you ?
1/ I use small spheres like molecule of water, but no mass and no friction
2/ I use springs to attract spheres
3/ To simplify the calculation, I have no mass, no friction, all volumes are constant, the force of the springs don't depends of the length, the springs are outside or have no volume. I use small spheres and springs to use the law of pressure of a fluid under gravity, it is simple law
4/ The goal of the device is to break in theory, with an example, the law of conservation of energy
5/ All parts of the device (especially the spheres) don't have continuous function, so it is not an Hamiltonien
6/ The white disk is fixed to the ground, and always inside the container
7/ The orientation of the springs are always like the walls 1 and 2, when the walls rotate, the springs change naturally their orientation
8/ The device is unstable, I need an external device to control the movement, especially because there is no mass. But I suppose that external device is perfect, it counts the energy it gives and recovers the energy it can.
9/ When the walls rotate, I need to move out/in of the container the spheres behind/back to the white disk, the energy to move out/in the spheres is zero, anyway they move out and move in
Is is ok ?
I am sorry you are not making a lot of sense in your explanation. I still have no idea of what you are trying to achieve. You may think that when you write something it is easy to understand for a reader. This is not true, it is easy to understand from your point of view because the thoughts are your thoughts and you are the number 1 expert in your own idea. So you think you are explaining it simply, in reality you are not because I can't understand your idea and I am pretty sure others will not either.
So when you explain your idea, you have got to explain your idea with such simplicity , that everyone can understand.
Think of one sentence that explains your idea, don't involve science if you can help it.
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So, it is for that I wrote number, to know what you didn't understand.
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No Kryptid, for you no mass means no energy.
That's exactly how reality works. You can't have one without the other. Surely you've heard of E=mc2?
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No Kryptid, for you no mass means no energy.
That's exactly how reality works. You can't have one without the other. Surely you've heard of E=mc2?
Ahem! A photon is massless. A photon has energy. You could argue it has relativistic mass.
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My device is massless just because I need to simplify the calculations. I can set a mass for all parts. But like that it is easier to find my error. If you say what you didn't understand I can explain. It is like gravity but I can change the orientation. It is a theoretical device.
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Ahem! A photon is massless. A photon has energy. You could argue it has relativistic mass.
I know that a photon has no rest mass (or invariant mass, if you prefer). Relativistic mass is indeed along the lines of what I was thinking.
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The device with the white disk (or another shape) fixed to the ground:
1/ the energy from the walls is constant
2/ the potential energy at start and at final are constant
3/ the potential energy to move out/in the layer 1/2 is constant (the sum of in + out = zero)
4/ I have THE CHOICE to move out any layer I want, but the pressure is NOT THE SAME so how the sum of energy could be constant ?
https://i.imgur.com/PnZEnq5.png
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I don't need to follow the principle of last action ! I have the choice. Only one energy is not fixed, the sum of energy is not constant.