Naked Science Forum

On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: LB7 on 14/11/2017 04:57:25

Title: Deform a device and lost an energy without friction
Post by: LB7 on 14/11/2017 04:57:25
The device seems to lost an energy. There is no pressure from the white disks to the left and right walls.


* c.png (105.37 kB . 967x541 - viewed 7878 times)


* c2.png (61.97 kB . 687x465 - viewed 7781 times)


* c3.png (100.96 kB . 818x486 - viewed 7663 times)


* c4.png (83.62 kB . 809x472 - viewed 7791 times)


* c5.png (73.9 kB . 723x495 - viewed 7769 times)



Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy
Post by: Zer0 on 14/11/2017 23:30:57
What is this device called/named ?
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy
Post by: Zer0 on 15/11/2017 19:28:22
Isn't there a local RadioShack or diy store around your place from where you could buy parts/objects/springs at an economical price n then make a small working model of the device, then record a short video of the device in action n then upload it on utube ?    👍
It would be really pretty cool to see your device in action, for real !   👌

*Note - if it works exactly like you have calculated, Please after making the device do not post a video of it online right away.   ✋
I would sincerely advice you to read up on Patent Laws & Procedures n get your technique/device Patented right away.   ✌
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy
Post by: Zer0 on 17/11/2017 16:13:53
All the Best for your Project/Test/Experiment LB7. 👍👌✌
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy
Post by: Zer0 on 21/11/2017 19:57:43
Hi LB7 ✋😀

Nobody out here seems to be paying attention, don't you have a physicist or a physics professor or a mechanical engineer close by to your home, or senior  engineering students with whom you could talk/discuss face to face and get helpful reviews on your experiment/project ?
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy
Post by: LB7 on 22/11/2017 10:29:21
Hi Zer0 :)

Yeah, I don't know why people are not interesting because it is not possible to use Noether with this device, so maybe the sum of energy is not constant. And the last case is very easy to understand. No I don't know someone who can help me. I try to use forums but so few accept new theories with serious people, here I thought it was good at start.
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy without friction
Post by: LB7 on 04/12/2017 21:24:16
I come back to the solution with a lot of empty white disks:


* d6.png (134.28 kB . 914x595 - viewed 6219 times)

The white disks deform themselves when the container is deformed. The white disks keep their altitude inside the container, like that I don't recover energy from the white disks.


* 95.png (102.72 kB . 790x437 - viewed 6213 times)
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy without friction
Post by: LB7 on 05/12/2017 04:37:49
In the last device, if I decrease the size of the white disks, I decrease the energy won by the first white disks A, B, C, D when they deform themselves (when the white disk A, B, C, D change their diameter I recover an energy but only from these white disks). So, the energy won is very small if the diameter of the white disks is small. In the contrary, reduce the diameter of the white disks don't change the surface occupied by the white disks. Like always: no friction, no mass, all volumes are constant. The white disks don't have springs.

No lateral movement of the blue spheres.
No up/down movement of the blue spheres.
No modification of the potential energy from the blue spheres.
Deform the white disks don't need nor give any energy.
The work from the walls is -0.207.
The work from the green line is +0.414 k with k the % of the surface occupied by the blue spheres inside the container.
The work lost by the springs of the blue spheres is -0.207 k
The work won by the last layer of white disks is near 0 is the size of the white disks is near 0. The blue spheres can be considered in theory with a size near 0 but the white disk not, but the energy can be adjust, so it is an independant parameter.

The sum can't be constant.
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy without friction
Post by: LB7 on 10/12/2017 18:36:45
It is the best solution, reduce the  size of the white disks and I need near 0 energy for the disks at top.
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy without friction
Post by: LB7 on 11/12/2017 15:18:58
The white disks don't change their altitude inside the container. The white disk 6 cancel the force of the white disk 7, the white disk 5 cancel the force of the white disks 6 and 7, etc. Af final the forces are only on the white disks A, B, C, D and it the diameter of the white disks are small, the energy needed for these disks is small because the distance is small.

The sum of energy is:

-0.207-0.204*k+0.414*k-N*R*(√2-1)*(1-k)/N with k the percentage of the surface of the blue spheres compares to the surface of the container, N the number of white disks at top (A,B,C,D= 4 for example), R the radius of the white disks. The energy don't depends of N.
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy without friction
Post by: LB7 on 11/12/2017 20:42:11
with several triangles:


* d18.png (46.84 kB . 1097x450 - viewed 5538 times)


* hj5.png (41.52 kB . 1035x471 - viewed 5518 times)


* d99.png (51.76 kB . 1087x463 - viewed 5483 times)
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy without friction
Post by: LB7 on 12/12/2017 16:01:46
Like that the walls lost a lot, but the springs don't lost a lot and the green line doesn't win a lot:

Example with only one white object:


* es6.png (22.11 kB . 1089x408 - viewed 5462 times)

I add a lot :



* es2.png (66.33 kB . 1090x380 - viewed 5473 times)

All volumes are constant. No mass, no friction.

I think I need to reduce the length of the white shape at the 2 ends in the same time, I increase the width in the same time, all the volumes are constant:


* D66.png (29.41 kB . 1175x457 - viewed 5386 times)
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy without friction
Post by: LB7 on 12/12/2017 23:09:17
I use two devices, one the green line attract, the other the green line push the blue spheres. One it is the green line that moves to the right, the other it is the top that moves to the left. The 2 devices has the white shapes inside. I cancel the force on the central axis At: friction from one At of the device 1 and the At of the device 2:


* at.png (37.86 kB . 1163x466 - viewed 5399 times)



* d55.png (131.3 kB . 1073x748 - viewed 5573 times)


* d56.png (58.13 kB . 1087x230 - viewed 5359 times)


* d578.png (2.01 kB . 266x205 - viewed 5402 times)
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy without friction
Post by: LB7 on 12/12/2017 23:33:17
OR: I suppress the walls, how ? Imagine the main shape is an empty cylinder :


* images.png (21.27 kB . 233x216 - viewed 5354 times)

Like that, I have only a part with blue sphere and another part with white shapes, in fact it is the device:


* s9r.png (66.26 kB . 1071x221 - viewed 5336 times)

It is like roll a sheet of paper to create a cylinder.

Like that, I don't lost any energy from the wall because there is no walls. I win an energy from the white disks or from the move out/in of the spheres (it depends of the mechanism but the energy is the same). I win an energy from the green line.

The only problem: if I put the spheres in a cylinder, it is like the pressure goes to infinite because the next pressure is higher than the last but it is a cylinder, there is no last/next...

So if there is no problem from the pressure it could be ok.
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy without friction
Post by: LB7 on 13/12/2017 08:30:24
there is a lateral movement !

 [ Invalid Attachment ]
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy without friction
Post by: LB7 on 13/12/2017 18:07:14
Look, S2>S1 I win an energy from the movement of the blue spheres to the right.


* f5.png (34.74 kB . 1185x460 - viewed 5326 times)

Without the white shape:

The walls (left and right) need -0.207
The springs lost -0.207
The green line wins +0.414

With the white square:

The walls (left and right) need -0.207
The springs lost -0.207 (the presence of the white shape doesn't change the difference of energy because the white square rotates)
The green line wins +0.414 (there is the same force on the gree line because the black arm which the white square is attached to the green line)

The difference of energy comes from the lateral movement !
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy without friction
Post by: LB7 on 13/12/2017 18:42:35
With a helice, there is a torque on it. If I recover the torque from the green line, there is a rotation and the green line receives a torque but it moves in translation:


* df5.png (42.63 kB . 1187x429 - viewed 5334 times)

or better with:


* d66.png (37.08 kB . 1057x401 - viewed 5310 times)

I need a torque on the white object
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy without friction
Post by: LB7 on 14/12/2017 08:57:26
with that:

 [ Invalid Attachment ]
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy without friction
Post by: LB7 on 15/12/2017 21:02:38
Without the white shape the energy is conserved: the green line won the energy that the walls and the springs lost

With the white shape, the green line won the same, the walls lost the same, the difference of potential energy (springs) is the same because the length of the black arm is constant, the mean of the distance from the edge of the left wall is the same for the white shape, and like that the sum of energy is conserved BUT there is a work from the rotation of the white shape relatively to the axis A4:


* sq10.png (40.59 kB . 1027x374 - viewed 5267 times)

Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy without friction
Post by: LB7 on 16/12/2017 20:39:57
Maybe I can use a fixed line (to the ground) to cancel a part of the force the left white shape:


* frd3.png (30.05 kB . 1193x415 - viewed 5209 times)

An example with 3 positions, the force of the left white shape can be cancelled by the fixed black line:


* rf66.png (31.1 kB . 783x418 - viewed 5210 times)

An example with a small angle:


* fds3.png (35.17 kB . 783x402 - viewed 5217 times)
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy without friction
Post by: LB7 on 17/12/2017 15:39:42
hey, I can use friction between disks:

 [ Invalid Attachment ]
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy without friction
Post by: LB7 on 17/12/2017 21:20:25
Maybe like that, a force from the left wall cost/gives nothing:


* sz3.png (53.67 kB . 1176x451 - viewed 2217 times)


* rf9.png (47.84 kB . 1160x456 - viewed 2184 times)

Like always: no mass, no friction, all volumes constant, the blue color is small spheres like molecules of water but without mass and friction, each blue sphere is attract by a spring, all springs are attached on the green line, the orientation of the springs are all the same at a time, the orientation of the springs is the same than the left wall (or the right), the force of the spring is constant: don't depend of the length of the spring, the red line shows the orientation of the springs.



* rd6.png (47.74 kB . 1162x444 - viewed 2162 times)
Title: Re: Deform a device and lost an energy without friction
Post by: LB7 on 18/12/2017 20:36:15
With the calculations


* gst96.png (103.22 kB . 1169x768 - viewed 2092 times)

Or like that it is more easier:


* fth2.png (49.28 kB . 1112x468 - viewed 1976 times)